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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Murano & Italy Glass => Topic started by: Andy on March 21, 2008, 01:50:58 PM

Title: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on March 21, 2008, 01:50:58 PM
This unusual vase has everything :o , its cased, crackle glazed multicolours, loads of Gold , 2
opalescent lions , foot is bolted on,
Its got to be italian, and im sure it should be moved there shortly, i think its probably very early
20thC, or 19thCentury.

I dont know where to start with this one :huh: , its a goody though! (its not chinese!)

Any clues ?
Andy 8)
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on March 22, 2008, 01:34:07 PM
Ive noticed this also has a folded foot! And im beginning to wonder if it is a very early piece?
maybe early 19thc , theres some very early plaster or glue around the brass foot,and for such a
fine item, the body of the vase is a bit lumpy, a few imperfections here and there. Does anyone
agree i should go back in time?

Regards
Andy 8)

edit just lookin in a little book, ,Murano, a history of glass,
theres some stuff in the 16th Century with similarities :o  Blimey maybe ive found a museum piece!
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: uphoosier on March 22, 2008, 01:47:03 PM
One of the keys to dating this will be in the threads and ridges on the nut holding the base on.  Use a loupe to look at the ridges.  If  the piece is early 19th or before, you should see hand tooling marks on it.  If any marks you see and consistent and uniform, the nut is machine made, and likely late 19th century or later.   May I ask how you came across it?
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on March 22, 2008, 02:48:51 PM
Hi uphoosier,
well, i cant see tool marks on the nut, of course it could have been replaced, it looks like some
toolwork on the end of the bolt though. The metal base, i presume is gold plated.
heres a few new photos of base, the lions and a little brown speck of gold glass , stuck to the
outside.
Cheer Andy

ps im not too keen on taking the bolt off though :-\

Oh , an sorry , forgot the other Question, i got this and 5 or 6 other nice bits in a local auction
i expect a house clearance from a poor ex collector, no longer with us :'(
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on March 29, 2008, 12:58:47 PM
Just thought id bump this one up as it got lost in all the busyness and hardwork done at Easter.
And it is quite an interesting lump of glass ;)

Anyone have any ideas on age? or maybe the opalescent Lions point to a maker??

Cheers
Andy
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Leni on March 29, 2008, 01:12:57 PM
Well, the lion is the symbol of St Mark, and St Mark is the patron saint of Venice  :-\   That's all I can say, I'm afraid!  But it is a very beautiful piece of glass!  :D   
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: krsilber on March 30, 2008, 06:34:31 AM
Boy, that is quite a fascinating piece!  What are the layers?  Green on the inside, then white, then I can't tell.  Is that some sort of enamel, that's crackled and colorful?  It looks sort of like it has texture.

What's the stuff just above the top of the metal part of the base, glue or something?  I wonder whether it's possible the base was added at a later date, like maybe the original foot broke or something.  Seems a little odd, using that color glass for the base...but then, the whole thing's a bit odd!

Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on March 30, 2008, 11:33:26 AM
Thanks Leni and Kristi,
I think i have a clue now where it was made, and may ask for it to moved to the other board later,
but prefer it to stay here for a while for anyone else to see it!

Kristi, i see something new in it everytime i look closely! its certainly green on the inside, im not
sure if there is then a white layer, around the top it appears there may be, and then the multi coloured
layer is on top of that,  I think it has then been cased in clear glass, from the base of the neck,
and the crackle effect starts from there, i presume its been dipped and  cooled after the clear layer has been
appllied, to crackle just the cased clear glass. i can imagine , held by the top, dipped to the shoulder.
At the base of the vase between the gold foot, there is some very old and thick glue or plaster, it does
look like an old amateur repair, maybe the foot became loose, or , as you say, its had a new foot added!

Maybe more clues to help date it?
Anyone ??  (Adam, how do you think it was made?)
An interesting piece ;D
Andy
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 30, 2008, 12:20:57 PM
I think perhaps it could be very old, and that even the repair ('new' foot) is old (18C). Crackle glass first appeared in Italy in  the 16C (part crackling was used) and aventurine a similar sort of time. Plaster has also been around for a very long time and was quite commonly used to hold metalwork to glass. Have you decided what the metal is? If it was plate, I would expect some loss; if non-precious some tarnishing or you could smell the copper

My thoughts are you have either a very old piece
or you have an old fake of a very old piece

Perhaps you should trot off to a museum with it, perhaps the V&A?
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on March 31, 2008, 12:49:03 PM
Thanks Christine,

another good tip  :D
I dont think the metal smells (or tastes  :P) of anything, so i deduct it may be gold plated.
As i mentioned, the crackling is only on the applied clear layer, its different to
other crackling ive seen, more a texture, a bit more 'molten ' in appearence and feel to others.
Its almost a bit skin like in appearance. ( Im inventing new words for describing glass ;D)

Regards
Andy
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 31, 2008, 02:01:06 PM
I think perhaps that sort of crackling is not uncommon on older glass, I certainly have at least one piece (1930s) with skin-type crackling (who mentioned roast pork  >:D ) where you can feel the cracks.
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on April 25, 2008, 02:20:21 PM
I have to do a bit more research on this vase, it would be nice to get a date, (or a guess)

Any one have any more ideas, or anyone specialise in old Murano/Venitian ?

Cheers Andy
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Frank on April 25, 2008, 03:26:47 PM
I am sure the base is a repair and probably dates to 50s/60s. Probably varnished brass rather than geld plated though. No idea on the glass, probably best in the Murano forum.
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: TxSilver on April 26, 2008, 02:59:59 AM
A smelz vase with a design like your vase is shown on page 88 of Osborne's Venetian Glass of the 1890s: Salviati at Sanford University. It has the two lion's head masks. It is cased, but there is no crackle. The foot of the vase is the same colored smelz as the vase. The vase is 24.7 cm tall. The label reads VM 598 Venice & Murano Co, Sales Cat. Salviati dr Antonio. The design in the book is from 1893. I suspect your vase was based on this design and may be this design with a different decoration. As Frank said, your base is probably repaired. The original foot probably broke. Often in the old days before the time of good glue, glass was repaired by inserting a screw into the pedestal or base of a piece of glass, then bolting the original (or replacement) base in place. I would expect the color of the foot of your vase to either be multicolored or green like the inside. I don't know if these types of repairs are still done by anyone.

Nice vase. Quite keepable. And I bet Salviati, perhaps for CVM. I think there are examples of the Stanford Collection online. Maybe the vase in the book will be among them.

BTW, for people who don't know, smelz is made by fusing different colors of glass together in swirls, so the end result looks a bit like calcedony. It resembles F. Toso's apparenza, but it is a lot bolder. Do you think the vase is smelz or is it patches of color, Andy? I am thinking the latter. Unfortunately, I can't see the picture from this page.  :(

Anita
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: TxSilver on April 26, 2008, 04:00:29 AM
I checked the Gardner and Barr site to see if they had a vase of this design. They did!  :hiclp: It is blue with aventurine, so apparently the design was made with various decorations. You can check it in the image gallery of http://www.gardnerandbarr.com/ to see if you think it is like yours.

Anita
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on April 26, 2008, 12:05:45 PM
Wow Anita , Thanks  :hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp:
great work, im working through the web at the moment, and trying to find the Stanford vase,
the Gardner and Barr vase is same design, (1878-83 catalogue)theres a few similar at the Victoria & Albert
Museum, London,obtained from Salviati in the 1860s.
Ive found some calcedony examples, which mine is not, i think its probably smelz, although doesnt
seem too 'swirly'. the colours do overlap in places, and are pulled out into the neck.
Have you got the Stanford book, is it possible to email me a pic directly, without breaking too many
copyright rules? I dont usually worry too much, but do you think its quite a valuable item?
I think Franks right about the repair, maybe done a little earlier.
As Christine said earlier, this may be worth a trip to the V & A, , i may try an email to them with this link.

I presume, Salviati made these to resemble or copy earlier examples, and im just wondering whether theres
a chance, mine may be an earlier example, quite happy either way ;D

I shall now get back to more research, thanks again for the brilliant information.
Regards
Andy ;D
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on April 26, 2008, 05:03:12 PM
Thanks Anita,
got your email, so thats 2 very similar vases, and im in good company, ive emailed Gardner & Barr,
I hope they may reply. Ive been reading more about Salviati, interesting article from NY Times,
Guiseppi Barovier, working for Salviati made a vase for Queen Victoria.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9805E2D61E31E033A25754C1A9619C94639ED7CF

Im not convinced my vase wasnt made with the metal foot, and just come loose, so been glued
and bolted later, the shape of the metalm matches the shape of the glass foot on the others.
Maybe??
I emailed the V & A Museum, but i think i will have to take it up to them one day, as it came back with an
auto reply, may try to get idea of value from one of the london Auction houses.
will keep looking for more info.
Kind regards
Andy :D

ps another fascinating , quite long article about the Stanford University collection.(by Sheldon Barr)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1026/is_3_162/ai_91088119/pg_1
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: TxSilver on April 26, 2008, 06:35:41 PM
The foot on the blue vase at the Gardner & Barr site looks different to me than the foot on the vase in the Osborne book. I checked Barr's book on Venetian Glass, Confections in Glass 1855-1914, but unfortunately the design is not pictured. I hoped to get a better look at the foot to see if the difference was only due to the viewing angle.

I haven't seen any metalwork on Salviati vases before, but I couldn't fill volumes with what I don't know.  :huh: I'm glad that you are looking more into the vase. Your thoughts on the foot may be right.

Anita
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on April 29, 2008, 04:03:05 PM
Good news  :hiclp:

I got a nice reply from Sheldon Barr, as follows, (with his permission)

' Hello Andy,

Anita is correct. Your vase is smelze. The surface is vetro ghiaccio -- (ice-glass). The technique dates to about 1570. It is characterized by its surface which resembles cracked ice. It is produced by immersing a hot glass vessel in cold water and immediately reheating it to anneal the resulting fissures. (Often, in the nineteenth century a hot, nascent vessel was rolled over a marver covered with crushed glass to pick up the fragments of glass, then reintroduced into the furnace to fuse the whole. This produced an effect similar to ice-glass. We shall call this glass: False ice glass.)

The model is illustrated in a Salviati Dott. Antonio catalogue datable to 1878-1883. (Check the Glossary on my website for more infomation on this catalogue.) Probably inspired by a 17th century vessel it was kept in production for many years.

It is broken and repaired.

Sheldon'

And on a follow up email, i asked for an idea of value, 'cos i have no idea, and he says should be
$500 plus  ;D  (even with the replaced foot!)

Regards
Andy
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: TxSilver on April 29, 2008, 06:55:49 PM
It is good to get an expert's stamp on the vase. I didn't know if it was smelz or not, since it didn't have the swirls I was used to. New thing learned -- smelz doesn't have to be swirled.

The terminology can get overwhelming at times. So many techniques can be called different things by different people. I am adding ghiaccio to my growing list of glass terms. The trouble is that I forget the term before it gets cemented into my brain well. False ice glass is a bit more rememberable :-)

Good to know you have a great vase,
Anita
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 29, 2008, 06:57:09 PM
 :hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp: another frog turned into a princess
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on April 30, 2008, 01:18:19 PM
Thanks Christine,
more good news, i even got a reply from the V & A  ;D

'Dear Andy,
thank you for your enquiry. I have shown your photographs to our expert
in Glass, who agrees that your vase is indeed Venetian and dates from
1870's to 1900. It might have been made by Salviati or the Compagnia
Venezia Murano, but he thinks it could also have been made by one of the
other Muranese firms- as these often copied each others designs and
models. The foot has been off and might be a replacement.
I hope you find this information useful.
Yours sincerely
Rowan Bain
Ceramics and Glass'

Hmmm, what to do next ::)
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: TxSilver on May 01, 2008, 12:11:22 AM
I am leaning more toward Salviati for CVM. The prunts look like they are made of girasol -- a milky blue glass that Salviati used very often. One thing that may help to get a better idea is to feel the prunts for flaws. Salviati & Co. was often criticized in the late 19th Century for being a bit less than perfect with their glass. I often find their early pieces had a lot of sharp points and imperfections in their decoration.

Something I have wondered about CVM is if the companies making glass for them (e.g., Artisti Barovier, Salviati, Fratelli Toso, & Ferro) made glass of the same designs for CVM. On one occasion I saw a perfume bottle attributed to Salviati for CVM, but later saw the same bottle with an Artisti Barovier label. 19th Century glass can be very confusing to attribute with certainty. This may have been why V&A mentioned that it could have been made by one of the other companies.

Anita
Title: Re: Cased Crackle multicolour Italian vase opalescent Lions gold etc etc
Post by: Andy on March 28, 2010, 10:46:46 PM
Thanks Anita,
2 years on, i notice i didnt thank you for your last post :thup:
Its still on the shelf, ive enjoyed it for a while but its been a bit forgotten now,so i may have some fun, and move it on to a new owner in the near future.
Sheldon Barr, said he had a possible buyer for it, but that was in the days before the
financial collapse  ;D
I wonder how it would go on ebay  ::)
I will give it some thought.
Cheers
Andy
(the chat about the 19th C Salviati pieces made me look this one up)