Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Chris Harrison on April 09, 2008, 09:48:18 AM
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I bought this at auction in a large lot in 2000 (I think).
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9811
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9810
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9812
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9813
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9814
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9809
It's pretty and irridescent, and is definitely of quality. The finish is faintly crackled if you look closely.
Polished pontil, but no maker's mark or signature that I can find. It has nice wear to the base so, if repro, it's probably not recent.
Going by the "6-pointed star" draping, I first thought it might be Powell, but apparently the finish is wrong.
3 or 4 years ago, a similar bowl on eBay was described as a "Loetz Coppelia bowl". It fetched £60 or so with lots of bidders.
I've seen a similar shape (taller) with the same finish described as being by John Walsh Walsh.
Can anyone confirm an ID for me?
Thanks.
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Hi Chris,
doesnt look quite the same as Coppelia, go to
http://www.loetz.com/
click on decors index on the left, and you can find some examples.
Regards
Andy
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If the crackle is in the iridescence, carnival people call it stretch iridescence
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Thanks, guys.
Andy, I've been going to that site for years, and still can't make up my mind! I think I really need to get your paws on a piece and get the feel, but I've never seen one in the glass, as it were. I've had my doubts from the start, and have seen nothing to help me climb off the fence.
Christine, that's grand.
http://www.shetlarglass.com/
has some very interesting info about manufacturing, including how the decor is produced. I've always wondered.
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Hi Chris,
This looks suspiciously like John Walsh Walsh 'Vesta Venetian' to me. See Fieldings Auctions 'Three Centuries of Glass' sale, 12 April 08 for two similar lots - 652 and 670.
Nigel
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Chris — A beauty.
... and thanks for counting the pattern repeats.
It is Walsh Mother-of-Pearl, 100%, no question at all. Production period uncertain, but most examples seem to date from the 1890s to the early 1920s in my opinion.
Their swags/drapes dip-moulded pattern is not one of their best known, but, by chance, I happen to have another similar example in stock.
The lovely crackle effect is not particularly common. Previously I've only seen it on their seaweed decorated cornucopiae with twiggy feet, again with well-flared rims (for an example see Gulliver p91, and, yes, that example is Walsh Mother-of-Pearl). It came about because of the difference in melting points of the two different types of glass used.
A tiny gather of an opaque or semi-opaque white opal, probably a lampshade glass, was cased in further layers of clear or coloured glass to make Walsh Mother-of-Pearl. After dip-moulding and blowing to the required shape and size, it was transferred to the pontil rod for finishing the rim. At this point, when flaring and/or crimping the rim, the slightly higher melting point of the white opal sometimes caused the crackle effect as it started to solidify while the rim was being stretched into shape. Note that the rim on your vase was crimped by the use of a former. The final process before cracking off the pontil rod was iridising, using a muffle oven.
Finally, to avoid confusion, you should always include the word Walsh with Mother-of-Pearl when describing this glass, also noting that it is not air-trap. What happened was that back in the mists of time one of the American glassworks used the term Mother-of-Pearl as a name for their range of air-trap glass. This expression, often abbreviated to MOP, then became standard collector terminology for air-trap in the USA. Hence the need for clarification.
Nigel — Vesta Venetian can be found in Walsh Mother-of-Pearl and other styles. The salient feature of Vesta Venetian is that it was ribbed, twisted, and then ribbed again using the same dip-mould, usually 18-rib, giving the effect of threading under vertical ribs. The first example and the second shallow bowl are both (also both 18-rib, also the foot on the first looks to be 16-rib, as expected); the second posy is Walsh Mother-of-Pearl, but not Vesta Venetian. Fielding's text is slightly confusing; possibly either a semi-colon or exchanging the two descriptions would have helped.
Bernard C. 8)
NB — The URL for citing this reply:- http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,20739.msg117233.html#msg117233
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The crackle effect is what Carnival and Stretch Glass collectors may call an "onion skin" effect. Simply put, in Carnival and Stretch, the onion skin effect is caused by ruffling, shaping, or flaring the glass after it has been iridised - thus causing the iridescence to produce the stretch (onion skin) effect. Carnival Glass, on the other hand, was (usually, not always) shaped first and then iridised and thus does not usually have a stretch effect.
Glen
EDITED TO ADD SOME PHOTOS OF "STRETCH" CARNIVAL- if anyone is interested
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/Celeste.html
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Wow! Thank you all - Bernard in particular.
I'm glad you mentioned the use of the rim former. One reason for my hesitation was the fact that the crimping is perfect. I was doing my best to imagine the gaffer, jacks in hand, measuring the spacing by eye, and marvelling at the skill involved!
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a Fenton stretch glass vase donated to my museum in 2005 - thanks again!
http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/vasen/03113.html
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I have had three queries on my previous reply by email. I don't usually respond to such emails, as I think those making such enquiries should join and use this message board, and emailed replies don't benefit from the critical and informed reviews of this membership. However they are areas that would benefit from clarification, so here goes.
... for an example see Gulliver p91, and, yes, that example is Walsh Mother-of-Pearl ...
Q. How do you know?
A. I actually bought that particular vase from Mervyn Gulliver, so had the chance to inspect it. The inner opal layer of Walsh Mother-of-Pearl could be stretched so thinly as to become almost invisible. This was particularly the case with epergne flutes, and a cornucopia is just an epergne flute with a twist in the tail. The crackle effect was almost invisible as well, but still definitely present.
... Vesta Venetian can be found in Walsh Mother-of-Pearl and other styles. The salient feature of Vesta Venetian is that it was ribbed, twisted, and then ribbed again using the same dip-mould, usually 18-rib, giving the effect of threading under vertical ribs. The first example and the second shallow bowl are both (also both 18-rib, also the foot on the first looks to be 16-rib, as expected) ...
Q. Why "as expected"?
A. When a single piece was made from two or more components, two separate teams of glassmakers were involved, timing their work so that the components would be available and at the correct temperature at the precise moment they were required. I've seen this at Formia on Murano, and it is the most wonderful split-second choreography, made even more amazing by the glassmakers having an argument about last week's football results or whatever. It makes ballet dancers look like amateurs! Anyway, all Vesta Venetian made from two ribbed components, such as an added Vesta Venetian foot or ribbed handle, required the use of two ribbed dip-moulds, one for each team. And there seems to have been just the one 18-rib mould at the Walsh glassworks. So the second team used a 16-rib mould, the nearest size available. The 18-rib dip-mould seems to have been reserved exclusively for Vesta Venetian until production ceased, when it was occasionally used on the later Walsh Iridescent range. Most such Vesta Venetian is this 18-rib / 16-rib combination. Note that I am not talking about separate items like lids here. Also note that I couldn't have written all this had I not been counting pattern repeats for some years.
... Note that the rim on your vase was crimped by the use of a former. ...
Q. Was all crimping by former?
A. No. Walsh also used hand crimping, particularly on small cupped bowls, and it can be quite distinctive. I've never seen a completely swung random crimped rim, such as you see on some early Whitefriars pieces, but I suspect that some pieces were crimped by former and then swung.
Bernard C. 8)
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... Vesta Venetian can be found in Walsh Mother-of-Pearl and other styles. The salient feature of Vesta Venetian is that it was ribbed, twisted, and then ribbed again using the same dip-mould, usually 18-rib, giving the effect of threading under vertical ribs. The first example and the second shallow bowl are both (also both 18-rib, also the foot on the first looks to be 16-rib, as expected); the second posy is Walsh Mother-of-Pearl, but not Vesta Venetian. Fielding's text is slightly confusing; possibly either a semicolon or exchanging the two descriptions would have helped. ...
All this was rather naive of me — I should have realised that as Fieldings gains experience as auctioneers, their use of auctionspeak (a language very similar to eBayspeak and eBayfeedbackspeak) is becoming more sophisticated. With this in mind, you will see that their description of the posy in lot 670 doesn't actually say anything, so it's impossible to criticise them in any way.
Yesterday I examined both lots that Nigel mentioned for myself.
Lot 652 is fine, a lovely example of Walsh Vesta Venetian in Walsh Mother-of-Pearl, sadly missing its brass flower holder.
Lot 670, the "shallow bowl", is trickier. It isn't Vesta Venetian — the apparent threading effect in the photograph on the sides of the central well is, I think, just a trick of the light. Yet I'm certain that it is Walsh Mother-of-Pearl, although the opal layer has been stretched so much as to be almost invisible, and it is 18-rib. I believe it was made as an underplate for a smaller version of the vase in lot 652 by the Vesta Venetian team, and so could be considered a Vesta Venetian accessory. So, in a roundabout way, Fieldings' description was more or less accurate! Am I being too generous?
Lot 670, the posy, is much easier. It is not Walsh, but an unfortunate piece of heavy mould-blown rubbish, optimistically married up with a rather nice but ill-fitting brass flower holder that has lost its original vase. It is one of two pieces that shouldn't have been included in this auction; the other being the sphinx with a huge lump missing from one corner. Their only saving grace is that they make all the other 807 lots in the auction look wonderful!
Bernard C. 8)
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... Lot 670, the posy, is much easier. It is not Walsh, but an unfortunate piece of heavy mould-blown rubbish, optimistically married up with a rather nice but ill-fitting brass flower holder that has lost its original vase. ...
I could be wrong! See this eBay listing (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330226122863) for an apparently identical posy. Perhaps all their flower holders are a little loose.
Anyone want to lend me a bigger shovel? Or a JCB, perhaps? :-[
Bernard C. 8)
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Just keep on digging the way you are, Bernard. It's good for the cardio fitness... and I'm learning ever such a lot! :D
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Im just digging around in Steuben, found this nice item, just thought you might like it :D
http://steuben.com/acb/product2.cfm?section=37&subsection=0&group=all&product=1482
Andy :D
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Lots of cross-cultural exchanges in the 1900s... ;D
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Andy — Fascinating. I've not really looked at Steuben glass before, and it's interesting comparing it with Walsh. I can see that I will have to read the book on Frederick Carder. Thanks.
Bernard C. 8)