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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Patrick on April 24, 2006, 09:05:39 AM

Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Patrick on April 24, 2006, 09:05:39 AM
Hi, This " is it whitefriars " question started so well....... Then deteriated into total abuse !
http://www.whitefriars.com/isit_contents.php?pageNum_Recordset4=6&ID=3317
 Check it out.
 Regards Patrick.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 24, 2006, 09:27:21 AM
Hi Patrick,
First of all, I am not going to comment on the thread on this particular posting.....or any other for that matter, it wouldn't be proper not having been involved myself.

As for these vases, I get totally confused myself  :? , having only handled a finger vase (which is mine) and remembering my mum having a bark vase when I was a child.
There is another posting, Ref 3378, where the 2 vases shown, look identical, to me anyhow, to the vases now in question. Those are given as being Whitefriars.
I have scoured the catalogues and the 'Is It' section and could only find one picture of the base of a 'true' bark vase, I don't even know if the bases are similar.
I have 2, also similar, vases which are not Whitefriars, but if one looks through the catalogues, as always advised when someone posts, the sizes of mine are identical to those of one of the Whitefriars Bark vases.
As a lover of textured glass, but totally ignorant about the 'feel' of Whitefriars glass, I can see why people do get confused and misled.

Your question was however, are they Whitefriars? Quite honestly I dont know :oops:  :oops:  and they would have fooled me.
Are they Davidson Luna? No, I don't believe they are.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Glen on April 24, 2006, 10:09:16 AM
I posted a query a few years back on "Is it Whitefriars?" re. some vases I thought could be Davidson's Luna or perhaps Whitefriars. I finally found the answer myself a couple of years later - they turned out to be Oberglas of Austria! That was a surprise.

I'm not saying the ones referred to here are Oberglas, of course - and frankly I know nothing about Whitefriars - but I thought I'd throw my own limited experience of "Is it Whitefriars?" into the melting pot.

Glen
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 24, 2006, 11:21:21 AM
Another option, posted by our own Ivo a few days ago;

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,5134

 :P  :P
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Ivo on April 24, 2006, 11:40:30 AM
WHILE we're on the subject

(http://i3.tinypic.com/wb7yao.jpg)

Can anyone confirm that this massive monster (21 cm / 8" across) is a Luna?
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: David E on April 24, 2006, 11:47:42 AM
If you mean Davidson's Luna pattern, then I think definitely not.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Ivo on April 24, 2006, 11:52:09 AM
back to square one, then. :-)
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Anne E.B. on April 24, 2006, 01:30:29 PM
Ivo - I have a Luna pattern bowl.  The surface texture is different from yours and the glasss is considerably thinner too.  I like yours -  Swap? :lol:
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Patrick on April 24, 2006, 09:28:07 PM
Hi DELTAB, Thanks for your comments, The 2 bark vases on http://www.whitefriars.com/isit_contents.php?pageNum_Recordset4=1&ID=3378 are definarley Whitefriars.... Very rare medium Sky Blue value circa 800.00 plus for the pair. I thaught you may be interested in the value incase you see any in this colour in you travels.. The smaller versions are worth evem more!   Regards Patrick.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 24, 2006, 09:46:16 PM
Hi Patrick,
Thanks for the information.
I didn't doubt for one moment that they are Whitefriars. I was just trying to explain that, for a novice, identification is very difficult. I have not yet found a site where there is a clear photo of the base, a photo from above or a close up of the pattern  :? . I do understand the frustration of the experts when these similar vases are posted again and again, but I also empathise with the novices when they are fooled into believing that they are purchasing a genuine Whitefriars article. Catalogues are wonderful for reference purposes, but again they show no pictures of bases etc.
I know I scoured the catalogues before I posted my vases on the Is It section, but everything, as far as I could see :oops:  :oops:  was in keeping with the sizes, colour etc. Fortunately, I bought mine for a euro and they wern't sold to me as anything other than a vase and at the time Whitefriars wasn't a sought after item. I bought them becasue I liked them. I still don't know who made them :roll: , but I am not too worried about it. :)

You never know, one day I may find one of the Sky Blue ones :wink:  :lol:  even here in Holland.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: paradisetrader on April 24, 2006, 10:26:06 PM
Della
The differences in photos is subtle unless you have a trained eye in which case the crimped rim is a dead give-away.

Once you have handled both WF and these the differences are absolutely clear. No pics of bases are needed.

It has been mentionned previously that in the Mistaken Identities section of www.whitefriars.com there are indeed many mistaken identities. These have arisen from the opinions of posters there whose focus is on Whitefriars. Anything less is inferior in quality whatever it is. Mistaken attributions take on a life of their own. Understandable but incorrect.

I agree with the poster who identified these as Royal Castle.

It's a pity that so many misunderstandings and animosities arose during that discussion. Happily we have been free from such here for quite some time. Long may that continue.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: David E on April 24, 2006, 10:34:39 PM
Quote
It's a pity that so many misunderstandings and animosities arose during that discussion. Happily we have been free from such here for quite some time. Long may that continue.

Couldn't agree more. The virtiolic manner of some posters on wf.com leaves me staggered – I really cannot understand why it has descended to such a level.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 24, 2006, 10:38:52 PM
Thanks Peter, much appreciated.
I am not sure as to whether the need for photos can be dispelled. From the one tiny photo that I have seen of a base, I would be have been able to discount the ones I have. So for someone who really would like to collect, that would be at least one pitfall out of the way.
Luckily, I just buy what I like, anything from Johansfors to Murano. The monetary value is of little interest to me. I only like identification for 2 reasons:

1. The knowledge gathered along the way, which leads to spotting a piece you already have, combined with the satisfaction after the frustration :twisted:  :lol:

2.When I die, my kids know what they are selling. 8)

We are a friendly bunch here....aren't we? :)
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: paradisetrader on April 24, 2006, 11:30:52 PM
Well lets see what you've got !
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 25, 2006, 07:20:18 AM
Quote from: "Peter"
Well lets see what you've got !


Ooh...err :wink:  :lol:

Do you mean the 2 vases which I thought were Whitefriars, or my glass collection?

If the latter, I will take some photos this afternoon. :D
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 25, 2006, 11:00:08 AM
These are the 2 which I thought were. :oops:  :oops: This photo was taken with a cheap camera a good while ago, so quality not brilliant, but they can be seen on photo 2 below.
(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10026/thumb_bark.JPG) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-550)

Here is a small amount of my collection:

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10026/thumb_glasstop.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1626)(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10026/thumb_glass1%262.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1628)(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10026/thumb_glass3%264.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1627)
 :shock: Click to enlarge :shock:

I have lots more, Carnival and other stuff, but thought this would do for now. :)
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: paradisetrader on April 25, 2006, 02:38:44 PM
Yep I reckon you qualify as a fully-blown glasaholic fruit and nut case, Della. Welcome to the club !

and as to your Whitefriars wanna-be's ....well, I think they are !
Better pics / cloes-ups would help.......but
I cannnot see any crimping at the rim.
The color and texture look good.
I note that these are cased in clear which makes them more likely also although the rare ones posted at IIWF were FLC - no clear casing, I seem to remember.
The weight would be interesting to know and a tell tale sign but anyway
hopefully the WF experts can confirm, which I am not.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 25, 2006, 03:09:13 PM
I am most definitely a fruit and nut case........and a glassaholic of course :wink:

Unfortunately, the guys on Whitefriars already confirmed that they weren't a Baxter creation. At least I am not the only one to be fooled by these though :?  :?

As to weight, 345g each. The base has a flat outer rim with a textured effect is still present in the middle, but as I previously said, I have only ever seen one tiny (not very clear, unable to enlarge) photo of the genuine article.

I have to make tea now, but will try and take better photos later. :)
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Leni on April 25, 2006, 03:25:28 PM
Erm ...... tentatively, 'cos I know you all know I'm not keen on Whitefriars .... if it's so hard to tell them apart, what makes the Whitefriars ones so much better than the other makes?  :oops: (http://www.smileys.ws/smls/confused/00000005.gif)

Please don't hit me!   :shock:
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 25, 2006, 03:48:25 PM
Leni, I wouldn't dare hit you, or even contemplate it.
As to your question, Leni.......I haven't got a clue. I just bought these a good while ago, before I had even heard of Whitefriars. :oops:  :oops:
It is not Whitefriars the name that attracts me, just textured glass. It could be Walther, Alsterbro, Johansfors etc, or just plain unknown.
I don't think that there is much chance of finding out who made them, but the one posted by David E in another thread is of a similar shape when seen from above.
I am still in the middle of seeing to all and sundry, but will take better photos.
 :roll:
Title: Post subject
Post by: vidrioguapo on April 25, 2006, 04:33:54 PM
Hi Della - ref. the photo of the two blue vases you have posted above. IMHO I do not think they are Whitefriars.

1) Don't know how tall yours are, but the average weight of my 6" bark vases (and I have just a few) is 750gm.

2) Colour - I know photos can distort the exact colour - but these do not look like a W/F Kingfisher blue to me, and neither are they the rare Sky Blue, which in any event are FLC (NO CLEAR CASING.)

3) Again, unless the angle of the photo is a bit off, they look disproportionally tall for their width/diameter.

Just my opinion.

However, if you didn't break the bank and you like them that's great.  Although I am a W/.F freak, I also just like interesting textured glass of any make, and buy that too.

PS Does ~Ingrid glas  ring any bells? Not sure if this has been mentioned, so sorry if I am repeating stuff.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 25, 2006, 04:39:39 PM
Okay, eveyone is fed and happy......for now at least.

Here goes with the new photos.

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10026/thumb_bark.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1634)(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10026/thumb_barkbase.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1633)Base(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10026/thumb_barkabove.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1632)From above(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10026/thumb_barkp.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-1631)Pattern
 :shock: Click to enlarge :shock:
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 25, 2006, 06:08:44 PM
Hi Emmi,
I don't for one minute doubt what you are saying. I have already been informed that they are not Whitefriars  :cry:  and I really do trust what I was told.
These are 7 1/2 inches tall and that is what made me believe, in the first instance, that they were, (before posting on Is It) at that time just having looked at the online catalogues and photos.
I have heard of Ingrid glass and I have some of that too, but I also don't think they are from there either. They are just too lightweight.
 :?  :? A conundrum, but nontheless, if me spending a few minutes making pictures helps novices that really do want to collect Whitefriars, they I have spent my time wisely :wink:  :lol:
My learning curve continues :D  :D
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: paradisetrader on April 25, 2006, 07:53:03 PM
Quote
The base has a flat outer rim with a textured effect is still present in the middle

Ahh you didn't tell me that !!!
I had assumed a flat polished base with or without a polished pontil - I'm not sure which is normal for this equivilant model.
Also 345g seems very light compared to WF.

I admit I thought they were Sky Blue and didn't realise that they were only produced in FLC

Personally, as they are not WF, I find them even more interesting !!!
I can't afford to be a WF fan in any case.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 25, 2006, 08:12:49 PM
:oops:  :oops: Sorry Peter, my fault and my apologies.


I find them interesting for the same reason. I never know if I will just come accross one with a label on one day.

I can't afford Whitefriars either, the one that I did get was purely by chance and only cost a few euros (pictured second photo, bottom row left.) I will make do with him for now. :lol:  :lol:
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Leni on April 25, 2006, 09:04:51 PM
Quote from: "Leni"
.... if it's so hard to tell them apart, what makes the Whitefriars ones so much better than the other makes?

I really did mean this as a serious question!  :shock:  

Anyone feel able to say?   :?
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 25, 2006, 09:09:59 PM
I honestly don't know Leni. Maybe Emmi can answer that one.
It is probably the same as a family with twins, they can tell them apart, whilst others struggle for years to work out which is which,  :? even though each is an individual and probably very different.
Title: Post subject
Post by: vidrioguapo on April 25, 2006, 09:38:57 PM
Well thanks a bunch for giving me the opportunity to answer the hardest question in earth!!  Can't you ask someone else!!! LOL  I think the "twins"  thing may just about be right.

When I first decided to concentrate on W/F I made many purchasing mistakes partly from my own ignorance and partly from "dealers" who thought they knew it all or were deliberately hoodwinking me,whatever.

I'll try and list a few things...
1) Colour. Important to get your "eye" in on at least recognising W/F colours even if the names of the colour escapes the brain.
2) Weight.  usually heavier than any look-a-like I've come across
3) Texture - W/F have a very distinctive texture on the INSIDE , almost like stacks of irregular shaped cushions, quite different from the bark effect on the outside.  I haven't got a Davidson to hand, but I know it's different.  Royale Castle on the inside is a vertical texture as well has having the distinctive "crimped" rim.
4) Overall a better feel and quality (but that may be in the eye of the beholder as far a sosme people think)

I'm sure  I am not telling you anything you don't know already, but point (3) I always find a good one to keep in mind.  Hope this helps.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: paradisetrader on April 25, 2006, 10:06:51 PM
Leni,
As I tried to point out in previous response, its only hard to tell them apart from photos.  Physically side-by-side there would be no difficulty and no competition.
The more tactile qualities of many kinds of glass often fail to reveal themselves in even the best photos.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: vidfletch on April 25, 2006, 11:57:36 PM
Apart from the physical or visual differences between all these vases there is in most cases a huge difference in weight and quality compared to Whitefriars bark vases.

The other thing of course is the value but that's not Whitefriars fault of course! LOL!!!

Odd thing with a lot of Whitefriars glass is that it when it is Whitefriars it's obvious. Every so often though there are pieces that are so similar or obscure that it takes a bit of detective work.

A lot of early Baxter and pre-Baxter items can be very difficult to tell. They are just not as common.

Vidfletch :D
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: David555 on April 26, 2006, 01:10:29 AM
HI

In my personal opinion Della your vases are by Ingridglas.

I have similar textured vases and candle holders in red, blue and amethyst. I had some pieces posted for months before I found some similar pieces with the Ingridglas label and a discussion was started link (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,3357.0.html)

I always think the Ingridglas bark range looks less defined and a bit like melted wax.

Thanks

Adam P
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 26, 2006, 08:51:30 AM
I think Leni's question is actually what makes Whitefriars better and so desirable
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Leni on April 26, 2006, 09:01:55 AM
Thanks for your help, everyone   :D

I guess because they aren't really my style, I just haven't looked closely at Whitefriars - or the similar-but-not-as-good ones!   :roll:  Next time I see one 'in the flesh / glass' I will pay more attention and see if I can learn something  :oops:   :wink:
Title: Post subject
Post by: vidrioguapo on April 26, 2006, 09:16:48 AM
Christine, you are right, I misread things...so I needn't have put all that stuff on.  What makes them so desirable?  I guess you could ask that question about anything....men in particular...I have certainly desired some odd ones in my time  LOL!  So don't think I can answer that one,.
Title: Re: Post subject
Post by: Leni on April 26, 2006, 09:26:12 AM
Quote from: "vidrioguapo"
I guess you could ask that question about anything....men in particular...

And some who look good at a distance turn out to be of inferior quality when you get 'up close and personal'  :lol:  
OK, I take your point  :roll:  :wink:
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Glen on April 26, 2006, 09:27:40 AM
Often, it's simply the fact that other people desire them too, that makes people want things. If no-one expresses an interest, then desire often wanes.
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/Cartoon2.html
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/Cartoon3.html

I'll report again on the desirability factor on Sunday. Watch this space.

Glen
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: paradisetrader on April 26, 2006, 09:31:03 AM
Quote
I think Leni's question is actually what makes Whitefriars better and so desirable.

Simply ....quality
Quality of the the glass, of the molding, of the finish and of the colors.
On the textured pieces the texturing is more interesting and complex than the wanna be's.
The weight is important and has been mentioned several times.

All this from a non-WF collector - so no bias here !!!
BUT the thirst for quality, modern mid-century glass has been such that WF has now become over-rated in the marketplace.

In textured, iittala is of similar quality but only in clear.
In design and color some Blenko is equal if not better but not readily available in UK.
In non-textured Holmegaard, Caithness and other Scandi are equal if not better in quality and certainly stylish but not quite as adventurous in design.  

Quality-wise Royal Crowne / Royal Castle & Oberglas are a travesty in comparison. Ingridglass just inferior but by not so much - some styles are good but the colors nowhere near as brilliant. Ravenhead is mass produced, light weight and glassware only.

All in all Whitefriars did carve out a special niche in the UK market which worked well for a long time and it's a great pity they didn't survive.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 26, 2006, 11:41:40 AM
Thank you Peter. Think I need to go and handle some textured glass :lol:
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: robbo on April 28, 2006, 06:42:06 PM
Quote from: "Lustrousstone"
Think I need to go and handle some textured glass :lol:

I took a comparative photo of some of the barks I've got...so here's my effort! left to right, a pair of Whitefriars barks in Kingfisher, an Iittala Timo Sarpaneva Finlandia green/grey bowl, a Kumela vase designed by Kai Blomqvist.

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10019/barks.jpg
Sorry about the reflections :roll:

robbo
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 28, 2006, 07:22:25 PM
Thanks Robbo, these are very different and it would be interesting to see them with some wannabes
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: robbo on April 28, 2006, 07:46:49 PM
Hi Lustrousstone,
Thanks for your comment - I just wanted to get them together, because there are so many influences going on. I have one of the Royal Castle/Ravenshead (as vidfetch has confimed) ones (somewhere at the back of a cupboard LOL!) I think the Kumela comes out rather well  :lol: a very under-rated producer IMHO (more ice/rock-cliff than bark 8)  ). I just wish I had one of the purple ones as well!

robbo
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: David555 on April 28, 2006, 09:44:22 PM
Hi

There is a lot going on in this thread, Della posted some pictures (ref possible Ingridglas pieces) - and people were commenting so I threw in my two pennies :?

I can sort of see what people are asking, why is W/F so special, why are W/F bark vases so special?

Every single one is different – ‘The three part wooden pattern moulds lined with tree bark' (L Jackson pp89) were burned into by the glass and the bark lining mutated ready for the next vase.

That is what makes a bark vase - the use of bark/wood - this gives a very special, unique and natural feel to each piece.

The same can be said of the Finlandia vase by Timo Sarpaneva - The mould was scorched each time making a subtle difference to the next vase.

These vases using natural materials hold a special place in my heart compared to the mass produced copies which are all moulded the same.

I do like other textured vases, but technically speaking they are not bark.

Adam P
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: Della on April 28, 2006, 09:57:30 PM
Hi Adam,

Not sure how, but I missed your reply.......sorry dear. :oops:

I have an Ingrid glass piece, it is heavy, thick and chunky (all sort of the same description I suppose :D ) My blue ones are actually quite delicate, but you still could be correct with you attribution.

I am not too worried about giving them a makers name, however, I still have NOT seen a photo of the base of a Whitefriars bark vase, maybe you can do the honours? :lol:

I know photos aren't always the answer, as there is more to it, but the more one is armed with information, the less mistakes will be made and fewer people will be misled.
Title: Are they Davidsons Luna or Whitefriars ??????
Post by: David555 on April 28, 2006, 10:24:59 PM
No need to apologise Della, such a long thread with so many points of view.

I was kinda saying your blue vases (good photos) deserved an attribution - I have a had a closer look at pics in your files and you are right about the large green piece being Ingridglas, but you know that already - your blue vases do have a very thin rim and wall structure, never spotted that in the posted photos - I take back Ingridglas even though the slumped textural effect is similar.

I have W/F coffin vases but no actual straight sided bark vases till early next week.

eBay showing all aspects of a bark vase including base link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Whitefriars-Baxter-Tangerine-Bark-Vase-No-9690-c-1970_W0QQitemZ7409209891QQcategoryZ64877QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

                         

Can someone post a picture for this sweet lady - pewter or flint works best I feel, tangerine and ruby, etc. feed too much colour back.

I have tons of bark vase pictures, but none of the bases (yet I am sure I have taken some when the number sticker was still attached :? ) - mmmmm, I must store a few when I get some in.