Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Belgium and the Netherlands Glass => Topic started by: Antwerp1954 on March 11, 2014, 10:42:59 AM
-
My second purchase last Saturday and really pleased with it. The glass is made of a metal containing some lead. It gives a blue lumiescence under UV. The wrythen moulding on the bowl is reminiscent of that on the champagne glasses sold by Scottish Antiques at
http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/sebastienzoudeglass#.Ux7j_M60PRU
I have three glasses made by Sebastien Zoude of Namur one of which has the same moulded ribbed stem as this. All the glasses have the same type of high conical foot, and knops at each end of the stem.
But what is interesting is that there is a neat, well defined hole at the base of the bowl which leads into the hollow top knop. This hollow knop contains muck - perhaps dregs from wine or ale and dust collected over many years. Why would yoy make a glass with this feature? Perhaps to allow the sediments in wine to settle?
Date? My guess 1760?
Any ideas gratefully received.
-
I think the confirmation of your attribution can only be found at the museum in Namur.
http://www.lasan.be/?q=node/24
-
Ivo
Just had a look at your Blue Sputum website. My son is currently doing some medical work in East Timor. On his first day he saw a case of dengue fever, one of leprosy and three of TB. Since then he's also seen scrofula - an illness not seen in the UK for 50 years.
Stuart
-
Hi ,
I too had a good look at this glass and thought Zoude as the most likely candidate , there was also another little wine , i have been to the Museum in Namur many years ago and examples were on display then , even as far back as Barrington Haynes in the 60s these were recognized as Belgian glasses and zoude is known to have started using lead around the middle of the 18th c ,
The hole at the base is to my mind a flaw in production while the stem was being attached to the bowl, this is done by pushing the stem forcefully into the base of the bowl to get a good weld which can result in the nipples and bulges often seen in bowl bases , in this case i think the stem was pushed a little to hard creating a little bubble at the base which has collapsed leaving the knop exposed , the cleaning problem alone would suggest its not deliberate ,date I would think is about right c 1760s possibly a little later,its never possible to be 100% precise.
cheers ,
Peter.
-
I love this old glass, that's a lovely piece, i'm seriously thinking of getting rid of every piece of glass i own and collecting Georgian glass, if you were to buy from ebay and the like, are there any dealers you would recommend Pete or anyone else, or do you have your own websites? regards Chris.
-
Hi ,
As well as being a collector I am also a dealer and have been for a very long time , it would be best for this to be discussed by you contacting me or anyone else by the email icon under their forum name,
cheers ,
Peter.
-
Hi Antwerp1954 - love those Zoude pieces, but that link you posted has expired, d'you have any pics you could put up here ?
There's a couple of other items on that same website, but they're both already sold :(
http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/zoude-namur?filter_name=zoude#.VRcECWbyFIg (http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/zoude-namur?filter_name=zoude#.VRcECWbyFIg)
http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/sebastien-zoude?filter_name=zoude#.VRcEPGbyFIg (http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/sebastien-zoude?filter_name=zoude#.VRcEPGbyFIg)
sent them a message, and they were very helpful and informative, but didn't have any other examples available at the moment...
as for the hollow knopp, never seen the like - but was Belgian glass subject to the same sort of taxation as was the case in the UK - maybe it was a feature to reduce the weight and therefore the cost of the piece if it was intended for sale over here ?
-
Hi Gabriel
In the 1750s and the following decades Belgium as a country had yet to exist and was under the control of the Austrians. See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namur,_Belgium.
I now believe the hole into the knop is most likely to be a fault in manufacture or a puncture later on.
I'm attaching photos of my collection of Zoude glasses. They all have features in common. The way the bowl is attached to the stem, the stem/interface and their pronouced conical folded feet. However I think they are unique amongst my collection in fluourescing yellow and blue under the appropriate UV light.
It may take more than one message to post all the photos.
-
Part 2
-
Very lovely glasses Antwerp ,thanks for posting them up.
-
Hi Antwerp
Where did you manage to find them !!!!
In English we refer to the 1st and 4th items as being "nut moulded". I believe that the Liegeois term is "Fraise" or strawberry. I would like to know how you can positively attribute these to Zoude. Ive only read books ( A.Barr) but I think these may pre-date Zoude,
http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/product/product&filter_name=liege&product_id=1027#.VRnPAGbbVIg
...and how do you tell Liege from Nizet
I love the wrythem moulded bowls. The moulding is so much tighter than English equivalents. I guess these must be lead glass if Zoude ?
Please advise, sorry but Im just 5 months into collecting and have only bought one glass, which I use ! Im just learning
-
Hi Gabriel
Welcome to glass collecting. What was your first purchase?
The type of moulding seems to get all sorts of names depending on how pronounced it is - rice grain, honeycomb etc.
The link you gave shows a glass which might well be a Zoude. Alex is a very experienced and knowledgeable dealer who knows much more than I do. However, if the glass shown contains lead, then I tend to believe it was made by Zoude and on this occasion would disagree with his attribution.
How do we begin to attribute glasses to different areas and makers. Often we can't but there are sometimes characteristics in the form of the glass which help. Reading round the subject, looking at photos and handling glasses all helps.
Nizet? Do you mean Namur?
-
Hi Antwerp
I believe the Nizet glasshouse was in Liege. I think I have read that they were making lead glass, or experimenting with it in 1720-30 or so, a long time before Zoude.
I was simply wondering if Nizet is synonymous with Liege. If not how do you distinguish between the two and those produced by Zoude, who was making lead glass. The tight wrythening seems to be very much a Belgian trait.
Ive been looking at Corning and the Zoude catalogue. I know that this is deemed to be spurious but from your pictures, those on scottish antiques and the catalogue there are definitely some patterns that seem to repeat for Zoude / Liege / Nizet glass, the nut/honeycomb/fraise moulding on bowls being one, the tight wrythened bowls and the "torsinee" moulded stems, which were obviously dip moulded and twisted before being applied to bowls.
I bought one glass from Mark West web site, an "English ale glass" , but it looks as though these were made on the continent too. Its a fascinating hobby and the endless hours that can be spent on research and trying to decipher the point of manufacture appeals to me. I have become an armchair detective in later life.
-
I've been on the Corning Museum site but don't seem to be able to view the catalogue. How did you get to view it? Thanks.
-
Sebastien Zoude was located in Namur 1709-1779, founded the Zoude works in Namur in 1753 which lasted until 1818. He made full lead crystal 1762-69. Believe it or not, he did.
Louis Zoude took over in Namur 1819-1867 and opened a second works in Jambes in 1849. He died 1854, the company merged with Herbatte in 1865. It was closed by VSL in 1879.
Veuve Zoude Drion was located in Jumet-Brulotte (Charleroi) 1825-1878 and then merged into the S.A. des Manufactures.
-
Gabriel
What is the title of the book by A. Barr? What is the full name of this author?
Many thanks.
-
Gabriel
I've now had a read of Raymond Chambon's Hostoire de la Verrerie en Belgique. The three glasses below are all reckoned to be Belgian. My own look very, very, very similar in so many respects and test positive for lead. These facts lead to the conclusion that they were made by Zoude. Once we are familiar with the form and characteristics we can then look for similar glasses.
Chambon's book describes the glass of Zoude as demi-cristal in the it did not contain a lot of lead. Attatched are a couple of photos from Chambon's book, the first showing the glasshouses in Belgium and the second three Belgian glasses.
The Nizet, along with the Bonhomme, were a family of glassmakers in Liege.
-
Thank you, Antwerp, for the great pictures. I too am an enthusiast of 18th century "Belgian" glass. It's great to find myself among fellow collectors.
I've been pondering over the same questions that Antwerp has formulated on this forum. Since a year or so I have been reading most of what can be found on Zoude and Nizet. The literature has not provided me with a definitive answer. Nevertheless it provides clues and I am optimistic that we will find the final answer in the future. We will be able to rely on modern chemical analyses and some attributed examples and perhaps archaeological finds in public Belgian collections.
So what do we know? Most of the information that follows is based on the following two works.
- La Verrerie Zoude et les Cristalleries Namuroises. Alain Douxchamps, 1979.
- Het Glas in België. Luc Engen, 1989.
Zoude opened his glasshouse in 1754 and immediately disposed of an important quantity of minium (lead oxide). It seems he was adding small quantities of lead to his glass, but hadn't really discovered the secret of English crystal until 1762, when he wrote to the States of Namur that the secret had been revealed to him by a labourer at a newly established English glasshouse in Middelburg, Zeeland. His purchases of minium indeed show a stepwise increase around this time. Zoude reported that four of his glasses weighed as much as six from Liège (presumably Nizet). By 1768, Zoude had to be moved to a mental hospital. He was almost certainly suffering from lead poisoning... His wife Marguerite Pétiaux took over the lead with the help of one of her sons. In 1776, they decided to gradually abandon the production of English crystal, because it was found too expensive. In 1779, Zoude died and one year later his widow reportedly tried to sell the minium stock they were no longer using.
It is clear that Zoude copied the design of glasses from the Nizet glasshouse, which had been operational in Liège since around 1710, as he copied from others. Both Zoude and Nizet produced rib and nut moulded glasses and Nizet did so long before Zoude. In fact rib and nut moulding were already applied in the Façon de Venise, see http://www.auctions-fischer.de/kataloge/online-kataloge/232-europaeisches-glas-studioglas.html?kategorie=4&artikel=47625&L=&cHash=2bdf0565cd for example. Unfortunately we can't tell from the presence of lead alone whether a glass is Nizet or Zoude. On the one hand Zoude did not only produce lead glass, but also "ordinary crystal" without lead. On the other hand it is known that the Nizet glasshouse disposed of a recipe book from 1705 in which several glass compositions are given with minium or cerrusite (lead carbonate). So it is very probable that the Nizets experimented with lead in their glass. Most likely, though, this would have happened in the earlier days, before Zoude came into play.
We can't rely too much on the Zoude Catalog, as there are serious questions about its origin, see http://www.cmog.org/library/assessing-authenticity-putative-sebastien-zoude-catalog-1762.
As a guideline I would say that if you have a somewhat primitive or stylistically early and zero or low lead glass, such as http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/georgian-wine-glasses/18th-century-continental-glass?product_id=1027#.VRsJH_msXHQ, Nizet is the most likely producer. If you have a later looking and higher lead glass, Zoude is more likely, see http://www.scottishantiquesinc.co.uk/zoude-namur?filter_name=Zoude#.VRsK9fmsXHQ . From my collecting I also get the impression that Zoude mostly produced glasses with folded feet, where Nizet seems to have produced also a lot of glasses with plain feet.
I'll be happy to participate in any further discussions.
-
Hi Belgian Glass
Great contribution. Do you have some photos of your Belgian glass to share?
-
I don't believe the glasses below are Zoude. Does anyone have any ideas?
-
Hi ,
You might like to have a look at french glass for those in the first picture and if the knop on the glass in the second photo has a wrythen twist to it this is a common feature on Bohemian glasses , though I suppose could have been used elsewhere.
cheers ,
Peter.
-
Peter
Many thanks. The second does indeed have a wrythen knop.
Regards
-
WRYTHEN - predictive text!!!
-
Hi everyone
Antwerp was asking for some pictures. I'll mainly show examples from books, as these should be correctly attributed.
First some attributed glasses from Liège, presumably from the Nizet glasshouse.
-
Next some examples from Zoude, Namur.
-
And some more from Zoude. You can see that Zoude did not only copy Nizet...
-
Hi Belgian Glass
Wonderful! Which books are these pictures from? Do yoy possess any Zoude glasses?
-
Finally three glasses from my own collection, of which I'm 90% certain they are Zoude. Indeed they are very refined.
-
Hi Antwerp
The pictures are from two books:
- Patrimoine verrier en Namurois. Edited by Jacques Toussaint on the occasion of an exhibition in Namur in 1997. This book is now very scarce, unfortunately.
- Histoire du verre du Baroque aux Lumières. Jacqueline Bellanger, 2008. This book can still be found very easily.
-
Hi Belgian Glass
Many, many thanks. Just bought both books!
Do you have glasses from elsewhere?
Stuart
-
Good Morning Stuart
Did you manage to find the first book in a matter of minutes? I'm impressed! It took me months to find it.
I'm a Belgian and try to concentrate my collection on Belgian glass. I started off 1.5 years ago collecting Vonêche (1802-1830), but then my attention shifted to 18th century glass. Zoude and Nizet make wonderful research material.
What is your interest?
Raf
-
Hi Belgian Glass
My interest is anything before 1830. I started off with English glass but then bought a Hessen glass and immediately was hooked on continental glass.
It might be best to email me at sfgraveston@hotmail.com
Stuart
-
Belgian-glass thank you for posting these pictures.
I have one of these sets
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=56023.0;attach=172414;image
I don't think mine is lead crystal. It glows a faint yellow colour under UV and doesn't have a ring really.
So according to the picture above, that basket is dated c.1762.
I had mine tentatively named as Liege because of a reference in a Felice Mehlman book.
I suppose I'm just wondering if Nizet (Liege) were making lead crystal very early in the 18th, and Zoude not until 1762, then perhaps my set if not lead, might be Zoude from Namur? Is it possible to separate them like this - or were Nizet using both lead and non-lead?
I have just worked my way through a large collection of glass from the Musee du Verre
and couldn't see anything like my set.
There were these pieces listed as production Liege
http://balat.kikirpa.be/timthumb.php?src=http://balat.kikirpa.be/image/thumbnail/A116352.jpg&w=450&zc=2&cc=f0f0f0
http://balat.kikirpa.be/timthumb.php?src=http://balat.kikirpa.be/image/thumbnail/A116389.jpg&w=450&zc=2&cc=f0f0f0
and this and similar larger forms listed as 'Liege or Namur?'
http://balat.kikirpa.be/timthumb.php?src=http://balat.kikirpa.be/image/thumbnail/A116367.jpg&w=450&zc=2&cc=f0f0f0
but none the same as mine.
m
-
When I said 'one of these sets' in the post above the link doesn't appear to work although I thought I did a image url to the link - so mine is like the second set down on this post
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,56023.msg336832.html#msg336832
and then there is this which I've just found
It was formerly in the collection of the Musee du Verre and now in the Grand Curtius. Identified as 'Verrerie Nizet, Liège, debut 18e siècle'
It isn't the same 'knit' or design as mine or the one posted earlier in the thread though :-\
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Corbeille_et_plateau_(Verrerie_Nizet,_Li%C3%A8ge,_debut_18e_si%C3%A8cle),_Grand_Curtius,_Li%C3%A8ge.JPG
I suppose I'm now wondering if mine might be early 18th from Nizet given it is not lead glass, or middle 18th before 1762 from Zoude, or did both Nizet and Zoude make lead and non lead at the same time?
Also, the plates I've managed to find identified as 'Liege' all have the pinched knit as the outer rim of the plate, whereas mine has a plain rim to finish off the knit as it were, in the same way as the bowl and the same the plate in the Felice Mehlman book I think. I wonder if that denotes a different time period or a different maker?
m
-
This is what I mean re the rim - an example of a set with the bowl in the right knit and the plate having the knit as the outer edge rather than it having a finishing single plain strand of glass around the rim to finish it off.
http://www.ventes-elysee.com/Page_description.asp?sale=12&dayid=426&lotx=1&loty=495&id=384505&page_nbr=23
-
Hi flying free
Sorry for having answered before. I'm only seeing your posts now.
Since I had the discussion with Antwerp1954 I learnt some things. The most important thing is that the Zoude Catalogue is probably a fake by Raymond Chambon (1922-1976), who was unmasked as a forger by Janette Lefrancq (Annales du 17e Congrès de l'Association Internationale pour l'Histoire du Verre (2009), pp. 339 - 343). Doubts about the authenticity of the Catalogue were already raised by Watts and Tait (Journal of Glass Studies (2007), pp. 153 - 165). This is a very inconvenient truth, because some of Chambon's "findings" were so spectacular that they have been eagerly adopted in many books about historic glass and are still believed valid by many today.
Openwork baskets were featured in the Catalogue, but their production in Namur is also attested by other, contemporary sources, including in the early period 1755-1762. From my experience there are indeed two types of baskets:
1. The ones with pinched, U-shaped knit in bright colourless glass which seems to contain (some) lead. These have a thick moulded base. Because they also have some applications under the moulded base, they have pontil marks on either sides of the base.
2. The less carefully executed ones with V-shaped knit with a yellow-greyish tinge. These contain no lead and have a thin base with pontil mark only at the bottom side.
If you ask me, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Corbeille_et_plateau_(Verrerie_Nizet,_Li%C3%A8ge,_debut_18e_si%C3%A8cle),_Grand_Curtius,_Li%C3%A8ge.JPG (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Corbeille_et_plateau_(Verrerie_Nizet,_Li%C3%A8ge,_debut_18e_si%C3%A8cle),_Grand_Curtius,_Li%C3%A8ge.JPG) is a set of non-matching items of both types, of which the attribution "early 18th century" is very uncertain.
At this moment we cannot assign either of both types to Liège or Namur. On the one hand, Zoude in Namur is known to have produced ordinary greenish and "white" glass besides his lead glass. On the other hand, it is also possible that Nizet in Liège started using full lead glass a bit later than Zoude in Namur.
Either the U-type was a more evolved version of the V-type, or the U-type was a more luxurious version of the V-type.
-
Thank you. Watts and Tait makes very interesting and intriguing reading.
I shall wait and see what transpires eventually. Meanwhile my basket and plate remains my most beautiful piece of glass. Looks amazing with light on it, very glittery and sparkly.
m
-
It's a wonderful matching set. It took great skills and a lot of time to make this.