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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on February 28, 2012, 03:34:52 PM

Title: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 28, 2012, 03:34:52 PM
I've been trying to research something and I'm a little confused with what I am seeing and with some info in various threads.
I do realise that lots of makers made trailed glass in a similar vein, i.e. Webb, Harrach, Stuart, Walsh and Richardson...or those are the ones I've come across so far.
I've found a vase here
http://www.millersantiquesguide.com/items/127380/a-late-19th-century-stuart-sons-/
that states this is Stuart late 19th century.
However I think I've found an advert with this vase in for 1907 - no maker stated though(I'm still waiting to check final details).  I suppose this piece could have been designed and made for that length of time or longer and would this explain the dating difference?
I also think I've found a very similar piece in the same colourway identified as being made by Walsh.  Would the two makers both be using what looks like this amethyst colour as trails?  I recognise that many of these vases have similarities but these have so many that I am just wondering if they have come from the same maker, and ie. that the vase I've linked to is not a Stuart piece.
I've also found a reference that Stuart didn't make a wavy rimmed mushroom posy until the 1930's.  How wide would the rim need to be for a piece to be classified as a mushroom posy? It's just that I have a picture of what I thought were mushroom posies one with a waved rim and one with a straight rim, trailed as in the linked piece with peacock trails, and the advert is 1907.  So my thinking is that if Stuart did not make this until 1930's then the pieces in the advert which are mushroom posies won't be Stuart.  If you see what I mean?
Any thoughts much appreciated.
thanks
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 28, 2012, 09:29:27 PM
Adding Stevens and Williams to the above list of peacock eye and trail makers - pattern numbers 30633, 30634, 30635 -

And some observations:
1) that one of the mushroom posy vases in my ad,  the one I mentioned with the flat rim, looks remarkably similar to a 'Harrach' posy vase, Truitts page 67.
2) that a vase in Truitts page 67 (no 4)  whilst not being identical, looks to me as if it is exactly the same maker as a vase in Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass page 37 plate 68, tall footed vase at the back.  I know it's difficult to tell from pictures, but either it's the same maker or someone copied someone on that vase.
edited to add: On the Style and Design webpage the tall one shown in Truitts is here listed as Stuart and with a rider on the items featured, stating there are errors in the books -
link here scroll down and there are a group of vases on the left - http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/guidepages/estoz1.html
3) The picture in CH 20th Century British Glass shows 6 vases all of which bar one, appear to have a dot in the centre of the eye.  The one on the left does not... and the eye and trails and especially the way the bottom trails have been applied look very similar to the vase on the very left of the Harrach group in Truitt's page 67 (vase 1)
4) There are apparently differences in colour between the Harrach plate and the 20th Century BG plate with the Harrach version looking dark bottle green and the Stuart versions looking paler and more olivey - do we know if this is a print production issue or were they really different greens?

Sorry , I'm at home feeling ill and sorry for myself so I've got time to pontificate  ;D
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on March 02, 2012, 02:51:35 PM
Question -
In Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass page 37, there is a group of trailed glass vases.
In the caption it states
'Group of vases with applied peacock trails, c 1900-1910, from the large collection of glass saved after the closure of Stuart Crystal.  Stuart and Sons were a major producer of this style and the Stuart collection contains many examples but collectors should be aware that the  other Stourbridge glass factories including Thomas Webb and Stevens and Williams, also produced their own variations which are difficult to distinguish from the Stuart ranges.'...

Would I be right in reading  that the group pictured on that page is not definitively id'd as all Stuart pieces, but just that the group of pieces came from the Stuart collection?
I would have thought that if they were definitely id'd as Stuart the caption would have stated 'Stuart vases...' or ' vases made by Stuart' in some way.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on March 02, 2012, 02:59:47 PM
There is one vase in the group mentioned in my post above that appears in a Harrods Catalogue dating I believe late 1907 for the 1908 year (based on the fact that on page 13 of the catalogue Harrods gave their list of dates for their auctions for 1908)
It is the flared vase at the front 2nd left on the picture on page 37, with the amethyst eyes.
This appears in the Harrods catalogue page with apparently a green central 'eye' rather than the amethyst I think as it is  under the heading
'THE 'NEW GREEN JEWEL' DECORATION
'Best English Manufacture.  New and unique shapes in bowls and vases.'

see picture below

Vases with this decoration appear on a different page and with a different range name to two other groups of vases with trailed decoration in the catalogue.  These appear under separate range names and appear to be different ranges.

The range name headings are:

'THE ORIGINAL ENGLISH "PEACOCK" DECORATION'.  

Under 'The original English 'Peacock' Decoration' there appears to be the tall vase at the back of the picture on page 37 of 20th Century British Glass (CH) and also a vase which in nearly all respects is the same as the vase pictured on the far right of page 37 (difference being the vase in the catalogue picture has a flared base rather than curving inwards)

and

'THE "ENGLISH JEWEL" DECORATION'.

Under this heading there is a vase with the same code number as a piece under 'The Original English 'Peacock' Decoration' - slightly different rim and different design to the trails but basically the same vase.

So my thoughts are, are all those vases pictured on page 37 of 20th Century British Glass from the same supplier and are they all Stuart?
and I wonder if all the vases Harrods picture under their three different range headings, are Stuart supplied pieces?  If so then perhaps the Stuart range names, instead of Cairngorm that I am familiar with, would be
 'NEW GREEN JEWEL'
 "ENGLISH JEWEL"
 "PEACOCK"

It also 'appears' from the way they have phrased the headings and range names and descriptors, that in the 1907 for 1908 catalogue the 'NEW GREEN JEWEL' is a new range, but the other two perhaps appeared in previous catalogue years.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on March 03, 2012, 08:20:16 AM
Many of the pictures in this linked thread have disappeared or are not linkable any more http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,1901.msg12914.html#msg12914
Is there another link where I can view them?  And did the Webb vases with applied trails ever get uploaded anywhere please?

Glen, you mentioned a Harrods advert for 1909 with English Peacock designs.  Was this picturing vases such as the handblown  tornado vases or was it for the type of vases pictured in CH 20th Century British Glass page 37 please?

thanks in advance for any help :)
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: johnphilip on March 03, 2012, 09:11:33 AM
A lot of new information has been written since 2009 i believe the Glass Association did an artcle on these in one of their  journals and copies are still available from them , i also think our Nigel has been doing some reading on the sublect .
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on March 03, 2012, 09:24:38 AM
~thanks JP,  I am trying to get a copy of that at the mo.  Unfortunately there isn't anything listed here on the GMB about these vases though and all the pics have disappeared.

m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Paul S. on March 03, 2012, 10:01:56 AM
I had written a little before jp commented - and hope that Nigel will be able to help.........but will let some of what I had written stand, since it makes reference to a very similar example that possibly you hadn't seen.

Although I haven't registered to see the remainder of the details, seems a great shame - in view of the fact this is unmarked - that they haven't quoted the source of provenance/attribution for this piece  -  particularly frustrating in view of Hajdamach's comments to the picture on page 37 of his 20th Century British Glass that "these were made by other Stourbridge glass factories"

Cairngorm/smokey quartz/amethyst were popular semi-precious stones in the latter part of the C20 - although apart from the one piece of amethyst on page 37 in Hajdamach, must admit I've seen only green trailing/eyes on the typical A. Stainer/Stuart nouveau pieces  -  see Miller's C20 Glass page 234, which shows an almost identical piece but with green instead of amethyst  -  and is stated to date from 1909.    It's always possible that with the known Stuart provenance of the green/metal example in Miller's/McConnell  -  then an assumption has been made for the almost identical amethyst piece in this new offering from Miller's.       Just a thought.

The only way to resolve this - on the assumption that no one here provides the answer - is to contact Miller's and ask politely for the source of their provenance/attribution. :)

     
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on March 03, 2012, 11:15:33 AM
Paul, yes I have Miller's as well and saw that one  :)  I assumed they must have seen the Stuart Pattern books etc to positively id it?
Gulliver's has one registered Stuart design in it which has a peacock eye trail. RD no486685 on page269.  I think this is a piece from the range that Harrods call 'English Jewel' in their end 1907 for 1908 catalogue  (a range that I think may have also been in the catalogue the previous year (i.e end 1906 for 1907 catalogue).  In the catalogue the foot and knop are incredibly similar but the bowl is different.  It is  more trumpet shaped but with a very similar rim and with trails that swirl a little round the body rather than fall straight down.  It could be that this is a newer variation on rd no 486685 possibly or just a range extension.
My feelings are that this range 'English Jewel', is a Stuart range based on this, but because it is not an identical piece to the design in Gullivers it's difficult I suppose.

Edited to add - something occurred to me from what you wrote - maybe Cairngorm was one of the names Stuart gave to their  colours or colours of their trails?  see wikipedia "Cairngorm is a variety of smoky quartz crystal found in the Cairngorm Mountains of Scotland. It usually has a smokey yellow-brown colour, though some specimens are a grey-brown. (my underlining)
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Paul S. on March 03, 2012, 05:38:22 PM
hello m  -  I won't comment further since I don't have personal experience of this 'nouveau' style of pre 1920 Stuart glass  -  hopefully, Nigel will be able to add some positive comments, which will help you :)

I believe that the Scots sometimes used the 'cairngorm' form of quartz with which to decorate their sporrans - it was also used also quite commonly in brooches  -  and apparently it's possible to create smoky quartz by irradiating the clear form. 
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: chopin-liszt on March 05, 2012, 11:13:21 AM
I don't know about sporrans, they tend to have dangly toggles and furry things, but they're certainly used to decorate the hilts of Skean Dhus, and the big brooches used to pin sashes at the shoulder.
Stating the obvious, they're named after the mountain range where they're found.
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Paul S. on March 05, 2012, 02:42:16 PM
A Skean Dhu being the small sheathed dagger kept hidden in the mens long socks - although maybe not now pc to carry such an item.
quote.........."Stating the obvious, they're named after the mountain range where they're found"...............that's not the daggers, socks, sporrans, dangly toggles or even furry things............but the the semi-precious form of smokey quartz. ;) ;)               and apologies to m for :hj:
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: chopin-liszt on March 05, 2012, 04:02:13 PM
 :pb:
I knew what I meant.  :smg:
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on March 20, 2012, 08:22:42 AM
Just bumping this trying to and clarify some more information.
In the 1907 Harrods catalogue pages there are more vases shown than those on page 53 of the Glass Association Journal 1997 (catalogue Harrods 1909 pages).  But in both there is a wavy rimmed mushroom posy that comes under what Harrods call 'The English Jewel' decoration.  In a previous thread I read that Stuart may not have made a wavy rimmed mushroom posy until the 30's.  The range is a different 'decor' to my vase shown below which I believe is what Harrods called "the original English 'Peacock' decoration", but I did think this range "The 'English Jewel' decoration" was also a Stuart range.  Can anyone confirm whether it is or isn't please?
My vase is 7" tall and the 'Peacock' eyes are green with dark jade green centres.
Thanks
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: johnphilip on March 20, 2012, 10:13:19 AM
Come on Nigel i hope your not sulking ?  ??? soon be time for The Brum Glass fair that will cheer you up .  ;)
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on March 20, 2012, 10:48:06 AM
for the record, I'm not trying to research Stuart or even trailed vases in general  :)
But I am trying to identify the maker of three vases I have, one with applied trails the others not, but all by the same maker and nothing like the clear with applied trails vases being discussed on here.  However, I am  hoping by a process of elimination, to get closer to who might have made my vases.
Any help would be very much appreciated  :)
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on April 18, 2012, 10:12:54 AM
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/199.html?L=1&kategorie=67&artikel=16646&cHash=3f91725e2f

another contender for Peacock trail vases? or an incorrect identification?

Kristallglasfabrik Wilhelm Staigerwald Regenhütte

m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on May 20, 2012, 08:48:45 PM

I think this looks like a Stuart shape with the cup and the shallow frilled rim.

ebay item no 370612102470

Do we know they did these amethyst pad-like 'peacock eye' and trails?  I was told they only did green but I think they did peacock eye applications in amber with a green eye as well.  And now this amethyst which although not having a 'centre' to the eye, is so similar to Stuart designs I can't believe it isn't.  However the 'pad' is also similar to a signed STevens and Williams vase I've seen but the body of the vase (shape, 'cup' and rim) look like Stuart to me.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on July 30, 2012, 05:05:22 PM
Harrach peacock eye vase here for future reference
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,48592.msg274652.html#msg274652 along with another piece posted directly afterwards
as well as other Stuart pieces further up the thread and at the start of the topic
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: nigel benson on July 31, 2012, 12:12:03 AM
I saw this thread when it first started and frankly decided not to make any comment when the first four posts were all made by the original questioner. This left me realing with the number of questions asked and the complexity that had been created. The thread has gone on and only seemed to get worse :o

A question from me. Why on earth are you using a Harrods retail catalogue in oder to help work out the problem? The name they use is their own creation referring to items that they have bought on a wholesale basis from what could even be more than one English maker. This means that these items would have no references on them that would identify the maker. The same happened at other companies, another being the London shop Liberty, who retailed for instance Thomas Webb items as 'English Glass'. Therefore it is useless as a primary source of identification and is likely to just confuse you - unless of course you have actually identified which company supplied those items?

Another query, why can't two or more manufacturers use the same (similar) colour in producing similar items, in this case what you are referring to as 'trailed' pieces? It happens throughout glass making history. Certainly manufacturers occasionally made ranges for tens of years, not just a couple of years after their design. If soething was commercially successful they would continue to produce it, if not it would likely just dissappear from the catalogue pages.

I'm astonished that you have given Miller's guides so much credance assuming that it is they who actually research the photographs that they use. In my experience through Millers direct use of my items, (and via other dealers) I can tell you that they rely upon the dealer, or the auctioneer who supplies the image to supply the information.

Millers come to the dealer (or collector) and take the photographs, which they then own and have copyright to. The owner of the item supplies a brief description, its designer, and/or manufacturer and of course the value. The former can be inaccurate and the latter can be manipulated according to any agenda that might be in the head of the items owner. Therefore, whilst a useful yearly publication, there can be built in problems. This also can occur on the website, which on the odd occasion I have had cause to draw attention to an inaccuracy.

The 'mushroom' posy simply refers to a shape and is not dependant on size.

To be honest, although you are likely to begin to get a handle on this subject through looking at things in publications and on the Internet, the only way that you can really get the differences sorted out is to go digging in the archives of the relavant companies. Not such a helpful comment I know, but probably realistic I'm afraid ;) :)

I find buying and owning identifiable pieces is the best thing to do. Live with them and the differences and similarities begin to emerge. Of course this can be expensive, but that is the nature of learning IMHO. Largely speaking, research ain't cheap.

Cheers, Nigel
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on July 31, 2012, 11:33:44 AM
Hi Nigel
Thanks for responding.  I'm not sure what you meant by this comment 'I saw this thread when it first started and frankly decided not to make any comment when the first four posts were all made by the original questioner. This left me realing with the number of questions asked and the complexity that had been created. The thread has gone on and only seemed to get worse '.
 :-\ I thought this was a Glass discussion board, therefore I assumed it would be okay to put my questions on.  And I don't believe what I wrote was complex.  I was simply asking some questions and hoping someone would comment in return on whether or not I was making the right connections, or not.

I'm using a Harrods retail catalogue to help work out my question/problem, because they are catalogue pages I own with peacock eye or applied trailed vases on them (of which I currently own about 12 related vases).  And I don't own or have access to the Stuart pattern books.   I am fully aware that whilst the catalogue pages 'might' help, they wont solve the problem because as I've written elsewhere, you can probably only rely on pattern books to be sure of where an item originated from ... and even that is in doubt I guess with Mike's comments on other threads that Harrach were probably making glass for other manufacturers.
 
The pages from the catalogue with  the trailed vases variously state 'Handmade English Glass', 'Perfect combination.English Manufacture', 'Best English Manufacture', 'In Finest English Crystal', 'English flower tubes in best cut crystal', 'English Flower tubes in flint or green' 'The "English Jewel"' - I was therefore assuming until proved otherwise that they were English made pieces.
In addition to which, some of the catalogue pages I own also happen to have been published in the Journal of the Glass Association vol 5 1997 (which I also have a copy of) in an article by Lesley Jackson with a comment by her underneath of '...probably made in Stourbridge or Birmingham'. That article and those vases  in the reproduced catalogue pages in that article, have also been cited as reference in a published Glass book.  That reference is one I am querying in connection with the vase I am trying to identify, which I do not wish to put on the board.  And that was why I was trying to work out who made the vases in the Lesley Jackson article reproduced Harrods catalogue pages.

Thank you for your detailed explanation of how the Miller's guides are published and from where the information derives.
I guess your comments mean it is right to question most identification unless it is a  supported by a pattern book reference. I was merely putting the information on here as it is published information.  I was using it to demonstrate that there seems to be conflict on who made particular pieces. 
I fully understand that many manufacturers could have made pieces with similarities of design and colour.  Which leads me to question even more the information that is in books and on the web unless it has a pattern number attached to it as a reference.  I own a few glass books now, only about 26 admittedly but many of them cost me a lot of money (and sold glass) to buy.  I find there are discrepancies in them (raised here on the board) and it then makes me query other things, but they are good to have.  They would be better if they a) always contained a base shot of each piece and b) were more like Gulliver's Victorian Glass where a pattern number is stated and id is only given if there is a pattern number to support the pieces.

Thanks for confirming the definition of a 'mushroom posy'

Unfortunately I am not in a position to go 'digging round archives' at the drop of a hat.  My personal circumstances do not allow that to happen.  Frankly the arrangements necessary to get to the Birmingham Glass Fair once a year are enormous.  Earlier this year I was able to make arrangement to visit Broadfield House.  This entailed over a 5 hour journey and necessitated organising detailed after school arrangements for my youngest son who is disabled.  I had two and a half hours there and we managed to squeeze in a flying trip and a race around the Cone as well as take up a piece of glass for discussion with BH.  (The piece I am trying to identify myself hence starting this thread).  I had managed to find pattern number references that I wanted checked out and BH were very helpful in checking a particular pattern book for me whilst I looked around, but there was no way I would have had the time to go through all the references myself.

On your last comment I agree.  Research is not cheap and you are probably quite right that having a vast collection of known glass allows comparisons and enables the differences and similarities to emerge.  However I am not in a position to be able to afford to do that.  I have to sell some of my glass in order to be able to afford to buy more to research or add to my collection.  I don't often buy a 'known' piece unless it adds to my Carlo Moretti pencil neck collection ... Or is so rare or  beautiful (and affordable of course) that I have to have it  :) :) 

For the first few years of collecting I used to buy all sorts of glass (I also spent decades collecting pottery and china as my aunt was a dealer so I grew up with that) just so I could hold it,weigh it,see the construction and research it to find out what it is.  Now my criteria for buying glass is only  (mostly) glass I absolutely  love and can live with, so that after I've researched it to find out what it is, if I can't sell it, it stays in my collection and doesn't end up in a box adding to the mounds of glass and ceramics/studio pottery that I am trying to get rid of having hoarded since my teens.

m



Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: nigel benson on July 31, 2012, 01:23:22 PM
Dear m,

You are, of course quite right that the GMB exists to answers questions, however for me, when I'm confronted with so many within a group of entries, giving little time for replies in between, I just glaze over. All the questions created the necessity for a very long time consuming reply - hence my use of the word 'complex'. You know what your queries are all about, we on the other hand, are confronted with an array of them to pick out the ones we wish to, or can, answer. Sadly, without a photo of the one that you don't wish to put on the board - your perogative  :) - it also becomes a bit of difficult conversation.

Your comments about not being able to go and do research "...at the drop of a hat...", frankly apply to all of us, for one reason or another. My major committment is to try and earn a living, particularly in these very difficult financial times! Time, distance and the necessary accompanying costs apply to all of us. For instance, it's three and a  half hours (on a quick run) to go to BHGM for me, so a days travel including the return, and the better part of a tank of petrol.

As for being able to buy things that are known, it is not always a matter of large amounts of money, but knowledge that has been built up through the confidence created by buying, selling, discussing (as here on the GMB), having your own library/borrowing from the local library, and visiting museums that have glass collections (not only BHGM). The other way is to handle items at auction, something that cannot be done at museums. In fact confidence is very often the key come to think of it ;) :)

There are always discrepancies between books and publications, the trick, if there is one, is to decide which are the consistantly reliable ones. Yes, books are expensive, but IMHO necessary for anyone with a deep interest in any subject.

Don't think that I'm assuming we can all buy glass and books to our heart's desire, in fact I always struggle to justify keeping an item or buy yet another book or sometimes even an archive, but without them there is no 'edge' for either the dealer or the collector. Books always pay for themselves. The first time you buy something (and save money) as a result of a book you've bought you are being paid back for the outlay.

The keeping of glass to learn from is something that a number of people do in order to understand a subject, including major collectors like Graham Cooley. It need not be vast numbers. It allows you to get a greater understanding of a subject, something that I learnt many years ago when there were no books on Powell/Whitefriars and the exhibitions weren't even a glint in the eye, I began buying the Arts & Crafts drinking glasses. Keeping and comparing the odd one to create a small collection allowed me to gain knowledge that few others had available at the time.

Personally, I think I'm driven by gaining the knowledge about something I know little about, finding the item is a buzz, but finding the information is just as much a buzz - hmmm, might be why I've never made a fortune out of the antiques business ??? ;)

Kind wishes, Nigel

 
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on July 31, 2012, 04:20:39 PM
That sounds like perfect advice to me  :)
Thanks Nigel.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: nigel benson on August 11, 2012, 12:04:20 AM
Hello m,

I've had time to check my copy of Mervyn Guliver's Victorian Decorative Glass, Volume 4, Part three which covers the pattern books of Philip Pargeter and Stuart & Sons 1850 - 1914 .

I have compared the drawings with the two Harrods pages shown in the article by Lesley Jackson, in the Glass Association Journal Vol 5, called 'Powell Lookalikes'.

The top plate (18), on page 53, are mainly Stuart. The only reason that the two in the middle row (left and middle) cannot be confirmed is that they are not in Mervyn's line drawings. All of the other items have the same serial numbers as in the Stuart reference, except there is the addition of a 'CH' in front of the number in the Harrods catalogue page. The two unidentified pieces have similar serial numbers suggesting that they are also Stuart, but not confirmed.

The second plate (19) has the same pattern pieces as Stuart's Drop Head Dab Trail pieces, and similar serial numbers, but most are not shown on the two pages of drawings in Gulliver that I have. Three, however are, the two small ones in the top row and another small, one on the right in the middle row - same serial numbers, with the addition of 'CH' on the Harrods page. Again, it is possible that they are all indeed Stuart, particularly as the serial numbers are in the same number range as Stuarts with the same number of digits, but the others aren't shown.
 
Given that Mervyn splits the topics up within the volumes, the others could be illustrated elsewhere in another part of his work - or, he might not have got everything??

Anyway, I'm sure that will be of some assistance to you.

Nigel

PS. In order to make my copy pay for itself, that's £65.00 please!!!!!!!! ;)  Oh well, it was worth a try ???
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on August 11, 2012, 12:38:03 AM
 :-* You are a very very generous person - thank you so much!!
I have 4 other pages of trailed vases from the Harrods catalogue 1907.  They are different pages to those shown in JoftheGA vol5 1997 which are 1909 pages.
I will email you.
 I do not wish to overturn my apology for questioning Truitts 1880-1940 page 67 where vases 1,2,3,4 are identified as Harrach. I do also appreciate as you have said, that there is no reason why makers couldn't copy each others work and thereby produce items that are the same or very similar to each others. 

However , I feel the information you have so generously shared means I still have a query over vase 1 and vase 2 on that Truitt's page. 

Vase 2
Vase 2 shown In Truitt's as above,  is a flat rim mushroom posy  with 5 'peacock eye' prunt and trails that go under the bowl to what appears to be the pontil mark.  Unfortunately only the height is given (2.5") not the width which doesn't help with comparisons. 
There is one of these in drawing form on my Harrods Catalogue pages which 'appears' to be the same design - this one has 7 'peacock eye' prunts and trails - not possible to see whether they go under the bowl or if there is  a pontil mark.  And unfortunately these are measured in width not height with widths being given as 8",10" and 12".  Reference no CH14805
This appears to fit in with the Stuart serial numbers

Vase 1
Vase 1 shown in Truitt's as above, is a small posy vase with a bulbous base and a tall ish flared out rim.  It 'appears' very similar to the vase on plate 19 page 53 top row 4th from left which you have now identified as being in Gulliver's Stuart drawings - ref in the catalogue pages as CH18081(or 18083 difficult to read even with magnifier)

thank you once again for taking the time to look this information up for me.  It is very much appreciated :)
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: nigel benson on August 11, 2012, 10:59:10 AM
Currently, I'm afraid your email will bounce back! I'm working on the problem and I'll let you know by PM'ing.

In the meantime, I've considered the problem you've put in front of us all. Perhaps the best way to understand the whole peacock trailed subject is not to try and deal with all the manufacturers at once? Maybe get one manufacturer, say Stuart, sorted out so that you can then identify that subject and go on to working on the others? That is to say, get Stuart's characteristic features sorted out, so that there are known, and synonymous things that will generally indicate Stuart. That way other factories will become more evident.

Going from the known to the unknown is, in my experience, much easier.

Nigel

Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on August 11, 2012, 11:16:47 AM
thank you Nigel.  I agree.
I am as  certain as I can be at the moment, that the vase I referred to that I'm investigating is not Stuart, and that the reference of it in that glass book and other articles, to those catalogue pages in The Glass Association Journal is incorrect. 
I believe, but cannot prove, that most if not all of those vases on the catalogue pages, are Stuart.
I believe, on what I have at the moment, that my particular vase  is a different manufacturer.
I will let you know if I find anything further  :)

I did send you a pm via the GMB but if it didn't get through to you do let me know.
As ever, I'm grateful and appreciate your advice and encylcopaedic knowledge and also the time you have taken to do this for me.
Many thanks
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Mike M on August 11, 2012, 12:34:55 PM
Hi

I thought you might like to see this.  Whilst taking a picture of some glasses at Passau (on the shelf below) I realised I got a good shot of the underside of a shelf of peacock trail bohemian vases. Showing mostly polished pontil marks.

Unfortunately I was not really taking them so I don't have full information.  From their positioning I think Passau is saying they are definitely Bohemian, possibly Harrach but not definitely.

I do have permission to use this photograph.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on August 11, 2012, 12:42:12 PM
Thanks so much Mike.  Very interesting.  Definitely one in there that I would say is so similar to a Stuart vase I have with pattern no. It's quite difficult to tell on the others exactly what the peacock eye is like (apart from the one at the front). I love that amber and green with the star cut base....gorgeous. 
I shall have a compare later.  And thank you very much for your generosity in sharing your photos.  I really appreciate it  :)
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on August 11, 2012, 01:13:52 PM
I haven't time to go through these in minute detail at the moment, but on a cursory glance I believe there are such similarities between these and the Stuart vases (presumed from serial numbers and also the ones Nigel confirmed from the Stuart pattern books) that further investigation is required.  Along with contacting Harrach and The Passau Museum.  Mike, I don't know if I've read into what you said correctly, but were you intimating because of the cabinets they were in, that they weren't identified with a specific maker?   

Looking at your picture I see 7 vases with vase 1 from left and vase 7 from left only half in shot and which I cannot see properly.
There are distinct similarities between vases (from left) 2, 4 and 6 with what NIgel has confirmed as  Stuart vases and others which I believe are Stuart vases. 
In addition re: vase 5 (from left) the tall vase at the back with the bulbous body:
- this vase or one that looks to be the same, is shown in Truitts identified as Harrach. 
- There is a vase with the same bulbous body foot and merese as well as the trails but it has a different top (flared out with wavy rim and 5 peacock eye prunts) in my Harrods 1907 Catalogue page serial number CH 16995 (this is in Gullivers vol 4 as Nigel said above, as Stuart). 
-The top design of that vase in your photo vase 5, looks to be the same as the top on another vase  identified as Stuart by Nigel above, with serial number CH15637 (Harrods serial no) 15637 (Stuart serial number)

So, there are many similarities - which is why I have been confused by who did what I guess.
 m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Mike M on August 11, 2012, 01:56:02 PM
Hi

sorry to be a little useless on this as I wasn't really photographing them.

What I was photographing was the rest of the cabinet contents -which, checking back more carefully now, contained Theresenthal and Steigerwald glasses.  This suggests actually my earlier comment was wrong.  Passau seems to think they are German not Bohemian. (a bit of a weakness for Passau in my belief)

Now I know Steigerwald had their own version of sort of peacock trail, but that is very different and one cabinet further on.  All I can be sure of is where they were, they are definitely not being classified as British!

cheers

Mike

Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on August 11, 2012, 04:02:05 PM
Thank you Mike - I linked to this one earlier which is apparently Steigerwald or Staigerwald as they have called it.  I don't have one the same as this in my pages. Is this the same as what you saw as Steigerwald version peacock trail please?

http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/199.html?L=1&kategorie=67&artikel=16646&cHash=3f91725e2f

From that link I also went onto another link which showed this one (see below) as a Steigerwald vase, reference the Passau Museum.  This one is gorgeous!  looks as though it could be uranium glass - described as opalescent with vertical enlongated peacock eye and trails. It's a curious height 22.7cm which is just about 9". There is something similar to this one in the Harrods  catalogue pages  but it has a slightly flared out base and is on the page described as serial number CH4 confirmed by Nigel as matching the Stuart serial numbers.  The one in the  Harrods cat pages is described as green on flint, English Manufacture 'The original English 'peacock' decoration'.
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/199.html?L=1&kategorie=67&artikel=16645&L=1&cHash=d021832426
Do you recognise either of these please as either being in the cabinet with the Stuart lookalikes or in as Steigerwald peacock version?

On a Japanese blog site there is a flat rimmed mushroom posy vase 6cm h by 15cm wide with 5 dark blue! peacock eye trails described as Steigerwald.  Thanks again for helping with this.  I do appreciate it  :) 
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Mike M on August 11, 2012, 04:29:27 PM
Hi here is:

A shelf of Steigerwald peacock trail pieces  -well sort of peacock trail from Passau -and yes I have permission to display.

I can't really be sure if the other ones are right or wrong -they could be either.
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on August 11, 2012, 05:16:11 PM
Thank you  :)  The ones I linked to don't look anything like those though.  The opalescent one has Passau as it's reference. 
I would say those Steigerwald ones you linked to are more 'dab' and 'trail' rather than peacock eye.  They have no surround to the eye.  However I can see the cut star with long and short cuts on one of those - something I noticed on the amber with green peacock eye bowl on the 'unattributed ' peacock cabinet photo.
well, the thot plickens
thank you again for such great pics and for all your input.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on August 11, 2012, 09:17:53 PM
I'm just adding to this thread for my reference as  I find things so please bear with me  :)
One of the vases I queried above being auctioned on Fischer as Steigerwald is what appears to be an opalescent vase with vertical ish peacock eyes, a flat everted rim and no foot.
This one here
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/199.html?L=1&kategorie=67&artikel=16645&L=1&cHash=d021832426
I referred,in my post above, to one being similar but not quite the same, in the Harrods cat pages.
There is another, in Charles Hajdamach's 20th century British Glass page 37 plate68, that is more similar in shape (looks the same) and has the three eyes at the top and the middle but is not opalescent and has the dark jade green eye with the paler green surround and trail.  This is the group with the comment underneath that states they came from the large collection of glass saved after the closure of the Stuart Factory.  Just to reiterate, it does not state that the vases in that plate were definitively Stuart though.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Mike M on August 15, 2012, 08:10:50 PM
Hi

Hope this link works OK thought you might like to see this

Cheers

M

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/65618-harrach-peacock-variant-rose-bowl?in=442 (http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/65618-harrach-peacock-variant-rose-bowl?in=442)
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on August 16, 2012, 01:29:12 PM
Thanks Mike  :)  I think that one is quite probably Stevens and Williams unmarked, as it looks remarkably similar to this one http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/8698829  which is marked S&W on the base.  Also the description of that one on Collectors Weekly is possibly incorrect in that the pontil mark should be described as 'polished' I believe, rather than 'ground' which implies part finished and not polished I would think?
Happy to be corrected - just my thoughts though.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: keith on August 18, 2012, 02:48:48 PM
Looks like an Italian version maybe
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280940360533;jsessionid=8308CF12D81AB67EAE13B25A173342A6?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D280940360533%26_rdc%3D1
Hope I've done this right ::)
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on August 18, 2012, 05:57:30 PM
you have  :) but no peacock eyes on the bowl, 'just' a trailed bowl  ;D - pretty though, I love that green.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: selina on August 25, 2012, 01:05:38 PM
I thought I might add my two into the mix, just for comparison. I have to say Im totally confused, but you can see great differences between these two. I've shown the bases of both also. Its either going to help or cause more confusion  :-\

Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on August 27, 2012, 12:26:26 PM
Beautiful pieces :) thanks for adding them to the thread.
I've not time to look at past references at the moment but will do later to see if they can be id'd possibly.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: keith on September 05, 2012, 01:55:17 PM
Thought I'd add these pictures from The Red House Cone,with their permission,some of which are in 20th Century B.Glass,page 37  ;D ;D
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on September 05, 2012, 02:04:40 PM
 :-* thank you.  I didn't think to take pictures when I was there - they are absolutely beautiful aren't they - especially I recall one that was huge and a gorgeous shape with the two colour eyes...amazing.

m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on September 05, 2012, 02:13:30 PM
- The vase in the centre top pic is very similar to pattern no 18001 but 18001 shows as having no bottom row of dabs,however it looks to be from this series.  As an aside these are known as 'The New Emeraldene Decoration' in the Harrods catalogue page 1909.

- The amethyst eye with clear trails vase behind it in top right in the top picture is I think pattern no 17541 - although again as an aside, the Harrods catalogue 1907 shows this apparently in green with flint and calls it 'The 'New Green Jewel' Decoration' .

- The straight vase front left of the top pic with outturned rim is in CH 20th c British Glass page 27 and it was that which the one in this link http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/199.html?L=1&kategorie=67&artikel=16645&L=1&cHash=d021832426 reminded me of
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: keith on September 05, 2012, 07:56:58 PM
I'd be quite happy with any of them ;D ;D
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: bfg on September 13, 2012, 03:36:11 PM
I'm really confused now. What is the current standing on clear peacock trails?

m, do mind if I add a pic to this thread or would you rather I started another? don't want to hijack you just seems sensible to keep all these thoughts in one place

Mel
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on September 13, 2012, 04:06:05 PM
Stuart made some of their vases with clear trails and peacock eyes at aleast according to my harrods catalogues I believe.
m
ps If you do start a new topic, please could you head it ' Peacock Eye trailed vases'
that way when others are searching in the future the threads will all come up together.
many thanks

m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 15, 2014, 12:50:18 AM
Mike very kindly added a photograph from the Passau museum here on this thread but had no id for it at the time (though it seemed to be in the German section but thought not Steigerwald - see first link below- and also posted a picture of the Steigerwald shelf as well - see second link below)

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46323.msg275764.html#msg275764


http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46323.msg275794.html#msg275794

However I have found a photograph on CW that has the first linked picture side on so you can see the pieces more clearly.  On CW it says this is Steigerwald. [ * ]
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/78171-german-jugendstil-schliersee-steigerwa

If you click on the first picture on the left of the CW link it enlarges to show more detail.
They are very interesting to see the comparisons.
m

[ * ] Mod: See below for correction
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 15, 2014, 11:15:57 AM
Some corrections:

1)
On reply #47 I said
'However I have found a photograph on CW that has the first linked picture side on so you can see the pieces more clearly.  On CW it says this is Steigerwald.
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/78171-german-jugendstil-schliersee-steigerwa
'

Correction:
 The picture shown on left is said to be Schliersee on Collectors W.  not Steigerwald.  My apologies for the misprint.

2)
On reply #2 on this thread I asked:
Question -
In Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass page 37, there is a group of trailed glass vases.
In the caption it states
'Group of vases with applied peacock trails, c 1900-1910, from the large collection of glass saved after the closure of Stuart Crystal.  Stuart and Sons were a major producer of this style and the Stuart collection contains many examples but collectors should be aware that the  other Stourbridge glass factories including Thomas Webb and Stevens and Williams, also produced their own variations which are difficult to distinguish from the Stuart ranges.'...

Would I be right in reading  that the group pictured on that page is not definitively id'd as all Stuart pieces, but just that the group of pieces came from the Stuart collection?
I would have thought that if they were definitely id'd as Stuart the caption would have stated 'Stuart vases...' or ' vases made by Stuart' in some way.


Correction:
On re-reading the text now I feel a little more confident on what I'm reading.  All these vases in CH British Glass page 37 plate 68 are Stuart.  Charles Hajdamach says in his written text 'Stuart and Sons were ... but nevertheless highly prolific due to the guidance of Robert Stuart with assistance from his two leading glassmakers, Will Husselbee and Alan Stanier (plate 68).
m


Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: brucebanner on February 15, 2014, 06:27:05 PM
I saw this post yesterday so popped into the Stuart museum/cone, and did the same as Kieth, i'm wondering if you got a photo of the 3 vases at the back of the  reception desk?, i took some pictures on my phone but for the life of me i can't post them i have resized them but they will not upload, regards Chris.
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 15, 2014, 06:37:07 PM
No I haven't and would love you to add them.
Can you upload to your computer and add them from there please?
Thanks for taking the time to do this and make a journey to the museum. 
I'm aiming to go up in a few weeks time but will have a 7 hour journey for 3 hours at the museum if I'm lucky.  I wont make it to the cone I don't think, unless I don't hang around and am very organised at the museum.
Thanks again
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: brucebanner on February 15, 2014, 06:37:58 PM
Ok second try.
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 15, 2014, 06:39:03 PM
Thank you SO much! I really appreciate it  :)
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: brucebanner on February 15, 2014, 06:44:10 PM
Well the cone was in a poor shape leaking like a sieve, there is a small display cabinet with about ten Stuart bit's in behind the reception desk, most of the rest of the displays are glass from artists who work or display there. i'm going to have a look in the Webb Corbett one on Monday see what that's like, regards Chris.
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 15, 2014, 06:47:36 PM
Nobody else is making any comment.

Of course I recognise that lots of makers made these peacock eye style (whatever form the eye and trail take) vases.  But personally I think it is 'spooky' how similar the vases on the shelf in the Passau, identified in the link below as Schliersee, are to the Stuart patterns in terms of both shape and decor.
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/78171-german-jugendstil-schliersee-steigerwa

I am working my way through the 1907 Harrods catalogue pages, as well as the 1909 ones I have, and all  my books and will post what I find as I think there are so many similarities between the vases in the Passau and Stuart.

Likewise there are two other vases, one sold as Steigerwald via Dr Fischer auctions, and another in the Harrach book, that have incredible similarities to Stuart shapes and decors.  I will post on those as well once I have a moment.

Thank you again to Keith and brucebanner - much appreciated.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: brucebanner on February 15, 2014, 06:50:11 PM
You will love the museum, some of the most helpful people you would wish to meet, beautiful glass on all floors, the Georgian glass on the ground floor as you go in has to be my favourite bit.
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 15, 2014, 06:51:39 PM
oh yes :) I have been before.  But because I live so far away, it's an exhausting drive and they don't open until 12 so I only get a short time there.
I don't suppose there might be any way they might open a little earlier - I might ring and ask.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: brucebanner on February 15, 2014, 07:15:10 PM
Well they let me in on Monday when they were closed so anything is possible  :)
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Bernard C on February 22, 2014, 09:38:26 AM
1. Non-Stuart glass in the Stuart collection.

At least two pieces, the magnificent and much repaired Walsh "Opaline Brocade" epergne, and the Walsh "Water Lily" table centrepiece, were certainly not Stuart.

2.  The vase in Hajdamach 1, plate 258.

I have one (which I will have on display tomorrow), slightly smaller at 11" compared with 14.5" in the book, otherwise identical.   The peculiar top of these is identical to that on a vase  that Gulliver has identified as Stuart from the pattern books — the only difference being that Gulliver's vase was shorter and squatter.   I've seen nothing in the continental glass links that looks remotely like this eclectic vase top.   So the vase in Hajdamach 1 is Stuart.

Take care with the date of Stuart's "Peacock Eye" patterns.   I know that circa 1910 onwards is now thought to be more realistic.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 22, 2014, 09:48:33 AM
Thank you Bernard.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Stuart dates though.
'Take care with the date of Stuart's "Peacock Eye" patterns.   I know that circa 1910 onwards is now thought to be more realistic.'

I have  Harrods catalogue pages with Stuart Peacock eye trail vases in and it's a 1907 catalogue they are from.

Can you help at all with the one question I have about the Jules Barbe vase in CH british Glass page 53 - the one given to his daughter? That is captioned Thomas Webb and it says Jules Barbe gave it to his daughter.  I believe it's a Stuart vase.
Thank you for any help you can give.
I appreciate it
m


Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Bernard C on February 22, 2014, 10:25:07 AM
I haven't time for this.   Bubblewrap and glass everywhere!!

Briefly, 1907 is circa 1910, so that's OK.

I can't find your reference, but Barbe's workshop certainly gilt decorated examples of Stuart "Peacock Eye" — I've seen photographs.   Why not?   It was an independent decorating workshop.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 22, 2014, 10:48:07 AM
Thank you Bernard.
And have a great and successful day tomorrow - I hope the weather is kind to you all.

Yes I know Barbe decorated for Stuart thanks :) 

What I wanted to know was whether the vase in CH British Glass Page 53 bottom picture left hand vase, was a Stuart vase.

Because I have a vase with the same decoration.   And I believe the vase in the book is Stuart , but it's captioned Thomas Webb and was donated to the Thomas Webb museum by Barbe's daughter having been given to her by Jules Barbe.

a) that causes some confusion if it's not a Webb vase but is captioned as being a Thomas Webb piece
b) it's rather ironic that a Stuart vase ended up in a Thomas Webb works museum
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Bernard C on February 22, 2014, 11:43:06 AM
Oops — wrong book.   p53 vase in Hajdamach II is Stuart.   The caption is misleading.

Please would you take a close look at yours.   I've a fabulous and rare tall 12" example in canary opalescent with canary opalescent ribs, which could have been made by picking up rods and lightly marvering them in, rather than dip-moulding, as they protrude slightly on the inside, the opposite of what you would expect from dip-moulding.

Barbe's daughter may have assumed Webb.

These date from circa 1902.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 22, 2014, 12:03:29 PM
 :-*

thank you so much!  I will copy and paste this discussion into my Jules Barbe thread if that is ok with you.

I have looked at my pair of Jules Barbe for Stuart vases (I think that is what you meant?) and there are no ribs.  The only 'bumps' that can be felt on the inside are exactly where the drop head dab trails have been applied to the outside pushing the inside in slightly.

I have also looked at my tall Stuart Peacock Eye vase and there are no ribs on that either - only 'bumps' on the inside where the trails and eyes have been applied and pushed in the inside slightly.

Your canary opalescent sounds amazing!

Thank you again.
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Bernard C on February 22, 2014, 08:13:24 PM
This afternoon I had one each of the four Stuart patterns discussed here side by side, i.e. dab trail, dropped head dab trail, Peacock Eye, and Barbe's daughter.   I'm now certain that Barbe's daughter was not trailed.  See for yourself tomorrow.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 22, 2014, 09:40:27 PM
I'm  not there tomorrow  :'(
However, are you saying Barbe's daughter was mould blown with the trail pattern in the mould?
So that would be different of course to the one shown at the Stuart museum in clear with green trails.
You do mean the one on page 53 in CH British Glass 20th Century when you say 'Barbe's daughter' don't you?  Just checking.
My drop head dab tail is definitely applied not mould blown as is my peacock eye.

Since you say you had the 4 Stuart vases there, I'm assuming the identification of 'Barbe's daughter' as a Stuart piece is not affected by the revelation that it's not separately trailed?

m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Bernard C on February 23, 2014, 12:26:09 AM
What I am saying is that my example of the Stuart pattern shown on p53 of Hajdamach II (Barbe's daughter) is far too precise and even for trailing when compared with my examples of the other three patterns.   The only technique I can think of that would fit this precision is picking up rods of colour (or the same colour) from a spacer and marvering them in, a technique I have seen used at Formia.   There may well be other techniques that would produce the same effect.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on February 23, 2014, 10:18:38 AM
Thanks for explaining - I didn't understand :)
therefore all the plain ones without peacock eyes and just trails,might have been done in this way.  I would make it quicker wouldn't it? and more consistent?
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on March 16, 2014, 12:34:11 AM
Bernard please can I just check something with you?
On this reply you mentioned a couple of pieces that were found in the Stuart collection that weren't Stuart -
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46323.msg316447.html#msg316447

I didnt' realise the Walsh waterlily centrepiece was found in the Stuart collection -   I think the Corning have said they bought it believing it was Carder but found the rd number afterwards?  Was that from the Stuart collection?
Sorry for doubting you,but I just thought I'd check  :)
m
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: Bernard C on March 16, 2014, 12:23:13 PM
Did I say that!   I must have been distracted.   ;D

The Walsh water lily centrepiece was in the Stevens & Williams collection at Honeybourne House Museum, and is famous (or infamous) for Simon Cottle at Sotherby wrongly listing it as S&W in the auction, and later publicly apologising for his mistake.   This is possibly the only time in history that an auctioneer has ever apologised for anything.

So it's at CMOG.   That's useful to know.   Thanks.   Is there a picture of it online?

Bernard C.  8)

ps - never rely on anything I say when I'm distracted.   Possible reasons include a surprise visit by the grandchildren when I have glass unpacked for sorting;  a pending visit to the doctor, dentist, optician, or ear specialist;  the OH threatening me with a haircut;  or a pending one-way trip to the vet with our own or a neighbour's cat or other pet that's passed its sell by date.    ;D
Title: Re: peacock eye trailed vases - Stuart or Walsh? late 19th or Edwardian?
Post by: flying free on March 16, 2014, 04:19:53 PM
 ;D phew - thanks for confirming.  I was just a bit confused and thought you must have meant Stevens and Williams :)
Glad to know.
The one in the Corning yes, there is a link.  I've put it on here somewhere.. I'll find it and add it here for you.  iirc it has the description of them buying it and then finding the rd number.  They bought it I think because they owned one that they believed was a Carder piece from his collection, but then when they got the new one and found the rd number,they realised what they had wasn't Carder but Walsh.
If I have recalled incorrectly I'll pop back and correct this post when I add the link.

The link is on this thread
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55703.msg315747.html#msg315747
the link to the Carder story is here for expediency :)
http://www.cmog.org/article/carder-design-reassigned
m