Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Murano & Italy Glass => Topic started by: desm on August 14, 2011, 07:31:31 PM
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Hello,
I've recently acquired a collection of around 40 pieces of mainly large Salviati style goblets, ewers, bonbon dishes and compotes. I'm told they are from Murano and from the early part of the 20th century and if anyone could provide any guidance on period, source and maybe maker that would be great. I've loaded some pics of one of the goblets, about 12" / 30cm high and fabulously ornate and in very fine glass and with great detail such as a fineline rim to bowl and foot. If you copy below to your browser you'll get to the pics, as I don't seem to be able to get the direct link to work - sorry I'm not very techie
http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k580/Desmcleish/Murano%20Collection/100_0779.jpg
http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k580/Desmcleish/Murano%20Collection/100_0780.jpg
http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k580/Desmcleish/Murano%20Collection/100_0781.jpg
Any help would be gratefully received.
Des
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Someone else will know a lot more than me about these no doubt, but when I went over to Venice a couple of years ago these were still being made.
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I also had the feeling that they were newer pieces, perhaps because they are so perfectly executed. However, I do not know the age. Absolutely lovely and I am confident that they are Venetian glass.
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Hi Des
Our organisation deals with Venetian murano glass blowing furnaces that produced Venetian goblets in the 17th century style known as FACON DE VENISE which tranlsates virtually to "IN THE VENETIAN STYLE". These goblets are definitely in the Facon De Venise style and the techniques used are similar to that of Murano, but the addition of flowers to the stem is not a known technique used when producing Venetian goblets which indicates a 98% plus chance that these are indeed Chinese or of some other origin. Please visit our website to view authtentic Facon De Venise goblets produced in Venice and you will see exactly what I mean. The stems are all wrong, the addition of flowers to the stem is a dead giveaway that they are not of Venetian origin but highly decorative none the less. The link below is just a small selection of Facon de Venice goblets, chalices etc that you can view with an embedded video showing the production of such a goblet which although it seems simple enough, it is mindblowingly difficult and can only be done by the Maestro, not his apprentices due to its technical difficulty and the fine window in which they have to work when the glass is semi solid and solid.
Please enjoy
Ciao
Dean
Mod: link to sales website removed AGAIN as sales plugs are only permitted in Market Place. Read Board Policy!
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The flowers are not the norm for Venetian stems, but there are exceptions. I located one at our member Alex's Art of Venice site. So having flowers wouldn't be a definite indicator the stem is not Venetian.
My understanding of facon de Venise is that it is a French term meaning glass that is made in the traditional Venetian style of days gone by, but that is not made in Venice. Facon de Venise glass from France and England were very popular earlier in the 20th Century. I don't know how long the phase lasted (or if ever stopped). In my mind it would be redundant to call Venetian glass facon de Venise.
I wish we could find this exact goblet so we would know where it was made. Unsigned glass can be so difficult.
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HI
You are correct about the term FACON DE VENISE which means VENETIAN FASHION. I also understand that the application of flowers could be used but from my experience, this is an extremely unusual style very rarely seen if any and if they are indeed genuine Murano, then they could have been made for a private client which is always a possibility as the Muranese do undertake these requests. In all my years, I have never seen anything like them. As our website and business is the largest of its type anywhere on the web and the MASESTRI we deal with utilise this term in their own work, I am very happy calling the glass on our website and indeed those that are similar FACON DE VENISE as the technique is still used by the furnaces we deal with and as an accurate representation of a lost 17th century technique and style. Thanks for your input also.
Dean
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Dean, one thing I've learned about Murano glass is that there are no absolutes. If it could be done in glass, at least one artist did it. What you wrote about the goblet made me think about an origin outside Murano. Venetian goblets go for a premium on the primary market, so there is incentive to make ones that will pass as the real things. I have spent a few minutes searching different sites for goblets, but have not found this design yet. The stem itself looks very Venetian, but that could be done by talented glassmakers in different countries.
Maybe someone will chance upon a documented goblet of this design.
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Hi Anita
I also concur about no absolutes when it comes to Murano glass as there are many fakes floating around. I am well aware that Venetian goblets do command a premium on the market and this is why our goblets all hand made by the Maestri of the furnaces we deal with, are all genuine and take an incredible amount of skill and time to produce. I agree that the stem does indeed look venetian but the whole composition of the goblet itself just doesn't seem right. I agree that it may have beem made by another talented glass master from another region as many of them visit venice to glean techniques used that are centuries old then apply those to their own works.
Dean
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Thanks for all the comments, that I'm afraid both help and confuse an amateur like me :-). The collection all came from one place. To help, and I know its a little cheeky, I've added some other pics of other of the glasses, some that perhaps conform more closely to Dean's helpful illustrations, but there are also others with flowers.
This is a bit of a voyage of discovery for me as I've been a collector of 18C English glass for some time but know very little of Murano glass of this type (though I have visited there and it is fascinating.
http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k580/Desmcleish/Murano%20Collection/100_0775.jpg
http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k580/Desmcleish/Murano%20Collection/100_0788.jpg
http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k580/Desmcleish/Murano%20Collection/100_0798.jpg
http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k580/Desmcleish/Murano%20Collection/100_0804.jpg
http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k580/Desmcleish/Murano%20Collection/100_0817.jpg
I appreciate your time being given to help a novice.
Best wishes
Des
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Hi Des
The initial set of goblets you had pictured may now indeed by Muranese / Venetian that is from Murano. There have been a lot of furnaces, smaller ones at that which may have fallen by the wayside and the goblets you showed initially may have been experimental pieces and quite a few furnaces still do this jsut to test the market and see what sells. This is why it is quite rare to find the same style of goblet / chalice in great numbers as they simply do not do this. Every order that we place to our sisiter furnaces in Venice is for items made to order and this is why the showrooms in Venice may have some items in stock, but they very rarely have large number of everything in a showroom simply because it is not viable. They may have 1 or 2 pieces of something sitting around, then either the customer purchases the showroom stock or they have it made in another colour / style gleaned from other products in the room at the time. There are over 176 showrooms in Venice with most of the furnaces operating on the mainland due to space restrictions and other considerations.
I can steadfastly assure you that when it comes to ordering Murano glass wether it be chandeliers or alike, unless a supplier has order a substantial quantity of items of the same genre such as clowns, then every other piece is made to order.
This is how we operate and is the reason for our success.
I hope this helps
Dean
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Desm, the last five pictures made the origin of the glass less clear. The first two goblets have a traditional Venetian style. The third and fourth pictures with the swirled clear glass and blue details have a Spanish type design. I have seen this type glass made in Spain, Italy, and Germany. There may be other places. The last picture with the ribbed foot has a German spirit to it, but it could have been made other places. All of the glass is lovely, but a mystery to me. Maybe someone could tap Ivo on the shoulder to see if he can provide some insight.
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Perhaps what should actually happen is to post the different glasses, each in a new thread with a descriptive title, in the main glass forum. They can always be moved backed here
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Just a comment on "à la façon de Venise."
First, just to back up what Anita said in another thread about the responsibility of ensuring that we use terms correctly here as any little error tends to spread quickly on the Internet.
Dean may well be right in that the artists in Murano are carrying on a style of glass made in earlier centuries, but that is not how the term is used in practice. Newman's "An Illustrated DIctionary of Glass" defines the term. "In the style of Venice, as applied to high-quality glassware made throughout Europe, often by emigrant Venetian glass-workers..." In other words, it applies to glass made anywhere but Venice. To use the term today to apply to glass made in Venice is inappropriate and leads to misunderstandings.
David
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Hiya. Had a look at these and agree that most of these were made in Murano. But maybe not all. The blue trim and the cable decoration for me point to Gordiola who was a large producer of Venetian style glass,for which they used workers from Murano. Other makers could include Lagranja de San Ildefonso and Saint Louis, Sevres, Bonhomme in Liege-. Even some British glassworks dabbled in Venetian style glass - and I will not use the term Facon-de-Venise as to me that refers to venetian style items from the 18th century and earlier. These glasses are clearly from a more practical period, say 1880 through 1940. And I would not let the presence or absence of little glass flowers lead me to any conclusion. Every technique, every decoration has been used in Murano.
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Hi:
I had a look through "The Colours of Murano in the XIX Century," which has quite a few pictures of goblets, many of which are Salviati. I didn't see any of yours there, but, just to reinforce what Anita and Ivo wrote, there were quite a few with flowers on them.
David
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@ everyone. Thanks for the helpful comments. The info I have is that these were gifts, possibly even samples, from an employee at a Murano furnace to a relative in England in the early part of the 20C. Its hard to say if this info is true or not but they are fabulously ornate, as one would perhaps expect, and very fine - so I worry about them getting broken. Your comments have helped confirm perhaps most of my understanding.
Sadly I have no space in my little cottage to show these lovely things, so they are triple wrapped in bubble wrap and boxed up in the loft. This is a shame so I think I will have to sell them. Not sure of the best way to do this but the ubiquitous Ebay probably beckons. However if any have other advice on alternatives then I'd be grateful.
Cheers
Des
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hi Des,
I have 1 goblet which I think is the same as your, but with a blue bunch of grapes and leaf as the stem,
I also have a much larger example with a clear bunch of grapes on.
The larger one doesn't have quality of the other and look more like a pooly executed copy.
I haven't time to do any photos today, i'm away for a couple of days, but i'l try and post them on your post if it helps.
I believe the smaller 1 I have is Venetian and the larger 1 I hope isn't.
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hello! I am a glassblower and lampworker that specializes in replicating historical glasses particularly venetian stemware from 1800s-1900s.
I cannot date these or tell you were they are from but I can tell you that these were not made at the furnace(except for the last picture which is possibly furnace worked) but were instead lampworked.
my proof is in the definition of the rigadin, or optic molding and in the proportions of avolios and knops. also the shape of the flower petals is more similar to that of a lampworker than traditional furnace work (petals look too thin and even colored, no chill marks).
the first three pictures assure me the piece is lampworked by the lack of a top disc on the upper avolio aswell as the definition of the optics
the first picture on your second post the blue flair that was made by pinching with tweezers goes down all the way to the white spiral which indicates additional heating associated with lampworking. also the avolio on the cup doesnt have a top disc which is also associated with lampworking.
the optics and handle on the third picture of your second post immediatly assures me this piece is lampworked. if you look closely you should find the ridges on this piece are more pronounced on the inside of the vessel than on the outside. had this been made at the furnace the ridges would be on the outside due to the use of an optic mold, however the ridges on the inside show that scallopped tubing was used. also the stub connecting the lower portion of the handle would never had been done at the furnace and was done as the lampworker couldnt properly control his heat base to add the handle.
the fourth of the second is lampworked because there are no tweezer marks on the handles and the stem is too thin and too wide, this would rarely happen in furnace glass.
the fifth of the second may be furnace worked due to the shape of the avolios, however the downturn the lip of the foot takes makes me sceptical. a furnace worker would have difficulty in doing this and one with the skill to do so would have much cleaner optics.
this doesnt mean they are not blown glass or are not italian just that these were not made at a furnace.
for more clarity, look up cesare toffolo on youtube to see these techniques demonstrated. and to see a true muranese furnace worker look up davide fuin, or lino tagliapietra.
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Thanks for that fascinating information. It will take me while to assimilate and use it, buy what a clear explanation of some of the differences between lamp worked an furnace worked glass
David
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Welcome to the board, Ramanglass544 - and for your clear description of lampwork vs. Furnace glass. It is great to have someone on board who knows his onions - technically speaking. :thup:
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Hi guys,
ramanglass544 is right.
They are made here, but not with our Murano glass and not with the traditional technique.
They are lampworked goblets in borosilicate glass, very different from the classic murano soft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borosilicate_glass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borosilicate_glass)
Due to a very low coefficient of thermal expansion this glass is much easier to be shaped and worked than the "soft" murano glass (very high coefficient).
For these features it is possible to produce also pretty complex and bigger items directly on a flame and not in the traditional furnace.
Cesare Toffolo is top master glassmaker in Murano. Other good craftmen are Cortella, Ballarin, De Mio.
www.artofvenice.com (http://www.artofvenice.com)