Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Resolved Paperweight Queries => Topic started by: BJB on July 04, 2005, 01:50:27 PM
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I don't know if this is on the right board, but anyway here goes :wink:
Had a lovely evening last Friday with an elderly glass dealer friend, who brought round several paperweights.
Each had a PY cane, (two flowers, a fish and others,) and he told me they were fakes!!! made in the 1980's
Now, to be honest, I think he had bought them as "all right", as you don't spend money on 7 or more fakes surely? and then was informed they were wrong. :(
Now, to me, they looked OK, the flower ones were lovely with really complicated canes as the centers, but I am no expert :D :D
:lol: :lol:
When I asked Ron on Friday his explanation was Paul Ysart was tied into a contract which said he could only make weights with the PY cane for one person and one outlet and made these "fake" weights to sell on the side, so to speak.
What I would really like to know is, how can you tell a fake? who decided they are fakes? why were they made? would Paul Ysart really have done that?
Not much really :roll: Barbara
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Hi Barbara
If you log onto Franks superb site there are examples of genuine and fake PY weights... and if my memory serves me well an explanation also.
I would add however that distinguishing genuine from well made fakes requires a good deal of hands on experience and knowledge of the techniques used by the artist in question..... and me....I wouldn't know one from the other .
I dont know who told Ron the explanation you quoted but I hope they all got home ok :wink: :wink:
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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Hi Gareth,
I agree with you, jackanory does spring to mind :wink: , but it might have been true!
He is a good friend, and a really nice person,but not as knowledgeable as he thinks he is :(
The canes didn't look like the fake ones, but as you say, it is needs a real expert to see them, and photographs how ever good they are are never as good as looking at the real thing.
To be honest, I'm more confused than ever. It was lovely seeing the paperweights, but it hasn't helped any :oops:
If I decide to buy I will ask here first.
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Hi Gareth,
To be honest, I'm more confused than ever. It was lovely seeing the paperweights, but it hasn't helped any :oops:
If I decide to buy I will ask here first.
Hi Barbara
I didnt realise from your posting that you were considering buying one or some of these.... in that case I do strongly advise you to proceed with caution...and I must stress that in no reflects on the sellers credibility but his knowledge here does appear somewhat limited. What would really help you is if you could get some photographs first, post them here and then one of paperweight experts here could abvise you further.
One point worth mentioning is that a good forger often has considerable skills so again dont be swayed by the complexity of the pieces you are being show as confirmation of positive attribution.
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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Hi Gareth,
No, I don't want to buy any for now. But the funny thing was I saw a very small paperweight in a silver setting at a boot fair Saturday, and the seller said it was a Ysart. I forgot to go back and have another look, and for a tenner I would have risked it!
The reason I said I thought my friend bought them for real is the fact they still had his price labels on the bases £300-£500 each!! Ouch! He tried to hide them, then came out with "that" story. What are fakes worth today? Something, I suppose even if for research purposes.
Barbara
(Did like the fish one though :lol: )
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Hi Barbara,
As Gareth says, info on fake py weights is available through the Ysartglass website, but the really detailed stuff (with many of my thoughts and comments on these) is in my pages at:
http://www.btinternet.com/~kevh.glass/pages/fake-py/fake-py-weights.htm
It sounds to me that Ron has picked up on comments that are passed around but which are often based on either half-truths or just gossip.
Each had a PY cane, (two flowers, a fish and others,) and he told me they were fakes!!! made in the 1980's
Early 1980s is correct for the first known appearances of the fakes.
Now, to be honest, I think he had bought them as "all right", as you don't spend money on 7 or more fakes surely? and then was informed they were wrong.
Possibly as you say, Barbara, purchased as ok. But I have known cases where, in more recent years, some batches of a dozen or so have been bought together at a cheaper price than used to be asked.
Now, to me, they looked OK, the flower ones were lovely with really complicated canes as the centers
Yes, many of the fakes flower examples do appear to be be rather nice, and complex canes have appeared in lots of these weights.
When I asked Ron on Friday his explanation was Paul Ysart was tied into a contract which said he could only make weights with the PY cane for one person and one outlet and made these "fake" weights to sell on the side, so to speak.
Not true, as far as I am aware. His contract for signed weights was with an American importer / dealer (Paul Jokelson - one of the papeweight world's leading figures of the 20th century). Although in the later years, Paul's "home market" products often had an "H" cane signature, many were not signed. Paul did make "beer money" weights from the 1930s and possibly into later years as well.
I have heard yet another comment recently that the original fake py cane (as first known in the 1980s) was made by Paul. However, if that was true, Paul would also have had to have used somebody else's lampwork, and not the pieces made by his helpers, either - the lampwork in the fake weights is not consistent with Paul's work.
Take a look at my detailed info in the link (and the links from there) and see if the Flowers etc. are like the ones you have seen. And compare the coloured grounds too, because many of these are distinctive in the fakes. But the real clue is in the colour of the p (pink) and y (orange) in the signature cane, assuming you can get a close-up view. Paul Ysart's "py" was not two coloured.
If you can get some photos - please post them here, or send to me directly (email address in my profile) and I should be able to let you know if they are right or wrong.
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Hi Barbara
It always strikes me as very odd when someone says " heres something worth a lot of money and its yours for just a tenner"........ Philanthropists are something of a rare occurence at a boot sale and therefore to come out with a name like Ysart does make you think that the person has either picked the name up as a good one to quote or the very very unlikely situation of an article genuinly accredited by someone and yet with no idea of its commercial value. I err on the side of cynical disbelief.... but... if it was something that I really liked the look of then a tenner would be excellent and then anything else that added to its value a bonus..... if I didnt like it I would have walked away. That doesn't mean I haven't bought some right turkeys though Barbara....some of them so wrong even a turkey would have turned its back on them :roll: :roll: :wink:
Sometimes you'll find your gut instinct rather handy in situations such as these.
With regards to what value a "fake" Ysart attracts ... hopefully someone will be along soon to give you an idea as I am sure they do have some value.
Regards
Gareth
Morgan48
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Hi again,
Yes, the fake py weights do currently have a "market value" in their own right as they have gained a "collectable" status among many paperweight folk.
I always said I would never have any but after having receieved lots of questions, and not being able to show my own examples, I did eventually buy a couple.
I think the prices I last heard, where these were offered at large, outdoor fairs was around £75 per item. But folk have paid £150 or more for some of the better looking ones. I've not seen any on eBay for many months now (hooray!).
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Hi KevH,
The fish one looked like the first fish, but was purple, the flowers similar to 02 and 04. The others were just cane patterns, but not like the spoke ones pictured, more like the backgrounds of the butterflies 07 and 08, but where the "picture" is, the cane pattern continued.
The PY cane looked like the top right, but I have not seen a real one so I couldn't say what the differences are.
It would have been nice to see a proper Paul Ysart along side the others just as a comparison.
This as really made me think though,as I had no idea the fakes were as nice as they are! It is very easy to see why they are passed off as genuine.
One quick other question, the fakes being made in the 1980's, was Ysart really expensive then?
Missed the 1980's, was nurse training (and partying :wink: ) at the begining and a wife and new mother at the end, so wasn't into glass or collecting at the time :roll:
Am older, but not much wiser , but am soaking up as much information as I can to make up for those missing years :D
Barbara
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My links, less detailed then Kevin's
The story http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysartnews/YsartnewsSpecial.htm
The Type I fakes http://www.ysartglass.com/PaulYsart/PYfakes001.htm
The Type II fakes http://www.ysartglass.com/PaulYsart/PYfakes001.htm
Signatures compared http://www.ysartglass.com/BaseLabel/Labels.htm#Paul
I was the guinea pig for the first batch and paid £290 each for about a dozen. Had they stopped there the faking may never have been discovered as the first batch were very good quality. But he was greedy dealer and got his glass-making cronies to churn them out in large quantities, several hundred is probable. They only stopped when the police started raiding - they found nothing mainly because they were too eager to get the ring leader, a very wiley dealer much too clever for them. It get gave the others a chance to hide the evidence.
One woman, retired, bought thirty and lost her life-savings.
At that time the better Paul Ysart weights fetched around $1,000 a piece and in all my years of hunting had only ever found a handful of genuine weights.
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Hi Frank,
I had no idea how sophisticated the scam was, or how many weights were made, its mind blowing. And also very alarming.
I presume the mastermind was never caught, but is known to some. Not still dealing I hope :evil:
The second batch made in the 1990's, were they from the same source, or yet another scurge?
Having just read the information, I realise the weights I saw on Friday had small ground pontil marks, just like the photo. Certainly not flat.
The moral is, unfortunately, suspect every weight unless proved otherwise by a Ysart expert such as yourself or KevH.
The poor woman who lost her savings are the true victims in crimes like these, the forgers deserve to rot, not enjoy the high life. Only hope they get theirs some day :twisted:
Barbara.
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I presume the mastermind was never caught, but is known to some. Not still dealing I hope :evil:
The second batch made in the 1990's, were they from the same source, or yet another scurge?
Still selling, still getting garbage made and selling as Monart, Vasart... probably involved in 100% of all Scottish fakes.
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One can only hope they get too big for their boots, and finally get caught.
Trouble is they would only get a slap on the hand and community service :(
Has a good trade with China then! or does he get them made closer to home!?!
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All made in the Perth area. One batch of miniature Monart vases with faked labels were probably made in London by a now respected glass artist, during the 1980's.
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Frank,
I remember when I went to Broadfield House last year for my big 40 :( ,I had a long conversation with the glass blower who had the studio there at the time about all aspects of glass making. During this he said that he had been approached to make copies of glass pieces by known makers, but had refused!
He didn't go into much detail but said it was a large dealer in London, no names mentioned, and to be honest I wouldn't have the slightest idea if one had been.
At the time he had scruples, and a regular income, but for many who aren't doing so well it might be tempting. I'm not saying its right, a fake is a fake and casues a lot of heartache for those who have bought it as genuine, but its easy to see how it might be done, a lot like forged paintings I suppose.
Barbara
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I do not blame the glassmakers as there are just not enough collectors buying from them and of course the guilty ones are usually the dealers. There were four or five directly involved in the scam. They were mostly sold in England and the English police would not act because the maker was in Scotland... made it to complicated to bother with for them. There was a similar problem with Scottish police because they were mostly sold in England. I bought mine from an innocent Portobello Road weight dealer who would not get involved with the police. He did give me a lot of details about the operation. But the bulk of the information came through the network of the Cambridge Paperweight Club.
To this day the makers still involved are unknown. The early players ducked out.
:twisted:
The fake weights stopped by the time Perhshire Paperweights went bust.
The solution, get to those studios and by some hot 'Original' glass.
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Frank,
I bought two lovely pieces off him, as well as a load of books from the shop :)
There is no answer to the problem, only that they might be put out of business from the Chinese fakes soon :wink:
Barbara