Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: KevinH on June 05, 2012, 01:11:01 AM
-
[Mod: In another message (see here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,47852.msg269331.html#msg269331)) Keith asked about a vase with rounded ribbing for which Welz is very likely the maker. Member "M" (flying free), added info in that message about a similarly ribbed piece. The following extensions (with some editing) to that thread have now been split out to form this new message.]
The pics below show a) two vases of identical size, shape and ribbed moulded patterning and b) close up of a section of the left-hand vase. The ribbed moulding on these vases is "partial horizontal" to the body, "full spiralled" to the shoulder and part neck, and "full vertical" to the foot (but the foot moulding is wider than that for the body).
The very neat rounded ribbing of Keith's vase, and of M's in the other thread, reminded of these two I have. Although my vases, when looked at in detail, clearly have a more complex mould patterning, the general idea is remarkably similar.
As for the colouring of my two, I had wondered at one time, whether these were slight variations on the "Oxblood and Green" as shown in Craig's Bohemian site under the Welz section. And with the comments above regarding the other items, Welz could seem to be a reasonable candidate.
But I already knew of a seemingly accurate attribution ... Appert, France!
The 2009 issue of the Annual Bulletin of the Paperweight Collectors Association, Inc., has an article authored by three French paperweight collectors, titled "Appert Frères, Another Paperweight Maker". Within the article is a photo (Figure 5: Two shelves of Appert glassware in the Clichy Town Museum) which has a vase matching most of the shape and moulding of my two. The one in the article photo has pink, white and blue variegated colour, the top has multiple waves rather than the tricorn top of mine, and the foot appears not to have moulded ribs as can be seen on mine. Also in the article photo is a candlestick of the same pink, white and blue glass and with similar rounded ribs but in a spiral form.
So, was close-set, rounded ribbing something that was used by many makers, and in several countries? Or could it be taken as an indicator of one particular maker such as Welz?
Bearing in mind that my photos below are simple reference shots, using flash at close range, is the colour of my darker vase actually a match for "Welz, Oxblood & Green" or should colour matching not be taken as a specific clue to maker?
-
Those are interesting vases, and although the coloration does resemble Oxblood and green on the Welz pages, the shape does not strike me as their style. That being said, I would think that close ribbing is likely a trait used by more than one company. It is found on some Welz baskets. In the case of the items I believe link to Welz, the ribbing is continuous all the way around the pieces.
As I said in Keith's message, I would lean towards Welz on that piece, but am not 100% sure it is theirs.... I like your vases by the way.....
On another note, there is some glass I have seen recently which is multi-colored and although it looks quite Bohemian in decor, is actually not Bohemian but documented as French.....
-
And the picture in the PCA Bulletin does show some other vases with a multi-coloured decoration that could easily be assumed to be "Bohemian".
-
[Mod: The following was asked by "M" in a separate post but during reconstruction into this thread it did not merge in proper date / time order, so is shown here as a quote.]
Kev there is a vase like one of yours on ebay at the moment, it appears to have a snapped off pontil mark. Does yours have this or does it have a polished pontil mark?
thanks
m
Yes, eBay no. 290722682310 could be a twin to my lighter coloured example. :)
The underside of the foot of both of my vases has a simple cracked off mark in an indented area but the amount of indent and the remains of the cracking off differ, as would be expected from such work.
-
Well I'm just musing outloud here so open to correction :)
Kev, I'm not sure what you mean about the finish on the base - can these pontil marks on this type of cased clear over spatter type vase, not be polished?
I would expect a vase by Appert Freres to have a polished pontil mark. They made glass for Rousseau for example as well and I just don't associate them with unfinished pontil marks.
I also don't see this cut and polished rim on much of the French Glass I've seen in photographs or books, but then I have handled very little.
I have seen lots of these mottled vases of French origin in books and in one of my books there are a number of pics with these in from a Legras and Cie St Denis catalogue. They seem to all have firepolished rims, mostly ruffled, but unfortunately they obviously don't show the base and pontil mark. But again I don't associate Legras with a snapped off pontil mark.
I'm sure it will be just minutes before I am corrected ;D
As I said, I'm just musing outloud here :)
m
-
I would also comment that in light of the unfinished pontil area, that fact alone would have precluded them from being attributed by me to Welz. Welz produced a large quantity of fire polished and applied rim glass without pontil scars at all. The limited production they did do with pontil marks, like some baskets, had at least reasonably ground or polished bases.
-
M, my comments about the base finish only refer to the actual evidence of my two vases and what I can make out for the eBay example. I have no idea whether similar items might be found with a polished base.
As for Appert Frères being expected to have a polished finish, that is interesting. But I admit that it is a company I had not heard of until I read the article in the PCA Bulletin. And general French items of this type do not seem to feature much in my general glass books.
Craig, your points about the base finish indicating to you that it is not of Welz origin is very useful. As are your comments, in Keith's message (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,47852.msg269473.html#msg269473), about horizontal ribbing on Welz items extending fully around the body. All clues such as these are, I believe, very important in making an assessment of an ID. It's a pity that most reference books do not provide text or images covering base finishes, etc.
But that's something we can do in the GMB.
-
Kev you hit the nail on the head. That is the one thing that drives me mad with the glass books. I almost feel a vital piece of information has been witheld.
I don't know about your vases, but I've been checking out Belgian and French pieces this evening nothing so far.
I don't have anywhere near as many Welz pieces as Craig (nor seen as many lol) but I have one with a frilled top and did have another. They were both neatly and really nicely finished on the base. My other pieces all are mouldblown with a cut and polished rim and again the moulded base is really neat as is the rim.
I am very interested to know where they maybe from.
m
-
Kev, in the Legras catalogue 1899 vase 1177 is remarkably similar to yours but with some differences and actually sounds to be the same as the vase you are describing as in the Appert Freres picture!
The Legras catalogue 1899 is available on pressglas pavilion glas musterbuch, I'm sorry but I can'twork out how to do links on here.
whoops,just worked out where my links are ::)
http://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Legras-1899.9+B6YmFja1BJRD05JnByb2R1Y3RJRD00NDImcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9OSZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
m
-
Ooh! That's interesting. Yes, the shape and mould patterning of the 1177 vase in that Legras catalogue page is exactly like the one in the PCA Bulletin pic.
I have checked in Ivo's glass fact file a-z and he mentions the connection with Rousseau. But was there also a connection with Legras? Was Appert Freres possibly a company that regularly produced items for several others?
This is getting to be a bit like the Harrach items that Mike M has told us about in his Who Could Have Made This (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,47844.msg269289.html#msg269289) message.
I do like a good mystery meander now and then. ;D
-
As far as I have read Appert Freres were separate from Legras & Cie and I don't recall reading of a connection. I will have a look through and see if I can find anything else.
I have read that they made glass for Rousseau to his specific designs and from what I have read I understand they were for his company to cut and engrave and enamel once blown. This was before Rousseau & Leveille had the facility to create their own glass.
I have also read that Galle had used Appert Freres.
However,I'm still hanging onto the fact that the vases have a snapped off pontil mark and this is not something I associate with Legras or Appert Freres. It just doesn't feel right.
m
-
Just to clarify where I read my information:
The Art of French Glass |Janine Bloch-Dermant page 15
'While Emile Galle took particular account of the Apperts' metallic oxide combinations, both he and Eugene Rousseau benefited from advice offered by the brothers. In their time the glassware exhibited by the Apperts was held to be in no way inferior to the most beautiful Venetian products(plate 2)'. It is clear in the book btw that Rousseau bought his glass from Appert Freres as well.
A few points about the vases and my link above
-The vases pictured in my link above are from the Legras catalogue 1899. I guess that doesn't mean they were definitely made at Legras especially given Mike's thread you linked to.
- It has been quoted that at least one of them, the 1177 are in a museum collection listed as Appert Freres. I wonder if this is a case of mistaken identity on the museums part?
- Your vases have the same kind of ribbing to the 1177 but are different on the foot and have a three way crimped rim and are a different colourway. I suppose the theories on this could be they are:
a) a Legras piece but a variation on the range?
b) a piece made in the 'spirit' of Legras by someone else? Or conversely made by Legras in the 'spirit' of something else they'd seen.
c) Yours and the 1177 may be pieces made by the same factory, but not necessarily made by Legras, and that they supplied some to Legras(the ones in the Legras catalogues) and others they sold for themselves (perhaps examples like yours), that maybe had slight changes to the design and perhaps weren't finished in the same rigorous way as the finish I would have thought would be on the \Legras pieces (I'm assuming this since all the Legras pieces I've seen have had polished pontil marks, but it could of course be the case that they also sold/made pieces with snapped off pontil marks)
m
-
Kev I saw one of the vases like yours yesterday at the car boot. The same moulded body ribs and the three wave top. It had a sharp cracked off pontil mark on the base. It was a different colour to yours, more the burgundy, dark spatter colours with some white in it. I didn't feel it was the quality of any of the Welz pieces I own or have owned although that is nothing to go by I recognise. There were about three being sold with about 15 very large, what I think are Romanian (are they or did I make that up? I wonder), mottled spatter glass fish. Those large spatter ones you see on ebay listed as Murano 10" long. I just wondered whether these three wave top ribbed variation vases are maybe Romanian as well...if indeed the fish are? I suppose what I am questioning is whether the vases perhaps come from the same place as those fish.
Here's a link to the type of fish I mean
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,28881.msg156500.html#msg156500
m
-
I would add that when I was at the annual show I go to in Portland, I was quite surprised to see one of these in the same colors and form. It was quite a bit heavier than the Welz pieces I have in the similar colors. The base was also snapped and reasonably unfinished, not a trait I generally associate with Welz production as I have come to understand it....
It was an interesting piece of glass. they had it tagged as Bohemian or Czech. I would have purchased it for study and comparison but it was very overpriced.... I am glad I got to see and handle it though.....