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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Leni on August 15, 2005, 09:21:39 AM

Title: Lizard weight
Post by: Leni on August 15, 2005, 09:21:39 AM
At the Paperweight Day at Broadfield House on Saturday - a fantastic event, by the way (and Jonathan got to play with some glass *again* - I'm really beginning to resent him 'muscling in' on 'my' thing!  :twisted:  :wink: )

Where was I?  Oh yes .... at Broadfiled House I was talking to Kevin about 'Chinese' weights (again :roll: ) and he suggested I post this example of a lizard weight.  I think it's probably Chinese, but IMHO it's an example of the problems the early (antique) glass makers had of getting the lizards and snakes placed in the weight without the introduction of bubbles around the lampwork.  http://tinypic.com/akv49e.jpg

Yes, he's crude and 'basic', but IMHO this little fellow is no worse than some of the early trials of glass makers whose work is now considered 'collectable'.  

And here's the base, which is matt smooth, and therefore *must* be Chinese, eh?   :wink: http://tinypic.com/akva0w.jpg

Have I just commited Heresy?   :shock:  :oops:  

Leni  :lol:
Title: Lizard weight
Post by: chopin-liszt on August 15, 2005, 09:48:56 AM
:D Hello Leni, This is Chinese - From The Cancer Research Shop, £4.99 about 4-5 years ago. :D
Title: Lizard weight
Post by: Leni on August 15, 2005, 09:56:24 AM
Quote from: "chopin-liszt"
:D Hello Leni, This is Chinese - From The Cancer Research Shop, £4.99 about 4-5 years ago. :D

No, it's Chinese from ebay, £4.20 about 2 months ago  :lol:  :wink:

Leni xx
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Anonymous on August 15, 2005, 11:30:00 AM
Quote from: "Leni"

Yes, he's crude and 'basic', but IMHO this little fellow is no worse than some of the early trials of glass makers whose work is now considered 'collectable'.  

Leni  :lol:



Absolutely...... in fact more than one renowned maker.......but then perhaps now we'll be advised the errors of our observation and told why silver only sort of looks like platinum.



Gareth
Title: Lizard weight
Post by: chopin-liszt on August 15, 2005, 01:00:40 PM
:D I saw one in an antique centre, priced £20 just two weeks ago! :D
:D:D I gave one to my brother in his Christmas stocking 4-5 years ago. It lives in his bathroom. :D:D
:(:(:( It's nicer than the square fishy one I got for my bathroom. :(:(:(
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: dreamticket2 on August 26, 2005, 07:37:52 PM
Quote
Yes, he's crude and 'basic', but IMHO this little fellow is no worse than some of the early trials of glass makers whose work is now considered 'collectable'
.  

Yes, I agree and I like my lizard too :)
http://tinypic.com/b6y2xz.jpg
 :D
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Leni on August 26, 2005, 11:10:27 PM
Quote from: "dreamticket2"
Yes, I agree and I like my lizard too :)
http://tinypic.com/b6y2xz.jpg
 :D

They're definitely brothers!   :shock:  :D  :lol:

Leni
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: karelm on May 21, 2007, 04:19:09 PM
I recently bought the other brother....9.99 on ebay....
And if I may say so as a collector who cannot affort the "classics" I am very happy with my little green lizard!
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: glasstrufflehunter on May 22, 2007, 02:57:47 AM
He's a charming fellow. I have a soft spot for Chinese 'critter' weights.
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: RAINBOWGIRL on May 22, 2007, 12:54:18 PM
Quote from: chopin-liszt
:D Hello Leni, This is Chinese - From The Cancer Research Shop, £4.99 about 4-5 years ago. :D
No, it's Chinese from ebay, £4.20 about 2 months ago  :lol:  :wink:

Leni xx

I have see this "Cancer Research Shop" referanced before and I hope the person posting this will stop refering to it as if it's some kind of paperwaight center or maker or distributer. It's a charty shop that is simply a venue for selling many diferent items. The paperwaight has nothing to do with the crushing diseese of canser or the benevolent shop that is trying to assist those who have suffered or are suffering from cancer. The primitive lizard waights are numerous and can be found on eBay and at many flea markets.
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Sue C on May 22, 2007, 03:41:35 PM
Hi Rainbowgirl, i dont think anyone was refering to the shop as a distributer or maker of paperweight's, but simply that the weight was bought there, as a person who has been there i fully support cancer research, and a remark that someone bought something,anythingfrom the shop should be viewed as a good thing, so please don't take offence,i dont.
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Anne on May 22, 2007, 04:50:05 PM
In fact some charity shops, include those supporting cancer research, buy in new items for onward sale, so they could legitimately be described as a reseller of such items. I do know that some such shops have sold paperweights on this basis. Another example would be the new textured vases in the Whitefriars style which were sold by the British Heart Foundation a few years ago.  No-one is claiming that the items are a product of such outlets though. (Speaking as a former cancer research shop volunteer!)   8)
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: karelm on May 22, 2007, 05:47:17 PM
"snip" I have a soft spot for Chinese 'critter' weights.
I know of this one, the crab and then all those ones with flowers and bees/wasps/frogs etc.  Which other ones are there with just the critter sans flower?
kind regards
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Max on May 22, 2007, 07:02:45 PM
Ok...mine's got a great big flower, but it's got a bubble and an upside down octopus and a frog that get magnified through it.   ;D

I do rather like it too, which is why I haven't sold it - besides, it has memories of a good day out.  :)

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7148

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7147


Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: tropdevin on May 22, 2007, 07:18:31 PM
I do not share the view that some express about Chinese weights.

Yes, there are quite a few 'Can you make 200 or 2,000 or 20,000 of those please' weights, often nearly as dull as the typical Caithness swirls and bubbles. [I believe that Caithness decided to buy in the low end weights from China towards the end, rather than copy them.]  But there are also quite competent animals, flowers, millefiori from China - their only crime seems to be making them in bulk...

And just how many of the dull, boring 'Flower and bud' weights are there skulling about from the 'Master', Paul Ysart? Lots and lots. Are they interesting?  Matter of opinion.  How many of those were his lampwork, rather than one of his trainees?  Answers on a postcard please....

Alan
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: glasstrufflehunter on May 22, 2007, 08:14:43 PM
Karelm: The critter weights I was thinking of included flowers. I have some with bees, butterflies and one with tadpoles swimming above some sort of aquatic plant. I have yet to get a hold of one with frogs. I have seen a Chinese lobster weight with the critter on a solid blue ground.

Max: That is an excellent critter weight. The flower is really lovely. I have never seen the critters perched on a bubble before.

Of the Chinese weights, I like their flowers and animals best, though I did get a hold of a very nice crown weight last year. http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?album=227&pos=0
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: RAINBOWGIRL on May 22, 2007, 09:49:26 PM
[I believe that Caithness decided to buy in the low end weights from China towards the end, rather than copy them.]

I think this is one of the most outragusly inacurate statements I've seen in a long, long time. Are you actuelly writing that Caithnes bought Chinese weights and, what..., sined them as their own? Rubbish. Uttah rubbish.

And to even compare Paul Ysort (or Caithnss for that matter) with the Chine output that's seen evrywhere is also absurd. Ysort is one of the graet ones. And the Caithnes glass people did darn themselves.
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: David E on May 22, 2007, 09:58:45 PM
Karelm: The critter weights I was thinking of included flowers. I have some with bees, butterflies and one with tadpoles swimming above some sort of aquatic plant. I have yet to get a hold of one with frogs. I have seen a Chinese lobster weight with the critter on a solid blue ground.

Max: That is an excellent critter weight. The flower is really lovely. I have never seen the critters perched on a bubble before.

Of the Chinese weights, I like their flowers and animals best, though I did get a hold of a very nice crown weight last year. http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?album=227&pos=0
I have to say there are some incredibly nice weights out there. What other variations are there of included animals?

Polar Bears, Sharks, Trolls? ;D
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Anne on May 22, 2007, 10:28:45 PM
I seem to recall Ivo mentioned a troll along with his vikings a while ago David.  8) 
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: David E on May 22, 2007, 10:36:03 PM
Ah yes, that would be the Pukeberg Viking? Do we have a pic?

(http://www.debook.com/animal/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/7cb90e3e83e7dd3081c7c7d441e6103f.jpg)  >:D ze phantom
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Anne on May 22, 2007, 11:04:02 PM
Pukeberg and Lindshammar vikings and unidentified troll David:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,5889.msg81435/topicseen.html#msg81435
Not sure he'd be much of a paperweight though.  ;)
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: karelm on May 23, 2007, 03:21:16 PM
Hi,
I've also seen the penguins but they dont seem so nice, the crab that was on ebay (sorry cant find the link now) recently was also a nice weight.
I believe that in time these MAY become the collectables of the future, if one only looks at the reference books many of them are starting to list the older chinese weights and their prices are starting to go up already.
Kind regards
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Ivo on May 23, 2007, 04:20:49 PM
Did anyone say TROLL?


http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7168

This one is by Hadeland and will actually hold a pile of papers down.

You see, trolls and paperweights do mix after all....
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: josordoni on May 23, 2007, 04:28:47 PM
that's not a troll, that's a wol...

in the Winnie the Pooh sense, of course....

Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: tropdevin on May 23, 2007, 09:05:28 PM

I think this is one of the most outrageously inaccurate statements I've seen in a long, long time. Are you actually writing that Caithness bought Chinese weights and, what..., signed them as their own? Rubbish. Utter rubbish.

And to even compare Paul Ysart (or Caithness for that matter) with the China output that's seen everywhere is also absurd. Ysart is one of the great ones. And the Caithness glass people did darn well themselves.

Let's examine what aspect of my post was 'utter rubbish'.

I did not say Caithness bought Chinese weights and signed them as their own.  Caithness made some very high quality signed lampwork weights, and - in my view - rather too many horrid swirls and bubbles, which they also signed. But I have seen for sale some horrid swirl and bubble weights (in significant numbers, in commercial outlets) which have ground, slightly irregular bases, and carry a paper 'Caithness Glass' sticker. Not 'Handmade in Scotland' etched on the base, or even on a sticker.  Where were they from? Not Scotland, I fear.

As for copying the Chinese, I was thinking off the appalling 'Glass Zoo' items like Boing the Bird, Trumpet the Elephant, and similar cheap trashy trinkets. China and Murano had been producing such items for years - why did Caithness copy them? Please don't claim they are original and wonderful designs from a team of craftsmen...

Ysart is a great what?

Teacher - undoubtedly. His students' and apprentices' lampwork is often indistinguishable from his own.

Man who ploughed the lonely paperweight furrow when few others were interested? Yes - but don't forget that Walsh Walsh were making paperweights throughout the period that Paul was learning, right up to 1950. Then Whitefriars joined the game. Then came Jokelson to 'lead the revival' (I think fan the flames would be the best description).

Failure when it comes to learning how to match glass and anneal it? Yes. Have you ever seen from any other maker such a high proportion of weights that have cracked since manufacture? I very much doubt it.

Let's keep things in perspective.  Caithness have made, and continue to make, some superb weights. But they have marketed far too much rubbish - hence they went down the pan in their previous incarnation.  Paul Ysart was a very competent maker who pursued a private interest (paperweights) with little or no managerial support for much of his career - that takes some doing, and deserves a lot of credit.  He made some very attractive weights. But he also had his failings: in some people's view, including mine, poor colour sense - too many muddy or garish products. And serious technical failings with his glass during or after annealing, leading to cracked weights, often years down the line.

Alan
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: glasstrufflehunter on May 23, 2007, 10:42:44 PM
I collected Glass Eye for years and after a while they all started looking alike to me -various configurations of bubbles, spatters and swirls and latterly dichroic glass thrown in. Caithness did not appeal to me because it cost four times as much and was basically the same thing. I do like Caithness's lampwork and millefiori. I have one so far (shamrock with mille garland) and am looking for others. They're pretty uncommon compared to the swirl and bubble weights.

Lately, I have seen a very nice lampwork weight by Glass Eye.



Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: RAINBOWGIRL on May 24, 2007, 12:43:24 PM
To Tropdevin: You defiintely rote this: "I believe that Caithness decided to buy in the low end weights from China towards the end, rather than copy them."

So, I gather you is sentence? It's a serious slam at Caithnes and you imply that Caithnes bought weights from Chine.

Now, you're writing that it didn't? Chinais weights are not the gretest, and to smear Caithnes with this sillness is ofensive to all the men and women who worked there and who continue to work there under Dartintown.

As for your rip at Ysort. Give me a beak. In the 1950s, the man - Paul Ysurt - along with Chss Kazien, Jr. in the U.S., and the early experiments from Bacarat and Saint Lewis in French, helped bring about the paperwaight renaysance that we continue to enjoy today.

And you have a wesite that sells paperwaights? Unbevable.

As four Glass Eye Studio, you can view it output at: www.glasseye.com

 
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: tropdevin on May 24, 2007, 01:04:19 PM
To RAINBOWGIRL

I am not backtracking - I never said that Caithness bought weights from China, and signed them. I said - and I am happy to re-iterate - that "I believe that Caithness decided to buy in low end weights from China towards the end, rather than copy them". I did not say or imply they appeared with 'Handmade in Scotland' engraved on the base.  But I do think that weights appeared in commercial outlets, as I said above, with 'Caithness Glass' stickers on the base.  That does not take anything away from the skilled craftsmen and women at Caithness - rather the reverse, I would say.

Regarding the paperweight renaissance, who produced the first dated paperweight in the 1950s?  Not one of the companies you name, but Whitefriars, in 1951.  That was a couple of years before the French factories got back in the act, inspired by Jokelson.  I don't think any single person - maker, dealer, entrepreneur - led the revival.  A whole range of people spotted an opportunity and managed to exploit it quite successfully.

Regarding Paul Ysart - are you claiming that the quality of the glass in his earlier work is as good as other makers? The evidence is to the contrary. And I stand by my comments.

Sorry if inconvenient facts get in the way of cherished beliefs.......

Alan
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: karelm on May 24, 2007, 02:44:44 PM
Hi,
As a matter of intrest how common are Caithness stickers.  I believe it is general knowledge that Murano stickers are not that hard to come by, (I have actually had a shop here (Vienna) offer to stick one on a weight that the assistant said he "thinks it is from Murano").  So was there a similar situation with Caithness stickers?
Also I personally have no problem if Caithness had bought in cheap weights (Chinese or other) and labeld them.  It is a sound business practice that is followed in the electronics market as well as in several other markets. 
Also it makes business sense to have lower end and higher end products to saturate your market.  If you buy the cheapest BMW you are sure as hell not getting a product that is remotely the same as the most expensive BMW.
Therefore if they did do this it makes business sense, it is up to the buyer to determine if what s/he is buying is the quality that they want for the price that they are prepared to pay.
Kind regards,
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Frank on May 24, 2007, 03:40:48 PM
Stickers are gummed and printed paper labels. The simpler the sticker the easier to reproduce with embossed and special shaped labels being harder to reproduce but not impossible. Labels made before, say arbitrarily, 1950 will be harder to reproduce due to the paper ands printing methods used, by the 1980's many were being made with plasticised materials that are easy to distinguish from older types.

But as with signatures, labels are easily added and are just another indicator of provenance. Ultimately you need a match on design, materials, manufacturing methods including finishing, in addition to labels and signatures. Most of the problems are encountered with the gift trade articles and it has been common practise since the souvenir trade began to produce these at the lowest possible price. I was always amused as a child to read the "Made in Hong Kong" or "Foreign" on the seaside souvenirs of Southend-On-Sea. Nothings changed but some still find it hard to accept.

Paul Ysart's earlier production of paperweights were made in difficult circumstances because of the intolerance of Salvador Ysart who regarded them as a complete waste of time, an attitude unchanged at Vasart. They did however have a good market, via Pirelli Glass, for these 'gift trade' baubles, the women could assemble the canes and the men could finish them off quickly resulting in very cheap items for resale... allowing the production of the important non-weight production to continue. No real art involved, yet some very attractive weights were also being made, no doubt because they did produce valuable cashflow. The abstract weights that were made at Strathearn and Caithness, Selkirk etc were also targetting the gift trade - being much easier and cheaper to make than millefiori. It is arbitrary who made the lampwork in PY weights as the concept of 'designer' weights did not really exist everything was the output of a chair  - arguably until the 1990's when designers were being acknowledged in Caithness catalogues.

In 1989 John Deacons wrote "The few better quality weights I make are for collectors who phone or visit me. My main market is in the cheaper millefiori paperweights which I make in quantity. The workshop which I operate at present gives me a reasonable income producing paperweights which do not give production problems. I intend to continue this type of operation, gradually improving equipment etc. and perhaps producing a few more ‘specials’."  http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysartnews/YsartnewsSpecial.htm#Deacons  In 2007, his studio is now one of the most important in Scotland, and longest surviving!

Memories are short and for those collecting paperweights in the last ten years would do well to look at the past history of collecting. Note also how the calibre of information has improved, often well referenced and approaching academic standards, although some still write with no acknowledgements to their sources they are more likely to be ignored.

In the 1980's Paul Ysart weights were nearly all in the USA and most of his unsigned pieces unrecognised or assumed to be antique (Bergstom collection). All 1848 weights were Whitefriars, now none are. It was collector groups in the USA, Germany and UK that started to change the culture and knowledge base through the 1970's and 1980's. As each area has been more extensively researched so more unrecognised weights are known as such and the process of ferreting out who made them continues. The growth of the Chinese gift trade weights has raised hackles but it has also started to fill in another area of unknown. A never ending process. Now we know Murano stickers are available in Vienna too ::)
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: glasstrufflehunter on May 25, 2007, 05:48:36 AM
Those simpler millefiori weights that John Deacons produces help pay for the time he spends on the really special weights. And he is making some really fabulous ones. I have not a few of the bread and butter weights but I also have a couple really special ones. He's a very fine artist that I have come to appreciate more in the last couple of years.
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Max on May 25, 2007, 06:30:28 AM
I have to confess that all this talk of John Deacons is making me want one of his weights...and I don't even collect paperweights!  One will have to go on the 'Want One of Those' list now.   :D

Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: karelm on May 25, 2007, 05:40:31 PM
Max,
This could get expensive.  Do not look at 190114874375 or at 320116631108 by using the ebay search tabs at the top of the page.  You have been warned  >:D  >:D
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: David E on May 25, 2007, 05:55:34 PM
Hmm, not all that expensive! :o 8)

Don't look Max! ;)
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Max on May 25, 2007, 07:46:09 PM
Hmm...although I (http://tcwozere.co.uk/smileys/bowdown.gif) to Mr Deacons, those particular two don't inspire me...I want something that moves me, something that causes me to burst into song and brings joy to my cerebellum.  :D

I'll keep looking.  Sooner or later a paperweight, maybe a Deacons one,  is going to totally ding my bell, and that'll be it.  I'll actually buy an expensive one.   :o



Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: josordoni on May 25, 2007, 07:55:07 PM
Well Max, if you want a really really nice lizard, how about this one (http://www.banfordpaperweights.com/satngeko.html)
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: David E on May 25, 2007, 07:56:23 PM
Oh, and have you told OH about the new shelf he's got to put up in the shed? ::) ;)
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Frank on May 25, 2007, 07:58:27 PM
Hmmm, probably excellent going by the name but such a tiny picture really devalues it. Anyway Max it is NOT Scottish ;)
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: josordoni on May 25, 2007, 07:59:24 PM
Oh..... has it got to be Scottish??

I didn't realise that.... ???
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Max on May 25, 2007, 08:20:24 PM
$1500?!  Good grief!  (or as they say in Scotland 'Good Crieff!')   That is a lovely weight, and the lizard is superb!  There's too much choice in paperweights.  For a novice collector, it's hard to know where to start.  I do hanker after a lizard (as Kev knows) though.   :-[

Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Frank on May 25, 2007, 08:27:08 PM
Paul Ysart Lizards are yummy and around the same cost as a Bamford (http://www.ysartglass.com/PaulYsart/Images/P2026.jpg) better picture coming to Scotland's Glass soon.
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Frank on May 25, 2007, 08:30:16 PM
But you can also get fun stuff PY ducks on a pond: (http://www.ysartglass.com/PaulYsart/Images/P2007.jpg)

Allan Scott: http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=1091&category_id=187&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: glasstrufflehunter on May 25, 2007, 08:49:34 PM
Now there are some really droolsome Deacons weights on this page. Man, if I had money to burn I'd be getting one of those fuschia weights! http://www.paperweightsplus.com/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/pwp?opendocument&part=5

Make sure you have a mop handy!
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Max on May 25, 2007, 08:51:54 PM
I'm really not sure about cute paperweights like the ducks.  Maybe they're something you get into after you've collected the more traditional patterns and need something new?  Angela had some fun paperweights at our stall at Gaydon, one with a penguin and another with...a snowman I think - I didn't like those ones either.  Ha.  For someone with virtually no paperweights, I'm very choosy, aren't I?  ::)

I look forward to seeing a bigger pic of the Ysart lizard weight.  :D
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: josordoni on May 25, 2007, 10:00:23 PM
I don't know, I just think the work coming from the contemporary lampworking US makers is wonderful,

Look at this Mayuel Ward butterfly...

http://www.sweetbriar.co.uk/weightlist.php?maker=Mayauel%20Ward
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: Anne on May 25, 2007, 10:07:25 PM
Now there are some really droolsome Deacons weights on this page. Man, if I had money to burn I'd be getting one of those fuschia weights! http://www.paperweightsplus.com/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/pwp?opendocument&part=5

Make sure you have a mop handy!

Mmmm lovely, all the flower ones on this page are gorgeous... and I don't collect paperweights either! but these are beautiful.
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: karelm on May 26, 2007, 04:07:42 AM
Hmm, not all that expensive!
The first one isnt, neither is the second, hell I havent yet bought an expensive weight!  BUT with 50 odd weights (of which I would classify about half as nice weights and about another 10 as intresting) and loads more on the "need to have" list it can get expensive ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: ALLAN on May 26, 2007, 08:19:08 AM
Hi,
   Sorry,just got round to reading this thread.To put things straight on the subject of the so called Chinese Caithness imports.We have never bought in weights from anywhere including China and if there is any Chinese weights with our labels on them then they must be fakes or someone is trying to con the collectors by putting labels on cheap weights for more profit.I would be most interested to see any pictures of the weights mentioned if anyone can supply some.
                      Allan
Title: Re: Lizard weight
Post by: RAINBOWGIRL on May 26, 2007, 01:43:07 PM
I rest my cas.