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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on February 03, 2013, 08:00:31 PM

Title: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 03, 2013, 08:00:31 PM
Just curious on this vase
the blue and white graphic pattern are overlay I think, but how is the vine and grapes pattern done?
Is it enamels?
And anyone seen anything like this before?

Mod: link to ebay listing removed at M's request as she's added photos below.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Ivo on February 03, 2013, 08:52:08 PM
Borussia glass cut to a high standard I think - but it may have been a berluze at one time?= Very nice piece - technically.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 03, 2013, 09:02:07 PM
yes I thought cut down.
Not heard of Borussia so thanks Ivo :)
I will investigate.
Is the vine decoration cut or enamelled do you know please?
thanks
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: KevinH on February 04, 2013, 01:26:14 AM
It all looks acid treated to me, perhaps with final hand cutting to tidy up edges. The remaining clear parts seem to have the allover randomised finish that is typical with acid.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 04, 2013, 07:16:06 PM
thank you :)
I thought because of the leaves and grapes that it might be a decanter that's lost it's neck and stopper? I bought it only for the decoration as I'd not seen anything like it before (the leaves and grapes bit of it), so I'll be interested to see what turns up.  I'm hoping it's cut to clear and that the leaves and grapes are cameo  ;D, but that's a long shot lol  ...  I'll let you know what it turns out to actually be when it arrives.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 05, 2013, 10:45:19 AM
wow, wow and  :o it's beautiful and is it possible it's carved cameo I think with an acid wash over the design?  - you can feel all the carving and layers and see where some parts have been carved out and the blue layer has been left etc but I don't honestly know.
It's been cut at the neck to save it, and bevelled and then polished  - not surprisingly since it's a beautiful piece of work.
Cut to clear on the shiny 'graphic' borders.
The base has a very large polished pontil mark and is worn to matt round the edges.
At 2" tall it's a biggish piece.  Imagine having the decanter undamaged and a set of glasses to match  :o
I'll add some close ups on the next post.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 05, 2013, 10:47:36 AM
close ups added to above
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 06, 2013, 01:25:31 PM
does anyone have any books with this type of cameo glass in please?  Does the Langhammer book have any in if anyone has it?
I've found three engraved cameo pieces dating to 1845/50 ish and with the overlay decoration, but none have three layers, only two, being the blue cut to clear with the cameo engraving.  One was on red.  The scrolls decoration on the pieces seem very similar to this.  But two were signed and this is not.
I;'m working on the premise this piece probably dates to around this period and is not a later c 1890 or even 1915 type piece.
I've added a cropped close up of the cameo.
Interestingly acid etched cameo engraving was used in Bohemia mid 19th century.  I'd always assumed this was a later technique starting around 1890 ish or at least, the latter part of the century.
I'm going to send it to the V&A and ask for some help as well.
thanks for looking :)
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 07, 2013, 07:34:37 PM
I believe this was made in 1860.  I don't think I will find the name of the artist - I had thought maybe Karl Pfohl but as far as I can find, it's unknown except it was made in North Bohemia.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Ivo on February 07, 2013, 08:37:38 PM
Bravo - that was most efficient sluithing.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 08, 2013, 03:01:51 PM
thank you -  my searching in German is improving all the time :)

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 27, 2013, 12:51:56 AM
I've been doing quite a bit of research on this vase and debating whether or not to return to the thread, as I'm slightly wary of being shot down in flames  :)  As usual however, I've decided that's ok  ;D \I think this is actually in interesting piece of glass  and perhaps I might get a definite id one day.

I’ll start by saying I think this is  possibly important regarding the technique and the date it was made.
The size I originally put on was a typo – it is actually 7” tall (originally would have been I think c.10” tall) and about 3 ½” wide at the body, so not a small piece.

From what I’ve found, my thoughts so far are:
- Made 1860
- Three layer hand carved cameo glass
- Blank blown at Harrachov
- Carved at Kamenicky Senov possibly
- Possibly by Karl Pfohl (or close contemporary but cannot find any evidence as to who else it might be)

Firstly, I have to say I'm a little curious as to why I've not been able to find any maker on it.  Or indeed any further information about it written anywhere, or precious little information on mid Century Bohemian cameo glass or the techniques used  by Franz Zach and Karl Pfohl for example.  I’ve read literally masses of books and articles on cameo glass now, and see much written about English cameo glass (acid etched and hand carved) and how it was important in the third quarter of the 19thcentury and on French Art Nouveau cameo glass (acid etched and hand carved), and I absolutely understand the importance of those pieces …  but this vase and similar pieces were made c.1860 or even possibly in the 1850s. Casing glass only started in the 1830’s.   Northwood’s Portland vase was not made until 1873.
Admittedly I don't have any books specifically on Biedermeier glass, but from the three other pieces  I have found and from what I have read so far, I have reason to believe my vase and the others, have not been investigated or identified anywhere else.  (Happy to be proved wrong   )
I'm open to correction and more information so if anyone has any please do correct me, or add to the thread - I would be very appreciative.

I sent some pictures to the V&A.  They had no information to offer me and suggested I contact one of the German museums.  I've not done so only because I've not found any definitive info on it, or on the only other two I’ve found that are the same and one that is remarkably similar.  In addition to which, I have in the past sent the odd question to museums and have received no reply.
 
With regards the V&A they agree my date of c.1860.
I inquired loosely about Franz Zach as the cameo effect is similar, although I did not think it was by Franz Zach.  They have said it is not.  I think I agree with this based on the few other items I’ve found that are his.  These appear to be figural  on one layer over clear, with the depth of the cameo cutting allowing more or less light through in much the same way as a porcelain lithophane does.  His pieces sometimes have decorated stylised borders. 
See Judith Miller, Page 117 of Decorative Arts: Style and Design from Classical to Contemporary
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X1cXb-wzy74C&pg=PA120&dq=overlay+glass+19th+century&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xJYsUemDBuLW0QXd_oD4Bg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=overlay%20glass%2019th%20century&f=false

however I also found this (see link to a piece sold through Fischer) so it does make me wonder
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/4984949
their reference is Ref: G. Höltl (Hrsg.): Das böhmische Glas, Band III, Passau 1995, 180ff. 
and this
http://www.auktion-bergmann.de/ufItemInfo.aspx?a_id=73&i_id=169286&s_id=6104
so if anyone owns these references and would be willing to look up to see if there are any others like mine I'd be eternally grateful as it's one I don't have.

An additional comment they made was :
‘The techniques used are not that of Franz Paul Zach, indeed this blue cut casing combined with different designs of engraved and etched scenes was popular in Bohemia at that time with a number of factories producing examples’.

Firstly regarding the ‘popularity’:
I have searched extensively, but although I can find a number of pieces in a similar ‘ ish’ vein, I can only find  two (possibly three) the same and one that is very similar (in the Corning) to mine. 

I just don’t think they were that prolific and I think that the pieces the V&A refer to are mostly two layer  and cameo engraved pieces i.e one colour over clear (see links I’ve given below to pieces similar to mine but only two layers).

Even without the cameo design in the middle of the body of the vase, I can’t think there were that many of the three (i.e. transparent or opaline base with two more coloured overlays on) layer pieces produced at this time,  given the difficulty of producing overlay glass - 

a)   I watched a recording of Reine Liefkes describing a piece in the V&A that they bought at the Great Exhibition and which dates to 1855. http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/g/glass-goblet-by-franz-paul-zach/
 It’s a Franz Zach blue over clear cameo cut and overlay cut footed bowl dating to the same period.  Admittedly it’s a massive piece of glass they are discussing.  But if you listen to the description of how difficult it was to make, they talk about the difficulty of the compatibility of the layers of glass and then also the difficulties in ensuring it annealed without cracking.  And then discuss that there one only one or two factories capable of producing this glass at that time and this was probably made at Neuwelt

b)   Also I’ve read much about the failure rate of the white over colour cameo glass produced in England and how difficult it was to produce - see Klein/Ward page 187 where they comment on the making of the Northwood blank in 1873:
‘Although cased glass had been made since the 1830’s, the manufacture of a cameo blank presented particular problems.  Not only did the white outer layer have to be of uniform thickness, but the white glass and the dark blue undercolour had to have the same coefficient of expansion and contraction to prevent the glass from cracking during the annealing process.’

c)   There is a book online written by David Whitehouse called English Cameo Glass in the Corning Museum of Glass and in it on page 7 under Preface he writes:
‘The first cameo glass vessels were made by the Romans between about 25 B.C. and A.D. 50. A handful of vessels were produced by Roman glassworkers in the fourth century A.D., rather
more were made by Islamic craftsmen between the ninth and 11th centuries, and Chinese glass cutters in and after the 18th century made more cameo glasses than all their predecessors combined. Nevertheless, cameo glass was comparatively rare until the late 19th century, when glassmakers in the Stourbridge area of central England produced tens of thousands of objects for consumption at home and abroad.’


 I believe that my piece was a technically difficult piece to make especially at the time it was made and given it is three layers and given the decoration on it.  So whilst they have said they were ‘popular’, I can’t think there were masses of them floating around.  If there were, I have not been able to find them having searched quite extensively.


With regards the seeming paucity of information on mid 19thcentury Cameo glass from Bohemia, it’s interesting that in that recording Liefkes says that the Franz Zach piece was ‘forgotten’ for a long time, being sent to reside at another of their museums ( the one that is now the museum of Childhood) until 1970, when it was ‘re-found’ and brought back to reside again as an important piece at the V&A. Another indication I think, of how little these mid 19thcentury Bohemian carved and overlay pieces were discussed,  by comparison to English Cameo glass of the third quarter 19th century and into the 20th century and Art Nouveau French cameo glass for example.

Secondly, the email from the V&A refers to these glass pieces as engraved and etched.  I wasn’t quite sure about this description :

- Cameo carving and engraving use similar techniques, i.e. wheels to create the effect, so I guess ‘engraving’ might be a description. 
- With regards the ‘etched’ I presume she is referring to the frosted effect on the body of the vase rather than that the decoration was   acid etched. 
- As far as I can tell from holding the vase and reading regarding similar pieces, this is cameo glass.  I had thought the decoration might have been etched initially and then with the blue layer hand carved in various depths and the final lines on the leaves etc. hand carved. However, you can see the white layer of glass around the blue all the way round the edges of every leaf and scroll and of course around the border. 
- So if for arguments sake we say some of the blue and white layers in between the decoration were initially acid etched to remove the colour back to clear (remembering though this was 1860 and Liefkes actually mentions in the recording transcript regarding the Franz zach piece dated 1855 that it was hand carved as that was a little before acid etching became used - and also in Klein/Ward’s book TheHistory of Glass pge 191 for example they talk about acid polishing replacing hand polishing in the 1880’s ),  then certainly the rest of it must have been hand carved including all the edges to reveal the white borders around the blue edges.
- So given the date of the piece, and the complexity of the design I can’t see how this could have been achieved, without hand carving it in the first place (open to correction if someone can explain how this might be possible to achieve via acid etching).  And the background is not totally smooth or even surfaced either.  By that I don’t mean it’s grainy or rough to touch but that if you feel the background it is slightly up and down in parts, not totally smooth, as though it was hand carved in the first place.
- The whole design looks as though it has been given an acid wash to make it satin after it was all finished.     

So I think the vase would have been blown with three layers - clear, cased in white and then cased in blue over the white, then hand carved, and then the design hand cut (as in cameo carved) on the blue, where it is most definitely raised in relief, and then acid washed to give that smooth satin finish to the design area only.  Finally, the geometric borders were polished.  As I say, I’m open to correction.

References of other pieces in a similar vein –
- These are the only two pieces I have found that I believe are the same maker as mine:
  The V&A agree the becher or beaker, is the same maker.  I didn’t send them a pic of the pink Stein, but I’m certain it’s also the same maker.  There is one other stein on there that appears to be the same blue version as mine but the picture is bad so I can’t see the detail so I’ve not included it). 
There is one other piece, a goblet – it is not exactly the same in that the picture is figural rather than the grapes and vine, but close up I can see it is done in the same way and has the polished geometric borders etc.  It is in the Corning and the link shows the techniques they have said the piece is made with.

a)becher originally in the JJ Ludwig Regensburg collection , a collection of a major antiques dealer and collector, and sold firstly in 2008 through Nagel and then again through Fischer. This is described only as North Bohemian, 1860.  I would have thought, given the collection it has come from and the two Auction Houses who have sold it, that if there was any evidence of maker or decorator available in literature one of those parties would have known about it.
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/210-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=102&artikel=26481&cHash=0e79a907d3

b) History of Beer Stein Glass  - third set of pictures down, left hand Stein, pink over white over clear with vines and grapes.   This site have the Josephinenhutte book and have identified other pieces on the site as either by, or probably by, Josephinenhutte.  The pink stein that is the same as mine has  not been identified, which leads me to believe there is nothing in the book to link them to Josephinenhutte.  I have also not been able to find another piece that is in any way similar enough to link Josephinenhutte to being the possible maker.
http://www.beerstein.net/articles/bsb-6.htm

c) Covered goblet in the Corning museum identified as Karl Pfohl, North Bohemia – I presume they mean Karl Pfohl was the decorator rather than also the blank maker and that they refer to North Bohemia as the place it was made.
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/covered-goblet-5#.US0fyzCeN_V

- The pieces below are a similar style to mine but not the same

1)   Three colour blue on white on clear with carved figural picture and geometric borders.  In close up you can see the carving is done in the same way as my vase although the picture is figural:
This first has no id for maker or decorator and is dated c.1850.  It is described as acid-etched cameo.  Given other descriptions I’ve read from the Corning,  I think it was probably engraved or cut and then frosted rather than the picture being created by acid etching.
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/property-from-the-collection-of-carl-desantis/lot.208.lotnum.html

The techniques described by the Corning as used on this next piece, are engraved, pressed, frosted, cut.  I’m not entirely sure where ‘pressed’ comes in as it is a blown piece, but nowhere is it described as acid etched. They have it identified as by Karl Pfohl and made in Northern Bohemia
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/covered-goblet-5#.US0uuTCeN_V

2)   Two colour only  - white overlay on transparent colour body with matt   Cameo cut design and polished geometric white overlay cut borders:
http://www.glaskilian.de/Biedermeier-Lithophanieschnitt.640+B6YmFja1BJRD02NDAmcHJvZHVjdElEPTIzMzAwJnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTY0MCZkZXRhaWw9.0.html

http://www.rubylane.com/item/518922-1998-17/Antique-Bohemian-Harrach-Cameo-Art

3)   Engraved in a similar way to mine but only two colours, not three:
Karl Pfohl glass red overlay on clear glass body cameo engraved (same as mine) http://www.papilio.cz/en/archiv.php?aukce=a28&pol=9795&PHPSESSID=b845bfad3169855d341788addbeb3227

Figural Chalice made at Harrachov and decorated by Karl Pfohl Kamenicky Senov  where if you click on it, you can see the cameo carving is done in the same way as that on the blue layer on my vase (scroll down to second picture)
http://www.prazskagalerie.cz/en/news/from-editorial/crisis-and-boom-in-glass-and-jewellery-industry-1


Two colour blue overlay on clear with polished geometric borders and satin finish engraved cameo picture, a
Karl Pfohl goblet sold at Sotheby’s – blue overlay on clear with polished blue overlay on clear geometric borders and satin finish ‘acid cameo’ (their description – the Corning (see below) do not use this description)  blue picture on the clear background
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/property-from-the-collection-of-carl-desantis/lot.205.lotnum.html

Karl Pfohl goblet in the Corning where the description is ‘blown, overlaid, cut, engraved’ and nowhere it is described as acid-etched. Id’d as by Karl Pfohl -  North Bohemia,  Kamenicky Senov
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/goblet-896?sm_actor_name=Pfohl%252C%2520Karl&sort=bs_has_image%20desc%2Cscore%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&object=1#.US0rQTCeN_V

I’m interested to hear of any leads or information if anyone has seen anything similar to my piece and am open to correction on any of the above
Thanks for taking the time to read if you got this far – I hope some of it was interesting.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 27, 2013, 02:32:40 AM
Just to add I was checking some dates and rereading the references and have found Northwood's first cameo piece was
'About 1856, he produced a white-over-blue vase depicting Perseus and Andromeda' - Source David Whitehouse reference as in previous post.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Ivo on February 27, 2013, 07:15:02 AM
Add one more paragraph and you' ve got a book - a nice book. I am sure there will be other things to add on the origins of cameo ... but so far no tendency to shoot you down in flames. On the contrary!
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Frank on February 27, 2013, 12:17:41 PM
Excellent - I guess you need to get a peek into the Passau museum books next.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 27, 2013, 01:04:41 PM
Thank you Ivo and Frank :)
Yes Frank, I need a couple of books - the Passau volume being one of them.
However, as I say below I do have the Nagel Auction books of the JJ Ludwig collection auctioned in 2008.  It was a very important and massive collection of antiques.  There are many many 19th century Bohemian bechers and other glass in the collection.  The Passau books were known about then and of course the museum, and the collection was German, yet, there are only some specific references and id's so I don't hold out much hope.

I'm not adding a paragraph  ;D but it did occur to me that there is one important name I've found missing from my text above who really should be included for reference.  That is Carl Günther , Steinschönau.  Whilst he did not sign his work there are a few pieces attributed to him online and they do have some similarities.
Again I'm open to correction, but instinctively I do not think he is in the running for making my piece - there are too many differences in the way his are made e.g. the ones I've found are mostly figural, the way his pieces are cut are different (can't explain how but they have more lines in them, are less 'stylised' than the Pfohl or Zach pieces and are just slightly different) and the overlay he engraved on is a more transparent red in all the cases I've found.

However, what is important is that I think some of the work he was doing is also cameo glass and some appear to be earlier than my piece. 
So for example I have the Nagel Auction house catalogue of the JJ Ludwig collection sale, and in the second book, cat no 218 there is a straight sided beaker described as 'Becher mit Chinoiseriedekor'.  The blank is blown with a fairly transparent red overlay on clear glass.  There are sets of three groups of round lenses cut around the foot as a decorative border with the red showing only as an outline around the clear lenses and then a plain red swag joining each group.  The figural decoration is cameo cut with most of the background removed and the clear that is left has then been frosted.  The picture depicted is beautifully carved on the red with a  warrior with shield and spear and a bird on a tree branch.

This is dated c 1835.
I have to admit I'm amazed that in reading all those references, and to also read  the Whitehouse book on English Cameo Glass and see all the  references to past cameo work that he gives,  there is no mention of the work done in Bohemia in the  2nd and 3rd quarter 19th century.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 27, 2013, 01:43:53 PM
Adding to my post above and my longer post above Ivo's and Frank's replies
(Ivo, yes this is one further paragraph I guess  ;D )

I thought I should also add a link (see below) to a book I found whilst searching.  It was written in 1870 by Alexandre Sauzay.  There are two important points in it that I thought I should pick out:

1) On pages 173 and 174 it describes the method of overlay glass within a reference frame of having first mentioned the Portland Vase.  It also discusses the difference between engravings on glass and overlay cutting - therefore,  it is in someway referring to 'cameo glass' when it describes overlay glass and the cutting thereof.

2) Within those same pages it discusses using acid, however reading it carefully and having read the preceding chapters, that reference used when discussing  acid on glass, is actually regarding using acid to etch or engrave glass, it it not a reference to acid etched cameo glass.

I am confident my vase and the ones I've linked to above use hand carved cameo technique to create the designs on the glass.

link to book here
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=t0sNAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=bohemian+glass&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5JEmUa_aPMaS0QXfs4CQBg&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCTgU#v=onepage&q=bohemian%20glass&f=false

With regards my comments on the three layer glass and the 'popularity' which the V&A refer to,
in the JJ Ludwig collection, which was a high end collection and I believe collected over a long period of time, there were 44 bechers of the period, of which only four were three layer glass , and only two were cameo (the one the same as mine and the Carl Gunther piece which was only one overlay).  Obviously this could be just because they didn't like overlay glass, but given the breadth of the collection overall and the number of bechers in their collection, I suspect not.

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 27, 2013, 08:31:25 PM
Just adding this which I've finally found.
In CH  British Glass  1800-1914 this goblet (the one I've linked to)  is pictured in black and white but only described as
'Plate 111 - page 146 "Large goblet cased blue over clear and engraved by the Bohemian engraver F.Zach, c1860. 12 3/4". "

He comments on page 145 under International Exhibitions regarding Bohemian Glass displays of the 1862 Exhibition on the site of the now Natural History Museum  and says the following:
'...A fascinating glass from the English engravers' point of view must have been  the cased goblet (my words - this is not the same goblet as I linked to) showing Cupid amongst scrollwork engraved by F. Zach.  Zach remains as mysterious figure but the quality of his work is evident from the known signed pieces (plate 111)'

The piece in plate 111 is this one
http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackcountrymuseums/4388847173/
Described by the Black Country Museums site as
'1850-1860 Blue cast loving cup engraved in cameo style with a partially clad male figure embracing a mermaid.
Engraved by Franz Zach.' (my underlining)

No mention in CH British Glass of the cameo on the goblet.  Admittedly the intricacy and detail of the cameo is not of the detail of the Northwood cameos but this was 16years before the Northwood cameo vases were displayed at  the International Exhibition of 1878 which are commented on in the book on page 147.
On page 115 there is documentation of the Locke Portland vase for Richardson and the cameos made by Locke and Alphonse Lechevrel which were also exhibited at the 1878 Exhibition.

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Frank on February 28, 2013, 01:04:17 AM
e.g. the ones I've found are mostly figural, the way his pieces are cut are different (can't explain how but they have more lines in them, are less 'stylised' than the Pfohl or Zach

Be aware, and I think you are, that ¨his work was usually" "His work is known as" simple refers to one or more pieces that are positively documented to assume that all of an artists work are based on this example is possibly erroneous. But not always! An accomplished engraver may have only worked on 10 designs in his life. Another may have developed and explored - but this is a freedom of modern times. There are simply hundreds of engravers most of whom would have stuck to what they are taught and could have become extremely accomplished at their interpretation of their lessons - but most will remain unknown and the odds are always in favour of an unknown as they were the majority. Which does not mean you will not identify their teacher.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 28, 2013, 08:39:28 AM
 :) I am aware and you are quite right.
And it's a good reminder also that I should put caveats and be careful of the way I phrase things.

One of the difficulties is that there are so few of these pieces around to compare and contrast, whether the same as mine or just similar.
The other is the scarcity of information on the technique with regard to Bohemian use in the 19th century.

I am open to correction on everything I've written above so any contributions very gratefully received :)

m


Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 28, 2013, 10:27:40 AM
This piece is a superb example of cameo glass and whilst a different subject, looks remarkably similar to the chinoiserie becher id'd as by Carl Guenther in the Nagel catalogue with a date given of 1835, that I referred to in a post a few up.
It is mounted with silver.
http://www.waddingtons.ca/auctions/2012/12-12-deco/?w_i_id=82675&w_item_depth=182
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 02, 2013, 12:07:33 AM

I’ve found a description of pieces with a similar technique to mine as being cameo glass (but only single overlay and figural).  Apart from a reference in a Miller's guide that appeared under the heading Cameo Glass, this is the first time I've found a reference to these items as being cameo cut and with some detail in the description.

Please bear in mind, that in the beerstein.net  link that I give below, the author’s pictures are not numerically labelled plates, although he actually refers to them as fig1,fig 2 etc.
 I also think the author has made an error in the caption of the middle glass in fig 2 (picture of three glasses together in one plate.)  btw,this fig 2 plate appears next to the plate with a piece of blue on clear glass with a picture of a man on it he references it as fig 1 in his description. Based on his description I think the caption for fig 2 should read 'intaglio cut, cameo cut, shaded wheel cut'. as a description of the three pieces, not ‘intaglio cut, intaglio cut, shaded wheel cut’.

Anyway, if you scroll down to the descriptions paragraphs, under the heading 'Overlays' you will see a sub heading 'Cameo cut' where these two pieces are described (fig 1 and middle piece in fig 2)
http://www.beerstein.net/articles/bsj-4c.htm

The author says:
'Cameo Cut

The cameo cut utilizes the color of the overlay even more than the cut to clear method does. The cameo cut involves cutting away the background to the clear layer underneath and leaving the scene to show in the overlay color. The subject is cut to different depths in the outer layer only, creating various shades of the outer layer’s color. (Figures 1 and 2, center) These various shades contrasted with the clear layer underneath to create a photo-like engraved image. '
He adds ‘Sometimes, copper wheel cutting is supplemented by polishing the cut (Figure 3). When the copper disc cuts into the surface, it leaves a frosted finish. On occasion, the artist would polish part or all of the cut design to create a shiny contrast.


I cannot comment on his authority on glass and glass techniques, but he also says
'Few cutters had the ability and experience to execute this method of decoration successfully, so cameo cut pieces are rare and expensive.'

It seems to me, from what I have read in various references, that creating a piece of overlaid or cup cased glass is not particularly easy and, given the different colours of glass, is subject to the stresses of contraction rates and the annealing process.  I also found this snippet about the years taken by Boston and Sandwich to perfect their overlay glass technique:
‘Boston  and Sandwich began experimenting with overlay techniques in the 1840’s but was not til the late 1850’s they had perfected their techniques.’ -Source ‘Notable Acquisitions at the Art Institute of Chicago’

 I think the difficulty involved in producing the blanks is the case regardless of what era the piece has been created. 
However, bearing in mind the pieces being discussed on this thread were made between 1835 and 1860 ish, where cased or overlaid glass only started being produced a few years earlier, it seems to me the blanks would be fairly ‘precious’ … even before the decoration is even begun on the piece.  i.e. perhaps they would only be given to select skilled makers to decorate because there has to be an added risk to the glass once the carving starts?

I have one more name to add to the list and that is of Ernst Simon who carved a magnificent piece of blue on clear for Josephinenhutte.  It is a piece in the Corning here
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/covered-goblet-putti-hunting-wild-boar#.UTE_3jCeN_U
It is a huge piece again, but the description the Corning gives explains the technique and the difficulty of carving very well:

‘Description
Colorless and cobalt blue glass; blown, tooled, applied, cased, engraved. Large goblet with a bucket shaped bowl cut blue-to-colorless with the scene of the putti hunting boar with spears in hand and surrounded by leaves and branches. the stem consists of several merese, an engraved knop, and an engraved inverted baluster atop a circular engraved foot. The lid is also blue cut-to-colorless with the leaf motif continued and a finial of merese, knop and inverted baluster shape with a raspberry prunt on top.
Label Text
“Historical revival” does not necessarily content itself with the slavish copy of bygone styles. Instead, surprisingly new results can be achieved by the combination of styles from entirely different sources. This goblet is a meticulous copy of the most accomplished type of Nuremberg vessels of the 17th century. However, the decoration of the bowl and cover refer to ancient Roman cameo glass. The latter posed an enormous challenge for Biedermeier glass factories in Bohemia and Silesia: the engraving required the complete mastery of carving into the outer layer of colored glass, turning it lighter as more glass was removed. Also, the glassmakers had to solve the problem of tensions in the glass caused by incompatible expansion coefficients of different glass colors. The Josephinenhütte seems to have started its attempts in the mid-1840s, and employed in Ernst Simon (1817–1894) an exceptionally gifted glass engraver. He transformed the ornamental subject into a vivacious scene, and emphasized the contrast between the playful putti—sweet chubby children that have ancient ancestors and became popular in 16th-century arts—and their stern determination to hunt down a wild boar.’



Notwithstanding that my piece and similar are not of the size and complexity of the Exhibition pieces, they must still have been expensive when they were produced.
Therefore I presume that if they had been prolifically made there might be more available around and about.  And there aren’t.  The Corning seems to only have three, the V&A one.  The others I’ve seen are all either in museums or private collections or being sold as high end glass for matching prices. 
Therefore, at the time these Bohemian pieces were made, and bearing in mind their fragility, I’m just not sure there were that many people capable of working on them.
 I think the fact that I’ve found only 20 pieces in total bears this out (only five possibly 6 of those done with double overlay like mine).

So just coming back to Frank's comment above, I am aware of the ‘glassworkers who are skilled at their work yet never become known or famous' and the danger of attributing everything to the teacher, but based on my current research, I feel it is also possible this group of 1st to 3rd quarter 19th century Bohemian cameo glass is relatively scarce - and there may only have been a select group responsible for producing it.   

As I’ve said all along, I’m open to correction  :)

Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 02, 2013, 10:15:55 AM
My apologies for a couple of errors -

I have a  couple of corrections to my original long post:

These two pieces I linked to in the Corning are not id'd as Karl Pfohl but  attributed as 'Karl Pfohl probably'

http://www.cmog.org/artwork/covered-goblet-5#.US0uuTCeN_V


http://www.cmog.org/artwork/goblet-896?sm_actor_name=Pfohl%252C%2520Karl&sort=bs_has_image%20desc%2Cscore%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&object=1#.US0rQTCeN_V

A gremlin in my typing, this piece sold by Sotheby's had no attribution and was not id'd as by Karl Pfohl in their sale listing:

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/property-from-the-collection-of-carl-desantis/lot.205.lotnum.html

and one correction to my long post above:

I commented that I'd found a reference to these being described under a Cameo heading in a Miller's book.  This was incorrect, the piece in question I'd found was in fact not described in Miller's as being cameo but came under a heading of 'Flashed and Cased Glass'
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X1cXb-wzy74C&pg=PA120&dq=overlay+glass+19th+century&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xJYsUemDBuLW0QXd_oD4Bg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=overlay%20glass%2019th%20century&f=false
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 11, 2013, 08:52:20 PM
I'm assuming the Corning have their identification correct but I've now seen this piece identified at the Corning as by Ernst Simon and at Fischer auctions as by Franz Zach  :-\
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/covered-goblet-putti-hunting-wild-boar#.UT5CgByeNu4

http://www.auctions-fischer.de/selling/artists/zach-franz-paul.html?L=1%20%3Fiframe%3Dtrue&objekt=41&cHash=26a3c8a52c

The Fischer auction say it has an illegible name signed in transparent enamel on the foot.
Fischer is given as a source for the Corning description - I'm confused.
m

Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Frank on March 12, 2013, 03:14:59 AM
Well, the whole concept of 'Cameo cut' is a piece of dung! Cameo is simply layered glass that has has some removed to create a design. You can do that with acid, with a wheel (intaglio relates to wheel size) or you can do it by scraping glass away with hand tools.

Yes, overlaying colours requires skill, that is what glassmakers possess... seems you his on some superficial accounts there ;)
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 12, 2013, 09:57:52 AM
I presume you are referring back to the description on the Beerstein site?  :) Yes I think the focus/knowledge of that site is 'Steins' per se, rather than the materials used in making them.
I agree with you on the terminology and how it should be used, but the sentiment of what he says remains I think? 
Also, it's a site I use a lot when looking at antique German and Bohemian glass, because steins, bechers, pokals are the type of glass that was quite often being made 18th/19th century.  So going to a specific collector site is a good  way to find pieces with  different glass techniques that may not be found when looking at an 'art glass' collection.

'Yes, overlaying colours requires skill, that is what glassmakers possess...'
however not many make cameo glass and certainly not mid 19th century as far as I can find.  And according to comments from various sources, including  from the Corning, the V&A and the report on the Boston and Sandwich overlay glass, there appears to be some degree of difficulty, (presumably more difficulty ensued when they first started making overlay glass again in the 19th century) in ensuring the success of  overlay  glass because of the different colours used - and   likewise using the cupped glass method?

I'm waiting for my copy of Das Bohmische Glas Band III to arrive.  I'll post if there is anything similar in it.
This is costing me a fortune in books  ;D
m


Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: cubby01 on March 12, 2013, 03:04:35 PM
I've found three engraved cameo pieces dating to 1845/50 ish and with the overlay decoration, but none have three layers, only two, being the blue cut to clear with the cameo engraving.  One was on red.  The scrolls decoration on the pieces seem very similar to this.  But two were signed and this is not.

Neat vase!   Here's a link to a similar double overlay vase.  There are some similarities in design theam and the period is consistent.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10028641

(My apologies if the link was previously posted and I missed it.  There's a lot to read in this thread :))
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 12, 2013, 11:13:29 PM
Hi, thanks for taking the time to read the thread and look for pieces that have the vine pattern.
The one you link to is a double overlay but the decoration has been engraved into the top layer to leave the underneath white layer showing as the pattern.  It's a different result to the raised relief decoration of cameo, but it's a stunning effect isn't it? 
Thanks again :)

I just thought I'd link another style of Bohemian cameo glass - this dated to c1860 produced at Neuwelt.  It's a cameo glass stoppered flakon, white overlay over a red transparent glass, with the white overlay being cut into flowers and leaves pattern and then gilded and enamelled.  Id'd as produced at Neuwelt. Reference source given is Lit.: G. Höltl (Hrsg.): Das Böhmische Glas 1700-1950, Band III, Passau 1995, Kat. III.15.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166331

In the same sale another grape and vine double overlay cameo glass becher in blue on white on clear (similar to the one I reference on page 2 which was originally in the Ludwig collection and sold in 2012 through Dr Fischer auctions).  This one is 1cm smaller than the previous one:
Euro 700- Euro 1180 starting price Euro 700 (Sale date mar 17 2007 Dr Fischer Auction)
Description is 'Böhmen, um 1860 Farbloses Glas weiß und blau doppelt überfangen. Geschälter Stand. Mittig eingezogene Wandung mit umlaufendem Weinranken-Fries in Farbschichtgravur auf mattiertem Fond. Gebrauchsspuren. Abgesetzter Lippenrand. Im Boden gravierte Inschrift "Andenken". '
This one  is described as having 'Andeken (souvenir)engraved on the base.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166364
no reference so I'm not holding out much hope that my copy of Band III is going to produce any references for my piece.
Am thinking mine may have been described as a 'Flakon'?

m

Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 13, 2013, 11:44:27 PM
I've just found some pictures from the Passau Glass Museum that appear to be the same as the decanter I linked to above                                            ( http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166331 )  , id'd as being produced at Neuwelt.  The pieces in the museum are two tall stoppered decanters and a tall goblet and are in a cabinet with a label saying Josephinenhutte.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 17, 2013, 01:39:03 PM
I have found a different reference to this technique being cameo work -
In a Sotheby's listing from 2006 Lot 534 in The Great Exhibitions Sale, seen on this link for two 'armorial goblets' (see link - my underlining) it says:

'NOTE
A notable decorator of blue and ruby encased and overlay glass, much of Franz Paul Zach (1820-1881) work was undertaken in Munich for the Frankfurt and Würzburg-based firm of Steigerwald, where he lived from 1844 until his death in 1881.

Examples of his work in the new method of acid-cameo were shown at the World's Fairs between 1851 and 1873 (see P.von Lichtenberg, Glasgravuren des Biedermeier, pp.298-305).'


http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/f-franz-paul-zach-a-pair-of-large-bohemian-acid-1-c-26w746w738




I have another question :
Further to my comment here regarding differences in identification
'I'm assuming the Corning have their identification correct but I've now seen this piece identified at the Corning as by Ernst Simon and at Fischer auctions as by Franz Zach 
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/covered-goblet-putti-hunting-wild-boar#.UT5CgByeNu4

http://www.auctions-fischer.de/selling/artists/zach-franz-paul.html?L=1%20%3Fiframe%3Dtrue&objekt=41&cHash=26a3c8a52c

The Fischer auction say it has an illegible name signed in transparent enamel on the foot.
Fischer is given as a source for the Corning description - I'm confused.
m
'

does anyone have the Josephinenhutte book with the blue and white lidded pokal on the front with an eagle stem?  That piece was sold by Sotheby's in  2003 as a Russian piece with the following explanation:

'
'A large and rare Russian engraved blue-cased goblet and cover circa 1860
MEASUREMENTS
62cm., 24 3/8in.
DESCRIPTION
the funnel bowl finely engraved with the winged figures of Cupid and Psyche seated on a bed, a bow, quiver and lyre to one side, above a formal band of trefoils, against a matt ground, the stem formed as a carved imperial eagle, the domed foot and cover engraved with a meandering foliate branch, below a pointed leaf-capped finial
For a goblet of the same size and of similar inspiration, engraved by the same hand and bearing this distinctive eagle stem, see that sold Sotheby's London, 19th November 1996, lot 53 (£68,000). This example and the present lot are the only goblets of this extraordinary construction to come to light so far.

The design for a large (59cm. high) enamelled armorial glass with white overlay - 'ein Adlerpokal' - which includes a stem with an almost identical carved or moulded eagle, is illustrated by G.Pazaurek, Gläser der Empire- und Biedermeierzeit, p.356, pl.348 (Archiv Waldburg-Zeil). The drawing and enamel decoration on that glass is attributed to a glass enameller called Dohnt (or Dohnat) but the author is unable to provide any further details about the decorator and does not date the drawing.

Of outstanding quality, the monumental appearance might suggest that the present lot was conceived for one of the major international exhibitions of the period. There was some suggestion that the example sold by Sotheby's in 1996 had been chosen as a Czarist gift. There are strong decorative and stylistic links between the work of Franz Zach and that example- especially in the engraved vermicelli matt ground. Zach is regarded as the leading exponent of the art of engraving blue overlay. For signed examples of his work in blue overlay see the smaller goblets sold Sotheby's London, 19th December 2002, lots 40 and 50, and lot 20 for an attributed tazza.'


Thanks - I might ask this question on a separate thread to draw attention to it.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 17, 2013, 05:00:41 PM
Hi m ,

Very interesting topic, thanks very much !

In Peter Dreiser's and Jonathan Matcham's book 'Techniques of Glass Engraving' 2nd edition , he mentions Intaglio engraving and he says the word Intaglio means (to an engraver)... ' a design which has been modelled negatively into glass, so as to give the illusion of standing out in positive relief '   He also states that 'some confusion may arise from this term, for there is a bold type of decorative engraving produced by small stone wheels (part way toward glass cutting) that was developed at Stourbridge during the late nineteenth century which is also well known as intaglio. It is quite seperate in form and technique .'

Good luck ! Cheers, Mike.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 17, 2013, 05:19:10 PM
Thanks Mike :)
 I cannot find my first edition of that book, most annoying, I seem to have lost it.  I understand what is said, but the cameo on these pieces is cut in relief with the blue and white layers being raised against the clear background.  Also the veins on the leaves and the stems are also in relief on the blue. not engraved to look as though it is relief.  I shall go and do a quick search to look at antique glass with intaglio engraving and have another look at the differences.

on another note -

This vase with a goat and vines and grapes was sold at Sotheby's in 2007 attributed to Franz Zach.
I can see  similarities with my decanter in this piece.  If this piece is indeed Franz Zach (there are similarities with this piece and another signed Franz Zach vase which I guess is what they base their attribution on) then, despite what the V&A have said, I think he has to be in the running as a possible for my decanter.
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2007/an-important-private-collection-from-hanover-am1020/lot.962.html

My decanter is incredibly well made and decorated.  There is no evidence of any shoddy work at all, it is quite impeccably made and engraved/cut and finished.

I have now searched well in excess I estimate of 3000 images of bechers, flakons, decanters, vases, pokals and steins etc, through various auction houses, museum collections and books going back a number of years.    There are only three makers names that come up and they are Karl Pfohl, Franz Zach and Ernst Simon (n.b. I've not found the reference for Ernst Simon's piece in the Corning as it was previously attributed to possibly Franz Zach).  They may or may not be the only makers.
but
Whilst it may be the case that the unknowns are always in the majority, and that does need to be borne in mind, these two layers red or blue over clear matt cameo glass remain incredibly rare pieces, museum pieces as far as I can see.

The three layer matt cameo pieces are even rarer so far. Those with the grapes and vine  I have found so far are  two bechers, my flakon(decanter) and one( possibly two - picture too indistinct to see properly) steins. 

With regard the bechers, of the leaves that it is possible to see on the photos they do not have the curled up edges that the leaves on my decanter do, and one of the photos is not a good one so it's difficult to be sure, but the smaller one when placed side by side with my decanter in a photo is very similar and should certainly be a contender for being made by the same hand.

There are  a few others in three layer, one in the Corning, and the few sold at Sotheby's. 
And those are the only pieces I have found.  That is it.  Of course there may well be others out there in private collections, but on the evidence so far, they are like hen's teeth.
It is possible to see many similarities between the different 'types' or 'groups' of this matt cameo, but there are so few differences that on current investigations I do not believe there were lots of people making these pieces. 
I'm still waiting for two books to arrive that may have some more information in them.  I'll post if they do.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 18, 2013, 06:50:27 PM
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51915.msg294386.html#msg294386
information on the Josephinenhutte question posed earlier in the thread is now on the link above.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 19, 2013, 07:50:47 AM
Hi m,

You could always email pics to the Passau Glass Museum with a suggestion that your study piece could possibly have been made at Josephine. The base (and lid) of the eagle goblet has thick branches for the 'vine?' that look quite similar in style to the thick branches on your example but it's difficult to see the detail.

Just a thought... ;)

Ta, Mike.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 19, 2013, 08:32:22 AM
thanks Mike
I've emailed the Passau Museum in the past and never had any replies  :) 
The only museum who consistently reply and are fantastic are the V&A.
They suggested emailing museums in Germany but I've not because generally I don't get a response.

Once my book arrives I will have purchased a fair amount of the Passau books - perhaps if there is nothing in there that helps I may email them and ask as a longshot. 
But actually I'm finding it very interesting looking at the pieces I've found and linking them to each other through similarities in the engraving technique.  There are very few marked and only those by Franz Zach that I've found.  The rest are attributed.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 19, 2013, 10:43:55 AM
It's good to know you are still able to order the book through the museum which  looks wonderful  ......I've just had a virtual walk about and now feel like sitting down !

Here's the Josephinenhutte room........

http://www.glasmuseum.de/fileadmin/Media_Glasmuseum/panoramen/Josephinenhuette/Panorama_Glasmuseum_%285%29_web.swf

There is one decanter, pinky-red over clear, that looks quite similar in shape to yours (can't see the base though) on one of the top shelves (but then I guess it's quite a common shape).

I've learnt so much just by following this thread and thanks again.... it's an education just to see how you are researching your lovely piece  :)

Cheers Mike.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 19, 2013, 10:57:51 AM
thank you for the direct link :)
the Eagle goblet and the decanter (and possibly the other lidded piece) shown in the flyer are in this room here
http://www.glasmuseum.de/fileadmin/Media_Glasmuseum/panoramen/Gravuren/Panorama_Glasmuseum_%286%29_web.swf
these seem to be the only pieces in this reliefschnitte technique that I can see.
enjoy
My Walter Spiegl book has arrived ....  I wish I spoke and read German to a reasonable level :o  ... it's going to be some time before I find the relevent bits in the text.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 19, 2013, 12:39:43 PM
One of the books has arrived:
Walter Spiegl 'Glas des Historismus' 1980 Klinkhardt & Braunschweig

It has a number of these pieces in, unfortunately mostly in black and white pictures - they lose their appeal and impact massively without the colour to show the depth of the engraving and cutting.  It also makes it very hard for me to compare techniques of engraving between each of them.

He puts them in a chapter called 'Uberfangreliefschnitt' ( I understand that translation as Overlay Relief Cut).  This falls before his shorter chapter on 'Cameo' where 3 pieces of English cameo glass are featured from Thomas Webb.

He features 21 pieces in total as photographs, in a variety of pieces ranging from portrait bechers to pokals, all figural or animal. Many of which I have found online in colour - I've found others that are not featured in his book.

Page 184 top of page it says (if my translation is correct):
This overlay relief cut technique was only executed on hollow glasses between 1845 and 1865.
He mentions a goblet with a cover depicting a musician and a gentleman dates to 1849 in the Munchener StadtMuseum, as well as a red overlay relief cut Bierkrug with a knight on flanked by three shields in the same museum, and says the goblet with musician and gentleman is the first dated example.
I think there is possibly an error in the Nagel catalogue on the Carl Gunther Chinoiseriedekor becher which they dated to 1835 – need to come back to that.

He goes on to say (again I think, this is my translation using google):
‘In 1849, the Harrachsche Hutte sent in this technique decorated Glaser (I think it says two pieces but not sure) at the Vienna National Cabinet Factory Products  (I think this must have been an exhibition) as probably the first successful results in the application of innovative engraving technology’
Further informationt says  a becher with two dogs(pictured in the book) in Prager Kunstgewerbemuseum is dated 1853 (It has a date inscribed on it) and mentions the Franz Zach piece I’ve already shown, in the V&A dated 1855.
There are Karl Pfohl pieces dated 1860.



With regards the three layer overlay (blue on white on clear) there is only one example in the book. None like my decanter/flakon.  The one example is a lidded goblet that is so remarkably similar to the one with the maiden on in the Corning, that I think it could be it's 'pair'.  There are differences but the style and shape etc are the quite remarkably similar.  It apparently was in the R. von Strasser collection at that time.

There are two notable other pieces.  One is a cobalt blue overlay of two horses but on a 'milchglas' background - it's beautiful even in black and white (Franz Ullman 1890).  The other is a superb overlay cameo piece of blue overlay on clear, I think it says from Hans Makart, engraving relief overlay by Wilhelm Fritsche Steinschonau, signed '19 F 27' Glasmuseum Kamenicky Senov.

He discusses on page 205 a red overlay relief cut becher on Milchglas in naive style and says it is singed Hetzel 1890.  I think he says of it, that the naive style indicates the engraver was not familiar with this technique.  Another reason to think that whilst the list of Pfohl, Zach, and Simon may not be exhaustive or complete, there may not have been many engravers executing these pieces.

Spiegl has imparted a lot of information in this chapter, that I do not understand.  I'm going to try using google translate for various sections to see what else I might learn.  Please note the excerpts I have translated are part of a very long chapter and for exact reference please see the book sourced at the top of this post, as I may be not completely correct in my understanding.

So as far as I can see, these are definitely much earlier pieces than the English cameo glass 'movement'. And in my very humble opinion they are cameo glass and should be included in glass books on general glass over the years,  as examples of cameo glass from Bohemia executed from the 2nd quarter of the 19th century.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 19, 2013, 01:29:06 PM
This is a very similar style of engraving to the leaves, grapes and branches .....sorry if you have seen it before or mentioned it already above.....

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2089227

Cheers, Mike.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 19, 2013, 01:32:20 PM
ooh thank you!!!! no I had not found it - it's like the pink stein and I think the engraver is the same as my flakon.  Excellent, thanks so much :)
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 19, 2013, 01:37:56 PM
actually I'm going to be very bold here and say I think mine and that pink one have definitely been engraved by the same hand! :o
I'll do some more searching now on the shape of that goblet  - thanks so much for finding it.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 19, 2013, 02:10:02 PM
Oh great !! So pleased I can be of help for once  ;D

You can  really see the detail in the leaves just by clicking on the photo ...they even have the same highlights as on your leaves !

Cheers, Mike. :D
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 19, 2013, 02:14:32 PM
they do!  I'm so happy :) thank you - at last I have something else to go on.
I have set a side by side photo of it with the two bechers and it's still possible becher 2, the smaller one, is the same hand, although the photo isn't that good.  Becher 1 may or may not be (the Nagel, then sold Fischer 14cm one) but the photograph is not good enough to tell.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 21, 2013, 01:40:14 PM
Both my new books are now here. 
I'm having a great difficulty 'sorting' out who did what for a number of reasons:

a) online attributions are not always what I would attribute them as having looked at the books and the references  - it seems as though sometimes a name (Franz Zach mostly) has just been plucked out the air and used as a reference rather than really looking at the comparisons of the piece to the ones id'd in the books.

b) it would help greatly to have all of them lined up in front of me (online and those in the books) to compare - it's one of those instances where seeing the item in the flesh would be  helpful because of the subtle differences in the engraving techniques.

c) the printing in the books, 'smoothes' out the nuances of the engraving making it difficult to see detail in some instances and rather irritatingly, the books only give one view, the front, of the piece and no base shot either (my particularly bug bear with buying books - authors please note, it's really helpful to include base shots!)

d) I'm trying to compare double overlay cameo v single overlay cameo and the effect is definitely not quite the same so you have to look harder at the engraving technique and the shapes of the cameo vines for example to spot similarities.

An example of the difficulty being that I think it's possible the engraver of my piece was the same as this one here
http://www.auktion-bergmann.de/ufItemInfo.aspx?a_id=78&i_id=209674&s_id=6104
However... that linked piece is attributed to Franz Zach and I think it might be Karl Pfohl  ::)  to me it as similarities with plate 111.76 stangenpokal mit Berber und Lowin and the blank and foot of the piece with plate 111.80 of Das Bohmische Glas band III

There are no pictures at all in any of the books (of which I now have a goodly clutch), of triple layer cameo such as my vine and grapes or the stein, becher and tazza linked to on this thread.

There are two Karl Pfohl pieces done on triple layer blue over white over clear in Das Bohmische Glas Band III, they are 'medallion portraits' with no foliage unfortunately.  There are no Franz Zach pieces.9

There is one more potential name to add to this list - in Das Bohmische Glas band II page 69, there is a tall goblet attributed to Anton Heinrich Pfeiffer. 111.77
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 21, 2013, 05:01:18 PM
Have you managed to date the pink stein (possibly the blue one as well) & pink compot yet ? I think they have to have been made at the same location / time as your piece and engraved by the same engraver (or team of engravers) .   

Ta, Mike.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 21, 2013, 05:30:54 PM
I haven't managed to date them by reference but in my own head, at the moment,  I think they are probably 1855/60 - they are triple layer glass (dates to around that time frame I think) and beautifully done and the cameo technique used is one used in that period.
 
I think the technique from what I read was used later on around the turn of the century, but the example given in Spiegl's book notes what I said before - which is something I think along the lines of, 'the engraver was not familiar with the technique' - i.e. as far as I can tell it's not a detailed executed  piece and doesn't fit in with all these in terms of style and quality of execution.

I think the pink compote and my flakon, the pink  stein and one of the bechers were definitely engraved by the same hand rather than a team - unsure about the other becher and stein as the leaves are not quite 'there' in terms of a match.
I've found a pink double overlay piece by Josephinenhutte, yet to find a 'matching' pink by Harrach, but I'm still suspecting these came from Harrach.

I think it's possible this one came from the same factory and was possibly engraved by the same hand. 
http://www.auktion-bergmann.de/ufItemInfo.aspx?a_id=78&i_id=209674&s_id=6104
however, it's attributed to Franz Zach and I think it's possible it may have been done by Karl Pfohl - I'm not definite about their attribution having looked at their reference plates.
The blue is a very good match for mine - and something about the way it has been cut looks familiar.  Strangely, matching the blue has been difficult, partly because of photo representation, partly because there were quite a few lighter blues rather than this glowing deep cobalt blue.

But that's as far as I've got :)  I very much appreciate your input and interest so thank you.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 21, 2013, 07:01:37 PM
I think the compote is the key ....find out how old it is and you have answered most of your questions.  ;)
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 21, 2013, 09:03:57 PM
In the Nagel auction books there is a pink overlay over white over clear becher.  It is specifically identified as Neuwelt (where other Bechers are for example simply denoted 'Bohemian').  The pink looks slightly brighter than the compote however with printing and lighting on pics I suppose it's difficult to tell.  Dated c.1850.  Next to it there is a blue (same as my vase) over white over clear Becher actually inscribed with a date of 1852.  So I think my time frame is 'mid 19th century' or thereabouts.
I've also just realised something.  The pink compote you link to has round cut outs that I think are similar to something called 'Harrach windows' on Brian's Harrach site.  Obviously anyone could have done large roundel cut - outs but it's a possible link.

edited to add...not the same technique as described on the Harrach site for the 'Windows' vases (see link) but the top one is in a pink albeit that it looks a different shade to the compote- Mod: Link removed as content changed to inappropriate site


m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 23, 2013, 03:39:14 PM
This photo is really interesting because it shows close detail of the surface etching.....(zoom in to see)

 http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/property-from-the-collection-of-carl-desantis/lot.206.lotnum.html


Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 23, 2013, 04:12:05 PM
yes I have that one saved as possibly the same maker as mine (and the pink footed bowl) :)
There were a number of pieces sold in that person's collection that are this technique.

thank you for continuing to look :) two pairs of eyes are better than one.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 23, 2013, 04:38:12 PM
If this technique was used again in the 1900's, how do you distinguish between the two dates ? The pink compote (to my entirely untrained eye) looks late Victorian in style to me ...I've checked the general design of pressed glass , late Victorian compote's (or compotiers/comports) and toothed rims were definitely in vogue at that time.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 23, 2013, 04:45:19 PM
yes I know - I have thought the same, but not been able to find a link to a later date so far for the double overlay/shapes/techniques apart from the tooth rim.
I've also not been able to find a link to the tooth cut rim for mid 19th either though - or for Harrach.
btw, just for accuracy, I'm not sure it's a tooth cut rim really.
Also I did have a cut glass Victorian lustre with a similar cut zig zag type of rim and I thought that dated to around 1870 ish, so perhaps not totally v.late Victorian if you see what I mean.

an example is this footed bowl dating to c.1840 from what it says
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/4268309
or this dating to mid 19th
http://www.glaswolf.de/Schale-mit-Ansichten.253+B6YmFja1BJRD0yNTMmcHJvZHVjdElEPTE5MDA5JnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTI1MyZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
http://www.glaswolf.de/Biedermeier-Tazza.287+B6YmFja1BJRD0yODcmcHJvZHVjdElEPTI0MjMmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9Mjg3JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 23, 2013, 06:59:14 PM
It really does seem that this style & design of compote (comport)  spanned more than half a century  :o  so to try and date the pink one is very difficult indeed   ??? I thought it would be a doddle  :-[

Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on March 23, 2013, 07:07:57 PM
 ;D
that's the fun of it
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 29, 2013, 06:52:31 AM
I just thought I would throw this one in the mix as a name of an engraver of the period who is very good at depicting tree bark and leaves ...it's a slightly different style but as it's signed at least it gives another lead which might be of help ( or  not  ::) )......

http://katalog.auktionshaus-wendl.com/de/cmd/d/o/119.68-2923/auk/68/p/1/
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2013, 02:06:11 PM
Hi Mike
I'm sorry I missed your post - that one is by Carl Gunther (I linked a couple of other pieces by him earlier).  That's a beautiful example, thank you for continuing to look for me :)

I have some more possible names - or at least a small headway

Having received the Harrach book, there are only three examples of a similar cameo technique in there that I could find.
 

None of them are three layer glass i.e. blue/pink/red over white over clear.  They are all two layer. 

Of the three that have the top layer also engraved -

One of them (page 140) is a blue over clear cameo glass portrait becher.
It's dated c,1850 caption says  'engraved at Harrachov, Johann Veith (decorative part), portrait the work on an unknown engraver'.  i.e I think, the cutting of the outline round the medallion and the plain blue line of decorative trim at the rim and foot was by Veitch.
The other two are on page 177.  They are floral . 

One is blue on clear water tumbler with bullrushes on in the blue, dated 1854-1855 - the caption refers to a wine jug and and tumbler  documented in 1854 with Alois Pohl noted as the engraver.
Further on in the caption it mentions there were colours of ruby red, pink and green variants.  And says refer to delivery lists for Lobmeyr from 1854-1855 with Anton Sacher noted as the engraver.

The other is a very tall vase  blue on clear with the acanthus scrolls and a figure of a hunter, hound and deer  (the lenses around the bottom of this one are a similar shape to those on mine).  Dated c. 1860.
Most interestingly  it refers to the book AH9 (I presume this is a Harrach pattern book), where it say that in that book the vase is sketched with engraved decoration of entwining vine tendrils with leaves.  Further reference say 'the form was also recorded in the delivery for .... from 21 June 1855 .....caption Rosa hohe Champagnervase 21".... engraved by Franz Mohr and Alois Pohl ... ' . 

Very unfortunately none of these pieces are three layer glass.  It's a big book, 430 pages, so are the other two books I've been through ...  and still no definite link to Harrach.
And interestingly, no Karl Pfohl identified pieces in there in the same technique ( I've not looked at clear engraved glass examples).
I'm beginning to wonder about Harrach not being the source for the three layer pieces.

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2013, 03:19:00 PM
I forgot to add to the above post
I found one in green - it's single layer, a portrait becher, horrid transparent green (imho :) ) but interesting to see the colour variation.
http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/glass-beaker-harrach-19th-ct.-167-c-d105e95d7a
listed as 'probably Harrach'.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on August 11, 2013, 12:31:29 PM
Thanks for the update m , I was wondering how you were getting on with your research . It's frustrating not being able to nail it on the head , you seem to be so near to getting there !

Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on August 19, 2013, 04:40:51 PM
Have a look at this !!

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2007/an-important-private-collection-from-hanover-am1020/lot.962.html

Not sure if you have posted it already here  :-[   
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on August 19, 2013, 07:21:43 PM
P.s. I've also found this ....the general shape to the bottom half looks similar c1900.


http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LargeImage.aspx?image=http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/d40075/d4007574x.jpg
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on August 19, 2013, 11:39:13 PM
Hi Mike :)
thanks so much for continuing to look for me (I'm off glass at the moment as head in other things ... eldest's A levels results, poss uni applications etc... very exciting and very stressful lol)
I'm just going to have a look back through the thread re the red one with the stag and vines on and see what I thought, that's if I'd found it before.  Unfortunately that one is only 'attributed' Franz Zach, and also the vine leaves aren't the same as mine, so no closer on the definites but.... it is the same technique as mine and seems to have been cut  in the same way.
I'll go have a look now.  The ones on the Christie's link I 'think' are either Josephinenhutte or Harrach, can't remember which but think Harrach iirc.  There are many similarities in certain aspects, of mine with other pieces though.  It's hard to make a judgement really unless it's the same cameo technique.  That is the deciding factor to start with I think.
Thanks so much again - I really appreciate your interest :)
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on August 20, 2013, 05:04:42 AM
Sorry m , you did post it before !  :-[

I was looking at Sothebys back cats.. and then thought '..ah I'll search under Bohemian and see what comes up' and didn't check your previous posts , I thought it looked familiar ! The bunch of grapes looks quite close but as you say the leaves are different and more refined.

As an aside , I was reading in the 'Guide to Czech & Slovak Glass' by Diane Foulds that in 1771 there were 312 decorators in  Kamenicky Senov and by 1875 it was 1000 ! The first decorating school in the world was founded there in 1856. The book goes on to say that so much glass was being decorated there that they used to run out of it ! The glass was transported to Kamenicky from other parts of the country (at considerable cost). So there was a need to set up a local glass factory there and the first one was the Adolf Ruckl works founded on 1886 . You probably know all of this but I just thought I would add it here as it's interesting ! :D

Your piece might well have been decorated in Kamenicky Senov but made in another area of Bohemia , if it pre-dates 1886  .

Good luck with your eldest's Uni applications , it's easier this year as the limits for each Uni have been axed !

Cheers, Mike.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on August 20, 2013, 08:37:24 AM
thank Mike :)

yes the vine and the grapes don't look as though they are by the same hand as mine (the leaves don't have a curved outline, they are more pointy, and the grapes looks the same but they just aren't, can't explain why lol:)  )- but the type of cameo is exactly the same.

And yes it could certainly have been made in one place and decorated in another.  But those places and decorators will be quite limited IMHO as I said earlier in the thread. 

It was difficult to successfully make three layer overlay glass - there are not that many pieces around made in that time period of mid 19th (and they would have been expensive at that time).  In addition to which, making cameo such as this on three layer glass, I believe would also have been a fairly difficult task as I've illustrated by previous comments and sources in this thread (see my quote below which includes a comment at the beginning from the V&A).
Even without the cameo design in the middle of the body of the vase, I can’t think there were that many of the three (i.e. transparent or opaline base with two more coloured overlays on) layer pieces produced at this time,  given the difficulty of producing overlay glass and certainly David Whitehouse's book makes no mention of Bohemian cameo glass of mid 19th century at all despite mentioning cameo from various places in earlier eras and English cameo of later in the 19th

I have a few books on this time period and  more on glass of  the time periods of either side and there are very  few pieces of three layer overlay glass, never mind those that also have cameo decoration as well.

'An additional comment they made was :
‘The techniques used are not that of Franz Paul Zach, indeed this blue cut casing combined with different designs of engraved and etched scenes was popular in Bohemia at that time with a number of factories producing examples’.

Firstly regarding the ‘popularity’:
I have searched extensively, but although I can find a number of pieces in a similar ‘ ish’ vein, I can only find  two (possibly three) the same and one that is very similar (in the Corning) to mine. 

I just don’t think they were that prolific and I think that the pieces the V&A refer to are mostly two layer  and cameo engraved pieces i.e one colour over clear (see links I’ve given below to pieces similar to mine but only two layers).

 
-'

 
see also my previous comment here:

'c)   There is a book online written by David Whitehouse called English Cameo Glass in the Corning Museum of Glass and in it on page 7 under Preface he writes:
‘The first cameo glass vessels were made by the Romans between about 25 B.C. and A.D. 50. A handful of vessels were produced by Roman glassworkers in the fourth century A.D., rather
more were made by Islamic craftsmen between the ninth and 11th centuries, and Chinese glass cutters in and after the 18th century made more cameo glasses than all their predecessors combined. Nevertheless, cameo glass was comparatively rare until the late 19th century, when glassmakers in the Stourbridge area of central England produced tens of thousands of objects for consumption at home and abroad.’
'

So, I still think it would be possible to find the house that made the blank and also the decorator. But it will require me to match up all the evidence in my Walter Spiegl book (black and white pics and German descriptions which is quite time consuming for me to translate), with the incorrectly attributed colour pieces available online and then check the way they have been cut for evidence against those that are marked or are identified firmly as, for example, Karl Pfohl/Franz Zach and the other decorators mentioned in the Harrach book.

phew....  at some point I'll get round to it lol :)

Uni...easy?  lol, I would say not, but I suppose it does depend on what you want to do and where you want to go. For the selective 2% of academic bright sparks it may be easier, for the other 98%, definitely not so in my opinion.
 My son will end up owing on a loan of £56,000 as he needs to do a 4yr Masters (plus a 5th year in industry) for what he wants to do -  for taking on that kind of debt, as well as our money to top it up,  you want a good uni/course/degree! (and you need the grades to match (he needs A*AA) - he's at a non-selective state school) I definitely would not rather be in his shoes :)
I wasn't aware Uni limits had been 'axed'?  this year they were reduced to ABB.  Has that been reduced further for next year?  I suspect some Uni's will be struggling very much next year - the government has increased loans to £9K/yr from £3K, as well as tampering with the AS and A level grade boundary requirements, as well as some  Uni's increasing their grade requirements, all in one fell swoop.  That is going to have consequences, for example there was a report at the weekend that 40% of Language departments at Unis were going to be cut!  Last year I read that even some Russell Group unis struggled to fill their places leaving them hundreds of thousands of pounds down for the next three years.  It's going to get stinky.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on August 20, 2013, 09:25:43 PM
Cheers m,

Have you thought of sending pics. plus the link to the pink example (by the same hand ) to the Kamenicky Senov Glass Museum ? The museum is even housed in the former decorating workshops of J & L Lobmeyr Co. (suppiers to the court of Austrian Emperor Franz Josef I).  They could help in the ID and age I'm sure.  Even if they didn't know, they would forward it on to someone who might ! It would be great to find out what they say, wouldn't it ?

As for the uni limits , so I heard on the radio, there is now (this year) no limit to the number of students that each uni can take. They can still set their own high standards of entrance qualifications but they are no longer restricted to a certain intake number. This is what I have gathered. So it gives a better chance for students  to be able to go to their first choice uni , given they have the grades. It sure is expensive though and a four year course is even worse !  :( 

Mike  :)
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on August 20, 2013, 09:37:52 PM
no I hadn't thought of that - great idea Mike and I will give it a try when I get some space.  Thank you :)

I'll investigate the Uni grade issue a bit more - thanks for pointing that out. 
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on September 16, 2013, 10:43:45 PM
well, this is an odd thing
two years earlier than the one Mike found which sold in 2006, this one was sold in 2004 apparently as  'Webb'
It is marked - is this a fake mark? I think so from checking marks.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/495109
That wasn't mentioned on the one sold in 2006 - not to say it's not the same piece, but they could be different pieces.  It's difficult to be sure because the pics are from a different angle.  If they are, then that's two footed bowls in the decor.
The listing Mike found is here - it is the same height
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2089227
Looking at the first one sold in 2004 you can see through it to the other side and the pattern seems to match that showing on the one sold in 2006, so I think they might be one and the same piece.  Perhaps the owner found out the mark was fake and that it was Bohemian and so it was resold as such (mark not mentioned in listing in 2006).
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 12, 2013, 09:08:31 PM
I was very excited to find this reference this evening.

It will disappear in time as it is a chromolyth being sold on Ebay but it is listed as:#

Name of Print - Ornamental Glass
Date - 1863
Source - Masterpieces of Industrial Art and Sculpture
By - J B Waring, engraved by John Day

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1863-Antique-COLOR-Print-ORNAMENTAL-PAINTED-GLASS-Belgian-Exposition-/330873099532?pt=Art_Prints&hash=item4d0992d50c

I believe I can just make out at the bottom of the print, that it says
Glass by W Hoffman Prague

The red cameo piece in the chromolyth is similar in subject depiction to two Karl Pfohl pieces in Glas des Historismus one on page 194 and the other page 193.
The Chromolyth dates to 1863 :)

It is reprinted in the Harrach book page 198 (From Neuwelt to the Whole World) and captioned Glass by the Wilhelm HOffman Company at the Great London Exposition 1862 but is quite small and dark.
m
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 12, 2013, 11:52:35 PM
http://www.prazskagalerie.cz/en/news/from-editorial/crisis-and-boom-in-glass-and-jewellery-industry-1
second picture down on this link is one of the similar pieces I was talking about in my post above.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: Baked_Beans on October 13, 2013, 08:19:05 AM
That earlier auction listing you found (well spotted !) of the one I found certainly looks like the same piece . As you say the pattern matches on the other side . Unless some sort of pattern template was used , I think you can say it must be one of the same item. They may have decided to photograph it from the other side (second time around) so that it looks like a different piece.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 13, 2013, 08:32:10 AM
yes I think it's the same piece.

I'm going to the V&A on Tuesday to photograph glass :)
I shall be photographing some pieces very closely this time. 
Can't wait.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 21, 2013, 06:37:01 PM
Further to my comments here in this thread (see link)

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51272.msg292956.html#msg292956

I went up to the V&A last week to look at the Franz Zach bowl - ooh it's really gorgeous.
I also took some pictures.  It's the same technique as my vase, i.e. cameo, however it's  only one blue layer over clear glass and the blue has been etched/carved away thinner in some areas thicker in others, as I said before, and that way it shows more or less light through giving the design on the bowl a very three dimensional feel - it's beautiful.  Mine uses the white overlay behind the blue to give the paler and darker effect rather than light shining through ... if you see what I mean?
But what I could not see in the link pics was that looking at the bowl side on, the background clear just looks acid etched plain glass.  However when you get the light behind it you can see vermicular engraving all over the background clear glass - it's stunning.
It's not quite as big as I imagined, so by comparison my vase/decanter feels like a fairly ok sized piece of work, especially considering how tiny (cabinet sized) many hand carved pieces of cameo glass are  :)

I hope I'm ok to post these pics - they are mine and I was allowed to take pictures in there. 
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 30, 2013, 01:45:36 AM
Just adding for reference
I've been through the Fischer's archives and searched 960 bechers  :o
Found two
this one (scroll down to second one down)
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/search.html?L=1&suche=becher&archiv=1&cHash=807ee99108&gwoffset=87
'Nordböhmen, um 1860'

and this one
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/210-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=102&artikel=26481&L=1&cHash=0e79a907d3
date c.1860
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on November 02, 2013, 03:10:43 PM
Actually have looked carefully at image link number one and it's not a double overlay.  Only blue I believe.
So 960 bechers in the Fischer's archives I've searched and only 1 in the same design in double overlay.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 20, 2014, 07:11:04 AM
A recent Bonhams Auction 13 December 2013
Lot 10 shows this becher with dog and vines.  It is dated 1866.
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21673/lot/10/
It is blue over clear only, not three layer, and attributed to Karl Pfohl.
In the description there is reference to the 'scroll work' and that one with 'closely related scrollwork' is in the Passauer attributed to Karl Pfohl.  The scrollwork looks like the work on my vase.
No three layer cameo pieces in the sale though despite 10 of these two layer pieces.

The description reads:
'A Bohemian cameo beaker attributed to Karl Pfohl, Steinschönau, dated 1866
Overlaid in cobalt blue, of campana shape on a spreading foot cut with ovals and trefoils, cut and engraved in shallow cameo with a dog standing on the forked branches of foliate scrollwork, a lens on the reverse engraved with the date 6/2/1866, 16.8cm high
FOOTNOTES
A tall goblet with cameo work including closely related scrollwork attributed to Karl Pfohl, is in the Passauer Glasmuseum, illustrated by Georg Höltl, Das Böhmische Glas 1700-1950, vol.3 Historismus, p.68, fig.76. Other similar pieces have been attributed to Franz Zach, including a goblet in the Rinceaux Collection, Sotheby's 18 December 2001, lot 160
'

Another that is just interesting to look at - dated 1850-1860 and detailed cameo work
Intricate Stangenglas  Lot 11  11th Dec 2013, dated 1850-1860 and described as
'A Bohemian cameo glass stangenglas'
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21673/lot/11/
Red over clear matted background, quite an intricate design
Description of piece is as follows
'A Bohemian cameo glass stangenglas, circa 1850-60
The tall cylinder tapering slightly and raised on a panelled spreading foot, overlaid in deep ruby and cut, etched and engraved back to the clear frosted ground beneath, a group of carousing revellers seated among casks, vines and fruit festoons, surmounted by a further figure astride a barrel, a banner inscribed Gott erhalte uns junges Blut und alten Wein, the reverse with a viewing lens between tall vines, 33.5cm high
'

All 10 pieces are  Bohemian cameo glass and dated variously between 1850 and 1870.



m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 20, 2014, 08:20:12 AM
see my latest post above
and I ran out of time to add this -

Note:
Going back through the posts on this thread - this bowl (see link below) I believe was made by the same person as made my decanter.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2089227
In the Harrach book (From Neuwelt to the Whole World) on page 83, there appears to be a becher that matches the pink colour.  It is pink overlay on white overlay on clear (although in their description they did not mention that it was pink overlay on white over clear, they just said pink on clear which it is not).  It has various designs cut through to show the layers and also has a portrait medallion on it. Although it is not a cameo piece the colour I think, matches the pink bowl linked above, of which the design matches my decanter.

In the description of the becher it says:
'Beaker with embedded paste - portrait of W. Batka'
execution: c.1850
h. 13.6cm
West Bohemian Museum, Pizen, inv.no 11187
Colourless glass with opaque pink overlay glass, cut, with embedded porcelain paste.  Engraved on the bottom "Batka dedicav".

In the 1840s Wenzel Batka was one of the main suppliers of raw materials (chemicals) to the Neuwelt glassworks. '


I'm pretty sure that is a good match for the pink over white over clear bowl.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 20, 2014, 05:15:59 PM
Only one of my links that I put in the earlier post on this thread remains
so I'm adding it and an image url again just in case.  It's the becher from the Ludwig collection.
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/typo3temp/pics/7428-19_14913d8b1d.jpg
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/210-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=102&artikel=26481&L=1&cHash=0e79a907d3

Auction 210 Dr Fischers - lot number 257
'257 - BECHER MIT DOPPELÜBERFANG NORDBÖHMEN, UM 1860 FARBLOSES, ERST WEISS, DANN BLAU...
Farbloses, erst weiß, dann blau überfangenes Glas, in Schichtgravur dekoriert mit Weinranken und Trauben. Oberhalb des Standes Kugelschliff-Bordüre. H. 14 cm Ehemals Sammlung Ludwig, Regensburg.
Nordböhmen, um 1860'


I also found this interesting tumble up night flask.  CAtalogue 219, lot 208
It's three layer blue over white over clear and is the opposite to cameo in that the design has been cut through the layers to show the white and clear and no cameo work on the blue.  But the interesting part is that it is a sort of 'pre-cursor' to my flask - the design is vines and grapes.  The leaves have been created by cutting away the blue layer and leaving the leaves in white (gilded and silvered enamel) and then the grapes created by cutting 'bunches' of lenses through the blue, leaving a white surround and leaving clear glass in the middle.  It is actually dated on the piece "Palmsonntag 1849"
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/typo3temp/pics/8059-5_8e982cd6b3.jpg
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/219-european-glass-and-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=102&artikel=36564&L=1&cHash=413081b5b6
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 21, 2014, 06:32:50 PM
I'm up to 2000 bechers searched (and the rest  ::)  but I'm only counting Dr Fischer archives  which I'm now up to date on) and 220 flakons and flasches etc and nothing, except that one becher.
m

Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 05, 2015, 11:08:12 PM
The picture has a James D Julia watermark -it's of a white over pink version of the grapes and vines in vase form.
On the Prices4antiques site the listing apparently said
'Webb Glass; Cameo, Vase, Branches with Leaves & Grapes, Pink & White, 18 inch.'

The description of the vase is that it is 'monumental'

'Webb Glass; Cameo, Vase, Branches with Leaves & Grapes, Pink & White, 18 inch.

A Webb Cameo [glass] vase, carved pink and white over clear cameo pattern of grapes, leaves and branches decorate this monumental size vase. Signed on... [more detail available via subscription]

p4A Item E8959152
Category:    glass        Origin:    England
Type:    webb        Year:    1875 - 1910'

The cameo decoration has a very close similarity to that on my vase.

I don't think I agree with the description identification.  And it may have been sold with that identification because of the bowl discussed at this point on the thread which appears to have a spurious Webb mark:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51272.msg307118.html#msg307118

Sorry about the source references but I haven't been able to get the original James D. Julia listing up so unfortunately have no idea how long ago it was sold.
m

http://www.prices4antiques.com/Webb-Glass-Cameo-Vase-Branches-with-Leaves-Grapes-Pink-White-18-inch-E8959152.html

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/e6/f2/ef/e6f2efbe5c0cd8916b4da9d1ff54b187.jpg
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on April 05, 2016, 10:56:35 PM
In my reply #11 on this thread I talked about the paucity of information about Bohemian cameo glass produced in the mid 19th century-
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51272.msg292956.html#msg292956

I have just come across a book called 'Colonial homes and their furnishings' by Mary Northend.  It was written in 1917.
 In that book the following:

'At the commencement of the seventeenth century, some of the Bohemian manufacturers were producing vases of various shapes enriched with engraved ornaments, representing scenes, and frequently portraits. Some of the former type are shown in the wonderful collection owned by Mr. W. J. Mitchell at Manchester, Massachusetts. With the pronounced popularity of the Bohemian engraved vases, artists in other countries began decorating their ware in like fashion, those of France employing interlaced flowers. These were etched on, rather than engraved, however, and cheapened the ware; in other countries the results obtained were no better, all failing to compare with the Bohemian specimens, for the art of engraving here had been learned from long experience by workmen who were experts in their line.

Many Bohemian pieces showed an original decoration in the way of ornamentations in relief on the outside, while the art of cameo incrustation was also first used by Bohemian workers, who sometimes varied it to obtain odd and pleasing effects by engraving through an outer casing of colored glass into an interior of white, transparent, or enameled glass.  One such specimen, a salt cellar, is shown in the Mitchell collection.'

So Bohemian cameo glass was acknowledged clearly in this book, and is clearly denoted as cameo glass, and the description of the process is clearly that of the cameo process.

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: KevinH on April 05, 2016, 11:55:11 PM
m,

Are the two quoted paragraphs consecutive entries in the book? It just seems misleading that it starts with "... commencement of the seventeenth century ..." and then flows into the second paragraph talking about cameo work [which I thought was first revived in the 19th C.]

And another possible confusion is the use of the term "cameo incrustation" ... which was a British term for "Sulphide" [Apsley Pellatt, etc.].
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on April 06, 2016, 09:34:01 AM
good points:

1. Yes they are consecutive paragraphs, I literally copied and pasted, hence the first paragraph not really having anything to do with cameo glass, to show that they follow on from each other.

One of the reasons I did that was because the author does not denote or mention time frame between the first paragraph where she mentions 17th century, and the subsequent paragraph. 
The book was written in I think 1912 so it's reasonable to assume the glass she discusses in the second paragraph was made between 17th century and 1912.  (To me, from what I have read in many other books etc,  it is obviously referring to glass made in the 19th century though).

Perhaps she doesn't mention time frame because she is unsure whether it actually is 19th century or 18th century.  The Chinese were making cameo glass in the 18th century iirc (need to check that and give a reference).


The second reason was to demonstrate that it appears to me, the first paragraph is all about engraved glass, and the second paragraph was about a different method i.e. cameo glass. 

The reason I think, that it reads oddly, as it is in the context of her doing a Chapter on glass within a book of various decorative techniques.  So she is skimming the surface of French glass, English glass, Bohemian glass etc. rather than it being in any detail.  However she has seen fit to describe two specific processes of Bohemian glass that are outstanding, i.e. their early engraved glass and then bas relief and cameo overlay glass.


2. 'And another possible confusion is the use of the term "cameo incrustation" ... which was a British term for "Sulphide" [Apsley Pellat, etc.].
Interesting point. 

I think she was discussing three processes that all come under the banner of cameo glass or bas relief carved glass, as opposed to engraved glass where there is no relief layer on the picture and the engraving is 'cut' into the body of the glass.  And I think she used process 1 and process 2 to describe the execution of appearance of process 3:

'Many Bohemian pieces showed an original decoration in the way of ornamentations in relief on the outside    (process 1.  To me this would be bas relief carved pieces (where there is no overlay glass and the carving is on one layer of glass only, or where there is cameo cut from one colour glass to a interior layer of a different coloured glass), whether the decoration was all over the body of the piece  or just in a specific 'medallion' on the vase/goblet (medallion in this case denotes a large delineated oval cartouche where there is a bas relief or cameo carved scene within it) ,

while the art of cameo incrustation was also first used by Bohemian workers (process 2.  To me this would be the incrusted (ceramic) cameos on the outside of goblets for example ),

who sometimes varied it to obtain odd and pleasing effects by engraving through an outer casing of colored glass into an interior of white, transparent, or enameled glass (process 3.  e.g. my decanter, or the goblets such as those that are overlay or double overlay glass ( example in the Corning of the ?Karl Pfohl lidded goblet) and have carved a scene of some sort in what is called a 'medallion' on 19th century Bohemian glass).   

One such specimen, a salt cellar, is shown in the Mitchell collection.'   Rather unfortunately whilst there are examples shown, this particular one is not.  Also unfortunately, it is a salt cellar.  Which means it could either represent a cameo incrustation with the incrustation in the base (in the likeness of a cameo incrusted sulphide paperweight I guess) or could be a piece as I have described for process 3. with the piece double or single overlaid and cameo engraved. 
I thought of it as being a cameo piece rather than a sulphide with overlays cut to clear on the outside of the piece,  because she used the word 'engraved' rather than cut.

Hmm, so I think the entire paragraphs describes cameo glass (i.e. bas relief carved glass much in the way a cameo is traditionally in relief against a background of flat surface), which is why she included cameo incrustations,  but her use of the actual word 'cameo' might, as you say, refer only to cameo incrustations i.e. sulphides.
 
Ok, so she is may not specifically be calling Bohemian mid 19th century cameo glass, 'cameo glass', but she is at least referring to Bohemian mid 19th century cameo glass, which is more reference than I have been able to find elsewhere in other books.  Hence my comments earlier in the thread berating the fact that Roman, Chinese and English cameo glass is discussed but querying where was the acknowledgement of the Bohemian mid 19th century cameo glass which was so extraordinary (different to other glass at that time, and especially the double overlay cameo pieces were remarkable, renewing old processes, and very difficult to make at that time particularly in double overlay never mind single overlay cameo) and beautiful?

Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on April 06, 2016, 01:18:06 PM
huge apologies for the length and poor grammar of my last sentence  :-[ Notes to self - try not to write as you think and read before posting.

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on April 06, 2016, 01:44:20 PM
umm, when I said that perhaps she didn't know what century those pieces belonged to (whether 18th or 19th) I really did think she was talking about the 19th.  However ...
have just discovered this book written in 1852! and it says (I have cut and pasted so any typos not mine):
'To retmn, however, to decorative glass work belonging more particularly to our own day. Two remarkable novelties were patented by Mr, Pellatt a few years ago, foimded on processes which had before to some extent been practised by the Bohemians. These are Cameo Incrustation and CrystalJo
Engraving. About a century ago, the Bohemian glass-makers excited surprise by producing bas-relief casts of busts and medals, enclosed within a coating of white flint-glass; and it was an extension of this art that became the subject of one of the patents mentioned above.'
Source - The curiosities of industry and the applied sciences, George Dodd, 1852.

That kind of implies to me, that the Bohemian glass-makers were producing bas-relief casts of busts and medals, enclosed within a coating of white flint-glass in around 1752.

Kev have you read this book?
m

So perhaps she didn't date specifically her comments in that paragraph because the techniques did indeed span two centuries of experience and production.

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on April 06, 2016, 05:36:02 PM
Encyclopaedia Britannica says this
http://www.britannica.com/art/crystallo-ceramie

'Crystallo ceramie, also called Cameo Incrustation, Crystal Cameo, orSulphides,
crystallo ceramie
cut crystal glass in which a decorative ceramic object is embedded. A Bohemian invention of the 18th century, cameo incrustation was taken up in Paris but had no vogue until Apsley Pellatt, an English glassmaker, developed a technique that resulted in specimens of genuine beauty. In 1819 Pellatt patented his process under the name crystallo ceramie and began to issue his ware from the Falcon Glasshouse in Southwark. His cast bas-relief decorations—which usually were profile portraits of royalty and celebrities or coats-of-arms—were made of a fine white china clay and supersilicate of potash that would not fracture in contact with molten glass. The objects, which have a silvery appearance, are embedded in exceptionally clear flint glass; refraction and illumination from behind are often enhanced by crosscutting and faceting, and outer curves magnify the image. Crystallo ceramie was made in forms such as paperweights, decanters, stoppers, scent bottles, pendants, and various ornamental tableware items.

Pellatt’s work is sometimes referred to as incrusted glass, or incrusted cameos; crystal cameos; or sulphides. The term sulphides, however, is particularly associated with such cameo paperweights as those issued by John Ford & Co., of Edinburgh, about 1875, which were of a quality comparable to Pellatt’s and to equally successful work from Baccarat, in France.'


I think therefore that she was referring to different processes?
The link I gave above shows an example of what I was imagining.
m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: KevinH on April 06, 2016, 06:17:35 PM
m, Thanks for all that ...  ;D

1. I have used my moderator skills to quietly update an error on my part ... I had missed the final "t" from Mr Pellatt's name!! And I do always read my text before posting - must try harder!

2. I have not seen the 1852 book you mentioned. But I do have a (reprint) copy of Apsley Pellatt's 1849 book Curiosities of Glass Making. The text you quoted from the 1852 book is basically a rewording of what Pellatt wrote (and I suspect that much of the Wiki info you mentioned uses a similar source):
Quote
Cameo Incrustation was unknown to the ancients, and was first introduced by the Bohemians, probably about a century since; and Bas-relief casts of busts, and medals, were entirely isolated by them within a coating or mass of white Flint Glass.

* For those not already aware, in this context, "Flint Glass" in the above quote means "Clear glass".

3. I agree that Mary Northend, in her 1917 book was referring to different processes. Your extra info about the overall content of her book does seem to explain what I would call generalizations of her text and the use of the term "cameo incrustation".

4. Your link to the "crystallo ceramie" item is, indeed, what Pellatt was referring to. In his book, he gives a full explanation of the process, with figure illustrations. And yes, the Encyclopaedia Britannica reference to John Ford of Scotland is in relation to exactly that type of "incrustation". (I have an example of a domed paperweight by that company and the sulphide is set internally, but very close to one surface - in a "broadly similar" way that a sulphide would appear when added to a goblet etc.)
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on August 02, 2016, 02:55:44 PM
I thought I had added this link but perhaps not:

Earlier in this thread I think I linked or talked about Carl Günther / Gunther / Guenther

Some time ago and again today I came across this description written in 1851 in
'The International Monthly, Volume 4, No. 3, October, 1851'

Bohemian glass is a chapter from page 292 in that book (or second chapter in on this link)- the description is fascinating.

It discusses in great detail,  the cutting and finishing and glass making that went on in 1851 and specifically describes the work of one Charles Antoin Günther who I think is the same person as the Carl Günther / Gunther /Guenther as I've linked to or mentioned earlier in the thread.

I wonder from the description of Günther's engravings and his inspiration, whether some of the pieces identified as Karl Pfohl might be by Carl Günther (or Charles Antoin Günther).

'One man whom I visited is an extraordinary genius, rarely to be met with; he has been driven by the force of that same genius, to seek abroad, in France and Bavaria (Munich), food for his mind, and has brought back with him several folio works of engravings from the best masters, from which he designs. Placing before him one of these works, a Raphael or a Rubens, he either copies the group, or composes from them to suit the form of his vase, which he thus embellishes with the most exquisite figures; his name is Charles Antoin Günther. He lives in a little block-house, as humble as the commonest of those above described, on the declivity of a brae, by a small stream, on which stand the little scattered village of Steinschönau. It is composed of only two apartments below, of which his work-room is one, and which is not above ten feet square, with just space enough to hold four little lathes for engraving glass, at one of which he works himself, while the others are occupied by three boys, the youngest twelve and a-half years old, the eldest fifteen! They all engrave beautifully, pieces laid before them by Günther, and which they follow with a faithfulness and spirit only to be believed on personal inspection. He was at work himself on a vase goblet, of the shape of the usual green hock-glass, but which might contain a bottle; it was lapis lazuli blue, enriched by a group of Bacchanalian Cupids and vine-leaves of his own composition, and worked with a spirit and freedom worthy of some of the masters by whose works he was surrounded. What struck me most, was one of those exquisite little figures of Raphael's, in his great picture of the "Madona del Sixto," in the Royal Gallery at Dresden. The cherub leaning on the parapet, with his chin resting on one hand, as he gazes on the Virgin; it is exquisitely drawn in pencil, a fac-simile, and pinned on the wooden wall of the engraver's cottage, immediately opposite his seat. I asked him how he first traced on the glass the subjects which he was to cut; he replied by taking up a plain glass without any figure or indication on its surface, and asking me what subject I should like engraved. On my replying that, being an old deer-stalker, I should be very well pleased with a stag; he immediately applied the wheel to the glass, and in five minutes by my watch, produced one of the most splendid, spirited animals I ever saw in the forest, and really worthy of Landseer; the stag is making a spring over some broken palings and rough foreground, and his action and parts can only be appreciated by those who have lived with the deer on the hill and watched them with the feelings of a hill-man, like Günther, who has had opportunities of seeing the deer in his own native woods, where they abound. I brought this glass away with me, though in itself but an inferior article; merely as a specimen of what I had seen done by this man in the space of five minutes, without a copy or any thing to guide him on the smooth surface of the goblet.

I send you sketches of the artist and his dwelling; and as the portrait exhibits, at the same time, his native costume, it will be the more interesting, and cannot fail to give a correct idea of the character of this Bohemian mountaineer.

The sketch of Günther's House will also afford an idea of these Bohemian artisans' dwellings, more so than any written description could do. I send you with it a drawing of another of these picturesque houses.

There are two classes of persons engaged, on a large scale, in the exportation of Bohemian glass—the fabricant and the collector; generally speaking, however, the latter is the[Pg 294] direct exporter, and he also superintends the cutting, painting, and packing. The fabricant is more frequently engaged in furnishing the collector, and to a great extent, with the glass in its original and more simple forms as it comes from the furnace, and it is then cut and painted by the cottagers who surround the dwelling of the collector; so that many of these villages are entirely formed by the collector and his people. Others however, employed in the same way, cluster round the fabrique; but even their productions for the most part go to the collectors, who have their correspondents in America, Spain, Turkey, Greece, England, &c.

As might be expected, there is a considerable difference in the designs of different houses; some are much superior to others, both as to color and design. Those of Egermann, in Hyda, who has added many new and valuable discoveries in the art of making and coloring the glass, and Hoffman, in Prague, are the best I have visited, to which may be added Zahn, in Steinschönau, for whom Günter engraves. Egerman's establishment in Hyda, for cutting, painting, and engraving, is very considerable, and exhibits first-rate talent, which can only be appreciated by a personal inspection of his works; and the taste and judgment of Hoffman, in Prague, in his selections, the designs he gives, and the artists he employs, cannot be surpassed, if equalled, in Germany. He has entirely abandoned the modern school, and returned to the first principles of art,[3] and produces, both in form and decorations, subjects worthy of the ancient masters.'

http://gutenberg.readingroo.ms/3/6/5/6/36564/36564-h/36564-h.htm#GLASS_OF_BOHEMIA
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 08, 2017, 11:36:25 PM
I have found this becher in the Moravska Galerie and they have a date on it of  2nd quarter 19th century (ie. 1825-1850). 
The design of the cameo is very similar in subject and style (vines, leaves, curls, blue etc), but not the same hand as mine in my opinion. I thought mine would have dated a bit later than that but this is the date they have on theirs:

http://sbirky.moravska-galerie.cz/images/diela/MG./93/CZE_MG.U_25688/CZE_MG.U_25688.jpeg

'datace:   2. čtvrt. 19. stol.'
' inventární číslo:   U 25688'

I have not yet checked to see if it was the one sold that I'd found previously.

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 09, 2017, 09:38:32 PM
this is one of the ~Dr Fischer auction pieces for comparison - I don't believe it is the same glass as the one in the Moravia Gallerie
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/210-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=102&artikel=26481&L=1&cHash=0e79a907d3

The other link I gave to the other Fischer becher is not working now unfortunately.

Fischer has theirs as c.1860 - the Gallerie has it as 2nd quarter 19th century.

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on October 17, 2017, 09:15:34 PM
There is one in the Muzeum Šumavy Susice belonging I think to the Bruno Schreibera collection.
(I get confused with Czech places/words - so it is possible it's the same one as featured in the Moravske Galerie online but I don't think so.)

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on August 14, 2019, 11:13:29 PM
This is not relevant really but I thought I'd add it here.


It's a reproduction of the Portland Vase by Franz Zach and it's in the Royal Albert Memorial museum in Exeter.  I came across it accidentally and although I'd read about it elsewhere I'd no idea it was in that museum:

https://www.rammuseum.org.uk/collections/decorative-arts/

https://www.rammuseum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/portlandvase-4-300x300.jpg

I also came across another goblet by Zach in the catalogue of the 1862 exhibition.  It was apparently made specifically for a Madame Temple:
page 28 of the catalogue, engraving (poor) of it on the bottom right hand side:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zp0DAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=international+exhibition+1862&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX95SZnoPkAhUhQxUIHSSJAq4Q6AEIRTAF#v=onepage&q=bohemian&f=false

Different to the one purchased by the V&A from the 1855 Paris Exhibition.
see here for that one:
http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/g/glass-goblet-by-franz-paul-zach/

I wonder what happened to the 1862 one?  It says very little about it except ' a cup of great beauty, carved by the eminent Artist Zach, expressly for Madame Temple ...' 
Weird that the very large goblet in the V&A disappeared from sight over to the Museum of Childhood for many years and was forgotten about, yet in 1862 Zach was described as 'the eminent artist, Zach'.
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on July 13, 2021, 10:06:26 PM
This description from 1851 is copied from an article in The Art-Union Monthly Journal of the Arts Volume X 1848  so written 3 years earlier than the previous link I found at least:
See page 6

The most relevant bit to this thread and my piece of glass is his description of meeting Charles Antoin Gunther ( Carl Gunther ? I presume) :

'He was at work himself on a vase goblet, of the shape of the usual green hock-glass, but which might contain a bottle; it was lapis lazuli blue, enriched by a group of Bacchanalian Cupids and vine-leaves of his own composition, and worked with a spirit and freedom worthy of some of the masters by whose works he was surrounded. '

I'm wondering if this piece he was working on was anything like the Franz Zach vase here in the V&A:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O709/goblet-zach-franz-paul/


I thought I had added this link but perhaps not:

Earlier in this thread I think I linked or talked about Carl Günther / Gunther / Guenther

Some time ago and again today I came across this description written in 1851 in
'The International Monthly, Volume 4, No. 3, October, 1851'

Bohemian glass is a chapter from page 292 in that book (or second chapter in on this link)- the description is fascinating.

It discusses in great detail,  the cutting and finishing and glass making that went on in 1851 and specifically describes the work of one Charles Antoin Günther who I think is the same person as the Carl Günther / Gunther /Guenther as I've linked to or mentioned earlier in the thread.

I wonder from the description of Günther's engravings and his inspiration, whether some of the pieces identified as Karl Pfohl might be by Carl Günther (or Charles Antoin Günther).

'One man whom I visited is an extraordinary genius, rarely to be met with; he has been driven by the force of that same genius, to seek abroad, in France and Bavaria (Munich), food for his mind, and has brought back with him several folio works of engravings from the best masters, from which he designs. Placing before him one of these works, a Raphael or a Rubens, he either copies the group, or composes from them to suit the form of his vase, which he thus embellishes with the most exquisite figures; his name is Charles Antoin Günther. He lives in a little block-house, as humble as the commonest of those above described, on the declivity of a brae, by a small stream, on which stand the little scattered village of Steinschönau. It is composed of only two apartments below, of which his work-room is one, and which is not above ten feet square, with just space enough to hold four little lathes for engraving glass, at one of which he works himself, while the others are occupied by three boys, the youngest twelve and a-half years old, the eldest fifteen! They all engrave beautifully, pieces laid before them by Günther, and which they follow with a faithfulness and spirit only to be believed on personal inspection. He was at work himself on a vase goblet, of the shape of the usual green hock-glass, but which might contain a bottle; it was lapis lazuli blue, enriched by a group of Bacchanalian Cupids and vine-leaves of his own composition, and worked with a spirit and freedom worthy of some of the masters by whose works he was surrounded. What struck me most, was one of those exquisite little figures of Raphael's, in his great picture of the "Madona del Sixto," in the Royal Gallery at Dresden. The cherub leaning on the parapet, with his chin resting on one hand, as he gazes on the Virgin; it is exquisitely drawn in pencil, a fac-simile, and pinned on the wooden wall of the engraver's cottage, immediately opposite his seat. I asked him how he first traced on the glass the subjects which he was to cut; he replied by taking up a plain glass without any figure or indication on its surface, and asking me what subject I should like engraved. On my replying that, being an old deer-stalker, I should be very well pleased with a stag; he immediately applied the wheel to the glass, and in five minutes by my watch, produced one of the most splendid, spirited animals I ever saw in the forest, and really worthy of Landseer; the stag is making a spring over some broken palings and rough foreground, and his action and parts can only be appreciated by those who have lived with the deer on the hill and watched them with the feelings of a hill-man, like Günther, who has had opportunities of seeing the deer in his own native woods, where they abound. I brought this glass away with me, though in itself but an inferior article; merely as a specimen of what I had seen done by this man in the space of five minutes, without a copy or any thing to guide him on the smooth surface of the goblet.

I send you sketches of the artist and his dwelling; and as the portrait exhibits, at the same time, his native costume, it will be the more interesting, and cannot fail to give a correct idea of the character of this Bohemian mountaineer.

The sketch of Günther's House will also afford an idea of these Bohemian artisans' dwellings, more so than any written description could do. I send you with it a drawing of another of these picturesque houses.

There are two classes of persons engaged, on a large scale, in the exportation of Bohemian glass—the fabricant and the collector; generally speaking, however, the latter is the[Pg 294] direct exporter, and he also superintends the cutting, painting, and packing. The fabricant is more frequently engaged in furnishing the collector, and to a great extent, with the glass in its original and more simple forms as it comes from the furnace, and it is then cut and painted by the cottagers who surround the dwelling of the collector; so that many of these villages are entirely formed by the collector and his people. Others however, employed in the same way, cluster round the fabrique; but even their productions for the most part go to the collectors, who have their correspondents in America, Spain, Turkey, Greece, England, &c.

As might be expected, there is a considerable difference in the designs of different houses; some are much superior to others, both as to color and design. Those of Egermann, in Hyda, who has added many new and valuable discoveries in the art of making and coloring the glass, and Hoffman, in Prague, are the best I have visited, to which may be added Zahn, in Steinschönau, for whom Günter engraves. Egerman's establishment in Hyda, for cutting, painting, and engraving, is very considerable, and exhibits first-rate talent, which can only be appreciated by a personal inspection of his works; and the taste and judgment of Hoffman, in Prague, in his selections, the designs he gives, and the artists he employs, cannot be surpassed, if equalled, in Germany. He has entirely abandoned the modern school, and returned to the first principles of art,[3] and produces, both in form and decorations, subjects worthy of the ancient masters.'

http://gutenberg.readingroo.ms/3/6/5/6/36564/36564-h/36564-h.htm#GLASS_OF_BOHEMIA
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 06, 2022, 03:54:53 PM
See page 20 of the book, which appears to be page 13 of this link.

https://www.moser.com/file/edee/downloads/moser_book_eng.pdf

Source: The book ' Moser since 1857' published 2017

The book is fully copyrighted.  Mods please feel free to remove the link if this infringes copyright.

The book shows a becher similar in shape and cameo cut overlay to those I've linked before on this thread.  The one in the book is engraved with just the white overlay vine leaves, not white and blue.
The chalice  shown below it is also just the white overlay but very similar in the overall cut design including the cut design around the base, to my flakon.

I presumed my flakon was 'saved' because of the work that had gone into the cameo.  I wonder if it was from Moser.
The date they give is c.1865. 


'© Concept and text Jan Mergl, Lenka Merglová Pánková, 2017
© Photo Gabriel Urbánek, Miroslav Vojtěchovský, Petr Vaněk, Martin Prokeš,
Petr Adámek, Lukáš Pelech, Josef Zvolánek, Ondřej Hošt,
Film Servis Festival Karlovy Vary
© Graphic design and typesetting KANTORS CREATIVE CLUB
© MOSER, a. s., 2017
All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced or copied in mechanical or
electronic form and disseminated by any information system whatsoever without the
prior written permission of the copyright owner.
Reproduction on flyleaf:
Otto Tauschek, Ex libris Leo Moser, etching, 1911 (private collection)
Moser 1857–2017. 1 st ed.
ISBN 978-80-270-1135-3'

Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 07, 2022, 12:05:03 PM
See page 20 of the book, which appears to be page 13 of this link.

https://www.moser.com/file/edee/downloads/moser_book_eng.pdf

Source: The book ' Moser since 1857' published 2017

The book is fully copyrighted.  Mods please feel free to remove the link if this infringes copyright.

The book shows a becher similar in shape and cameo cut overlay to those I've linked before on this thread. 


In my comment above I was referring to a becher I linked to under a) here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51272.msg292956.html#msg292956

Unfortunately the picture is no longer available on the link, just the sale data, but I have the sale catalogue books here at home and the becher is the same blue and white vine design as my flakon, and very similar to the white only cameo vine becher shown in the Moser book.

I think Leo Moser could be a contender for the carver for my flakon.  Glass produced at Neuwelt.

m
Title: Re: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?
Post by: flying free on February 07, 2022, 09:37:51 PM
In my comment above I was referring to a becher I linked to under a) here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51272.msg292956.html#msg292956

Unfortunately the picture is no longer available on the link, just the sale data, but I have the sale catalogue books here at home and the becher is the same blue and white vine design as my flakon, and very similar to the white only cameo vine becher shown in the Moser book.

I think Leo Moser could be a contender for the carver for my flakon.  Glass produced at Neuwelt.

m

I meant Ludwig Moser - mis-type
m