Glass Message Board
Glass Mall => Glass News => Topic started by: scimiman on May 09, 2009, 12:02:26 PM
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It would appear that after the Fieldings auction held on April 18th in which a large amount of Okra went on sale 95% of which did not have any signatures is now appearing with false signatures on.
Two ebay auctions one of which is a Merlins Web vase is dated 92. This is impossible as this is a Morecroft piece and wasn't made until at least 1997. The other piece a Tazza was sold at Fieldings together with a number of other pieces all of which it states in the catalogue are unsigned. This has now appeared magically with Okra 92 RPG. Both signatures have been done by the same person but both signatures are fakes.
95% of the Okra sold at Fieldings was in fact seconds or pieces that Richard was not happy with he often gave these to a person that Richard new on the understanding none of it would ever go on the market and be offered for sale.
There will probably be allot more of this appearing so be warned. Always ask either myself if unsure or Okra glass we will be only to happy to authenticate signatures and pieces.
I also notice that there appears to be allot of fake Whitefriars appearing. Where is it all coming from.
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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While speaking of forgeries... There are a lot of Kralik and early Loetz pieces showing up on eBay with a two line "Loetz, Austria" signature. Many of the pieces are documented Kralik. A few are c 1900 iridescent Loetz that were rarerly or never signed. I consider these added sigs scratches even when the attribution is correct.
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Mike, do you have access to one of these recently "signed" pieces? If so could you add a picture so members will know what to watch out for please? I think we should also move this to Glass News as it will disappear from view in Glass all too quickly.
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Hi Anne,
Yes it can go anywhere that gives it the best chance of being seen. I was unsure in which Cat to put it in.
Here are a couple of pics.
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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And here is another pic
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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Super, thanks Mike. I'll move it to News now, and can I add the pics into the Fake Signatures album on GlassGallery as well please?
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I just spoke to Okra and they are going to have a look at this site.
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Simon, You say that in a threatening manor, Why. :huh:
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'No Threats' they didn't know it was being talked about and they are concerned. Someone in the states was actively copying Dave Reekies work the other day.
If you sent a photo they would make a 'Likeness' not copy I think the words where being banded around of anything you wanted. It turned out be the technical guys that some glass makers or
designers use, to make their work which they put there names on it. It was the glass experts doing it for themselves. >:D
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Its not the work that is being copied. The pieces are definitely okra and were sold by Fielding's some weeks before without any signatures on. Then suddenly they appear with forged Okra signatures. Richard and I have spoken at length over these pieces so there is nobody in the dark about these pieces at Okra.
I would have thought that had you checked my website properly which is full of only okra you would have put 2 & 2 together and not come up with the answer 5
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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Mike I was passing on another story. You seem a little touchy I myself have a very large bowl Richard gave me when he worked here because I ask if I could have it because he was using it to keep the door open. I assume Richard is learning a hard lesson at the moment. I suggest you contact Will at Fieldings to tell him whats going on because they will details of the buyers and sellers and I asumme Fieldings will not be too best pleased either that works going through there door is ending up like this. It's plain forgery and a matter for the police.
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Simon,
I'm sorry but you have completely lost me. :huh:
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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Mike, if what your saying that this work was never meant for sale, but it now has been. Also now with a false signature added it's no longer seconds glass but now being passed off into the main stream as signed off work. Its bad news for Richard and it's illegal who ever is doing it is breaking the law. They are passing it of as the real deal. It dilutes the market and makes buyers wary, with this sort of goings on. They should be stopped.
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Simon - I think you're misunderstanding what's being said here - the glass are originals, not seconds or fakes, they were sold at auction recently and have since re-surface on the market with the addition of dodgy signatures.
I think that's right isn't it Scimiman?
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Hooray :hiclp:
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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But Pip, Mike said in his first post at the top...
95% of the Okra sold at Fieldings was in fact seconds or pieces that Richard was not happy with
I can see where Simon's coming from - he is saying that this was unsigned glass from Okra which was given away and not meant to be sold - and that it's now being sold with added fake signatures and that is wrong. I agree, it is wrong.
I'm not honestly sure what Fieldings could do about it other than supply the details of who bought it to Okra, and then perhaps Richard could take up the matter with the police as the signatures are fraudulent.
Meanwhile, having the position made public here is helpful. What would also be useful would be details of the pieces from Fieldings auction catalogue with images if they are available and if Fieldings would allow them to be made public. Mike is that a possibility do you think?
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I'm not honestly sure what Fieldings could do about it other than supply the details of who bought it to Okra, and then perhaps Richard could take up the matter with the police as the signatures are fraudulent.
I completely understand Mike's concerns. There is no doubt that this behaviour is outrageous and unethical. But although I'm not a lawyer, I think this would be a very difficult case to prove and I would be surprised if the police showed much interest or indeed understood the ramifications as we see them. It would be different if the fraudulent signature were, say, Tiffany. To prove fraud, you would need to show that the buyer had paid considerably in excess of the value because of the signature. I think there are a lot of complicated issues here but I'm not sure that it will help if I were to elaborate, except to give the perpetrator ammunition.
Meanwhile, having the position made public here is helpful. What would also be useful would be details of the pieces from Fieldings auction catalogue with images if they are available and if Fieldings would allow them to be made public. Mike is that a possibility do you think?
The more we can do to ensure that people are aware of the difference between correct and incorrect signatures, the better.
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Hi Anne and Adam
Here is a link to Fieldings auction site showing the results and details of each lot in that sale.
http://www.fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/results.asp?menuItemOn=2&start=400&resultsSalesID=72 (http://www.fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/results.asp?menuItemOn=2&start=400&resultsSalesID=72)
Richard has always found it hard to say no to anyone so its not surprising that there are so many of these unsigned pieces out there. He received no money for them but didn't expect them to appear on the secondary market. However people do pass away and then the families move in for the divide and share routine and so its not surprising to see these pieces rearing their heads.
Fieldings couldn't give a rats A**e once they have their money as to what happens to them.
One thing to remember is that General Antique dealers and auction houses deal with thousands of different items and even with all the reference books and the Internet they cant be experts on every item. If however you use a dedicated dealer who deals in one type of article be it glass, furniture, clocks etc you can be 99.99999% sure you are buying what you are after. If at a later date its found not to be what both of you expected then your money is safe as I don't know of any dedicated dealer that would not refund your money. A few years ago I brought, From Fieldings a piece of Okra with Loetz signed on the base and declared as Loetz in the catalogue, it was clear to me that this was a piece of Okra and it goes to show how easy it is even for a so called expert auction house that they can get it wrong.
The people that do this sort of thing are despicable and they are only in it for the short haul, its down to the rest of us to be vigilant and bring to the attention to such forums as this what is happening. Their actions bring a cost down on all honest dealers no matter what they trade in as the public trust us to be honest and to know our stuff but when a member of the general public has their fingers burnt we all take the back lash as their general feeling of distrust are given over to all of us.
In the next few weeks I am going to put on my website examples of fake Okra signatures I have come across over the years and also to show examples of the genuine signatures which have changed over the years.
The police? Its just not worth it. They cant be bothered to investigate Millions of £'s of credit card fraud so they are hardly likely to get themselves involved in this type of thing.
I hope this now clarifies the situation a little better.
Mike www.abgfabglass.co.uk
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for the link. A number of pieces are described as "unfinished" but many more as trials. Are these all Richard's giveaways or could you let us have the respective lot numbers?
In the next few weeks I am going to put on my website examples of fake Okra signatures I have come across over the years and also to show examples of the genuine signatures which have changed over the years.
This is a tricky conundrum. I can see that you want to inform the public, which is admirable. Have you considered that by showing the genuine signatures like this against the fakes, you could also be explaining to a potential forger exactly how to recreate a signature so that it looks genuine?
The forger could be out there reading this board, with a load of "stock" ready to sign, rubbing his hands with glee at the prospect of free advice how to make his forgeries look even more genuine.
I have to admit that I don't have the answer to this. :(
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Hi Adam
The terms Unfinished and Trial are purely Fieldings terminology.
I think the term Unfinished applies to pieces that are clearly broken pieces like a vase which has been cut down and ground. Then there are Perfume Bottles which have not got their stoppers.
As for the term Trial you would have to ask Fieldings.
Richard is notoriously lazy at signing his work. His thinking is and I quote 'You can see if its made by me' In all the years I have dealt with Richard I have always got him to sign fully all his pieces and to include the word Trial if applicable.
I am almost certain the person who was to blame for these forged signature pieces knows that we know who it is and has stopped putting pieces out to auction on Ebay and home counties Auction Houses. Richard is one of the nicest people I have ever known and its alien to Richard that anyone would want to do this.
I do feel that Auction Houses have a part to play in all of this by actioning 'Due Diligence' on any of the items they sell.
I know they sell thousands of pieces in a sale but that is their job and as far as I can see they are only doing part of it, selling and taking the money. How many times have you seen an auction catalogue 'Signed and dated' on a lot. Well what good is that? Its just that little bit harder to actually put down what the sig and date is. Its just pure laziness and cant be bothered.
I think the same as you with regard to posting of Fake & Genuine signatures which is why I haven't as yet published them. I am of the thought that it is still very difficult even when you know how a piece is signed to actually do it and the people that commit this crime aren't that great at the detail. Its still up for more thought before I publish anything on this subject.
One last thing 'BUYER BEWARE'
Mike www.abfabglass.co.uk
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I agree with Adam that having the sig comparisons images online would be helping the perpetrator, it was images of the pieces that have been doctored that I was thinking of. Thanks for the link to the auction listing page too Mike.