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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Tony G on May 31, 2012, 08:06:45 AM

Title: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: Tony G on May 31, 2012, 08:06:45 AM
Hi All,
           does anyone recognise a cane which appears to be three bright red cherries on a green stalk all on a white background? The paperweight in question has a number of these in one of its concentric rings of canes. The other canes appear to be white external with a coloured interior to an eight internal point tube. These canes also have a small tube at the centre. The weight has a rough pontil.

I'm sorry but I cannot get a photo of this paperweight.

Thanks
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: Nick77 on May 31, 2012, 10:17:34 AM
I don't recognise the cane but from the base it looks like possibly Strathern to me
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: KevinH on May 31, 2012, 09:39:43 PM
Sounds like it's the cane shown below.

This is one of many referred to as a "Salvador Ysart cane".

Without seeing the actual weight, it is not possible to say whether it is from the Ysart years or simply one that was used in later periods of Vasart Ltd. or Strathearn, or even perhaps from a range of "Unknown maker" weights.

Edited to add: Although it may well have been a "cherry cane", as may be seen from my photo, the "fruits" are formed from an 8-lobed "daisy cane", so it might even have been a type of "rose cane"!!
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: Tony G on June 01, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
Hi,
      many thanks Kevin. Your photo is exactly what I have described as 3 cherries although, as you say, it may have been intended as something else. After reviewing Richard More's photographs of Strathearn weights and looking at the other canes, I would guess at the Ysart connection but not particularly Strathearn.

Thanks again,

Tony
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: KevinH on June 01, 2012, 04:19:10 PM
Quote
The weight has a rough pontil.
A rough pontil mark is not usually (if at all) associated with Strathearn so, yes, I suspect it was most likely made in the Vasart Ltd or Ysart Brothers years.
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: Derek on June 02, 2012, 10:44:35 AM
Hi all

I would  have thought that the snapped pontil  pointed to either the Ysart Brothers
period or a later frigger rather than Vasart as Vasart were usually rough ground.

I have checked with Dave Moir who worked at Ysart Brothers,  Vasart  and Srathearn comtinuously
from 1954  to 1980 ( apart from 2 years National Service), when production of the Strathearn brand ceased.

Dave said that in all that time, he had not seen this cane,  which tends to point to it being a Salvador cane as noted by Kev.

Salvador died in 1955 but I do not know who got his canes after his death - although it seems likely it was Vince. 
The cane was not in with the general stock after Salvadors death otherwise Dave would have noticed it.

Best regards

Derek
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: KevinH on June 02, 2012, 04:15:24 PM
Tony said: "The weight has a rough pontil."

Without seeing what the base of the weight actually looks like, I cannot be sure that my interpretation of Tony's comment is correct. I felt that it meant "roughly ground". But Derek's interpretation of "snapped pontil" (which I would prefer to call a "snapped off pontil mark") might be correct.

That's the trouble with discussion of details without an image and the fact that there are several "pontil mark" descriptions which have become part of collector terminology. And there is further complication because of basal finishes that show evidence of two or more descriptive types!

Perhaps if Tony takes a look at my page of example Basal Finishes for Salvador / Ysart Brothers weights (http://www.btinternet.com/~kevh.glass/pages/salv-ybros/base.htm), he can find one that best matches the one we are discussing. (The page may need to be enlarged to see the details.)
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: Nick77 on June 03, 2012, 09:57:36 AM
Images are available but I assume the op doesn't want to advertise the link to where it is for sale, which is where I have seen the base, and thought it similar to my Strathearn or early Perthshire bases ;)
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: Tony G on June 03, 2012, 02:55:59 PM
Hi,
    the paperweight is in a sale at Eastbourne auction rooms Lot 1783 and has, what I now think, is better described as a snapped off pontil. Not sure how to take the image available and add it to this note.

Cheers

Tony
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: Nick77 on June 03, 2012, 03:07:01 PM
You can post the link to the catalogue, here it is
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/eastbourne-auction-rooms/catalogue-id-2862314/lot-14432266 (http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/eastbourne-auction-rooms/catalogue-id-2862314/lot-14432266)

Nick
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: Nick77 on June 03, 2012, 03:10:10 PM
I think the other one in the lot repolished could be interesting too, old english?
I think the £20- £30 estimates gone now though ;)

Nick
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: sussexglass on June 19, 2012, 12:01:18 PM
hallo,  im newbie to the glass message board but have the 3 cherries  (7 canes) weight which i just bought at the auction together with an old english weight. (i live nearby) i'm no expert  but i was presuming it could be a salvador weight after research, as it has the internal daisy canes almost same as bob halls concentric for sale and item 15 on ysart web page, and cherries are mentioned as 'salvadors cane' in kevins web page, but no pic.  if ive got it right or not?  blue  base has some untidy grinding and glass looks green .  just over 3 ins diameter  can try to post pics if anyone interested.(some on saleroom site )appreciate any comments
sussexglass 
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: tropdevin on June 19, 2012, 02:04:59 PM
Hi.

You outbid me (and others, I'm sure) on the cherries cane weight - an interesting piece - the cherry cane could have been used by Salvador, or someone else at Vasart.

The Old English weight in the lot is probably a Richardson, but the image on the auction site is so poor it is hard to tell, I guess because it is scratched. Has it got a high dome, or is it fairly flat? If the latter, then it is probably a cut down bottle base.

I saw there was an awful Chinese lizard, examples of which were in various charity shops a few years ago - someone paid £95 plus commission for it, which is about £92.50 plus commission too much IMHO!

Alan
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: SophieB on June 19, 2012, 04:45:32 PM
Hi Alan,

Are you saying that the weight in lot 1784 (Eastbourne Auction Rooms) was purchased for £95 excl. commission? Really?

That is an amazing result for the seller, indeed.

SophieB
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: KevinH on June 19, 2012, 04:56:35 PM
Hi sussexglass, welcome to the Board.

Well done on your purchase. The "Cherries cane" weight is interesting because the cane is usually only seen singly, and not that often.

Yes please to images in this thread - that would be very helpful for future reference. Please post at least three views: Top (straight down), Side (straight on) and Base (straight on). Depending on how the base is finished, an angled view may also be helpful.
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: sussexglass on June 19, 2012, 09:47:04 PM
hi kevin, i will get pics done in morning.thank you for your comments.

alan, regarding the other weight, the scratched one,the outside canes  are brought together under the base ( no ridge) and not cut and it looks pretty untouched, so not sure about inkwell. but you could be right. . no chips or bruises but as you say, could do with a light polish. there's a man i know who used to work at whitefriars who can do it ok although it wont suit some who like their paperweight 'warts and all' even if you cant see all the canes. auction pics can be a bit difficult to make out, no substitute for boots on the ground. bought a signed kilner weight with pink flowers recently cus base was unreadable on internet and just catalogued as a 'dump' cheers. appreciate your imput
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: sussexglass on June 20, 2012, 08:08:01 PM
posting my images of the 'cherries' paperweight   dms 3 1/8 diam  1 5/8 high inches   'cherries' small solid cogs uder the loupe. appreciate any feedback many thanks
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: KevinH on June 20, 2012, 11:07:01 PM
Thanks for adding those photos.

The base view matches well, in colour and finishing style, with several Ysart Brothers weights, and one of those (in my collection) is signed with acid "Ysart Bros Handmade Scotland".

The majority of canes are of the type that I call "open-centred daisy / star" and so far, every weight I have seen that is signed with a "Y" cane (perhaps about 20 weights) uses at least one row of the "open-centred daisy / star" type of cane. Most of the "Y" weights have the majority of the rows with that style of cane.

One "Y" weight that I know of is on a ground that also ties in well with this weight and my signed "Ysart Bros" example.

Although we cannot be 100% certain that Salvador Ysart made all of the Vasart-type weights using the "open-centred daisy / star" cane, I think the evidence to date gives a strong indication that he probably made most of them.

A word of caution though. The "open-centred daisy" cane style was also used by Paul Ysart. So far, though, I do not think I have seen an "open-centred star" in his work. But anyway there are all sorts of clues that separate his work from that of Salvador and Paul's brothers.

A good collecting theme could be based on the "open-centred daisy / star" cane as it would cover a large variety of "inner elements" and all sorts of weights with other interesting canes in them. And that would include at least two types of "Salvador Rose Cane" in addition to the "cherries cane"!!
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: sussexglass on June 21, 2012, 11:20:37 AM
KevinH,  Many thanks for your detailed appraisal and suggestions about collecting in this area. i'm pretty new to scottish glass and only bought my first pwt item, (a p.ysart harland wt) a few months ago. thanks again. sussexglass
Title: Re: Three cherries cane ?
Post by: sussexglass on June 21, 2012, 12:00:26 PM
just wanted to add after looking at other pages on tis site that 'cherries ' may be an inaccurate description, 'red flowers on a green stem' has been described elsewhere for this cane or does anyone have a anothe title?