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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Cazza on June 23, 2012, 08:55:57 AM

Title: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Cazza on June 23, 2012, 08:55:57 AM
can anyone tell me is this the fleur pattern, i cannot find another like it. thanks

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/0/5/4/1/2/4/webimg/584089027_o.jpg (http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/0/5/4/1/2/4/webimg/584089027_o.jpg)
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: keith on June 23, 2012, 01:50:44 PM
Looks like Webb cameo fleur (pseudo-cameo)1930's I think ;D
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Cazza on June 23, 2012, 03:15:38 PM
Hi yes the mark on the base is 1935 i think, is there anywhere i can find others, i am trying to find out the value.
thanks
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Paul S. on June 23, 2012, 03:40:05 PM
very nice vase.         According to Hajdamach, Keith, he says these are wrongly called pseudo cameo -  the word Webb may well be in raised (relief) letters.       I wouldn't have thought there'd be a set value for something like this  -  more a case of what a collector is willing to pay at a specialist aution perhaps (or ebay).            You might try Fieldings the autioneers, they may well have sold cameo fleur in recent times.
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Cazza on June 23, 2012, 03:46:41 PM
Many thanks, bought locally at auction, where no-one else bid :-) not sure why they didn't its lovely.
I will take a look at fieldings.
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: keith on June 23, 2012, 06:21:55 PM
Shall have to read why,bit behind in my reading ::),
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: agincourt17 on June 23, 2012, 08:06:30 PM
There's an amber version currently on eBay (with lots of nice photos and a link to another similar) that may give some idea of the value
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130714485333?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

I'm sure I've seen one illustrated in an old Thomas Webb Dennis Hall Museum catalogue, and I'll post a photo and their description as soon as I can find it.
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: agincourt17 on June 23, 2012, 08:19:55 PM
Photo and description from Thomas Webb Museum Dennis Hall (printed about 1984):
10" "Pseudo-Cameo" glass Vase (Design No. 44565 - 1930). The vase has amber tulips against a stiippled crystal glass background.

[Mod: Image removed in accordance with Board Guidelines on Copyright Material (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,24434.msg136195.html#msg136195) ]
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: flying free on June 23, 2012, 08:49:53 PM
is this a case of them being done by Acid Etched method?  Hence being referred to as 'pseudo cameo' (i.e. not handcarved cameo?)
m
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Paul S. on June 23, 2012, 10:17:34 PM
it seems the original definition of the word cameo is linked to the shell carvings, and the great cameo artists did of course 'carve'.          Maybe the thinking is that......... provided you are 'cutting' back (to create a design) of one colour which has been overlaid completely on another, then you still end up with the same result, which is.............a design in relief (whether the process be dry or wet).           There are similar effects produced in gem stones, although that is a dry process.

It seems there were slightly varying methods of creating the final appearance of this 'pseudo cameo' effect.       If you look in Roger Dodsworth and Hajdamach, there are examples of both E. & L. and Richardson pieces, which are created using slightly different techniques.      Pieces from those factories also apparently carry the appropriate backstamps, and it's easy to see why these two factories made use of the process..............since they were both owned by Thomas Webb. 

I have a Celtic sort of design on a Webb plate, with blue cut back to a clear hammered finish, although I had never thought of it as pseudo cameo  -  I'll post a pic tomorrow. :)       
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: flying free on June 23, 2012, 10:28:47 PM
I think what I was thinking was.. perhaps it was accepted in the glass world at that time that if it wasn't carved then it wasn't consider 'real'cameo.  Perhaps that is why it was called 'pseudo cameo'? It's still cameo, it's just that the method of achieving the effect was not the 'pure' process of it being hand carved.
m
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Paul S. on June 23, 2012, 10:58:14 PM
I was only quoting Mr. Hajdamach.........who says of this Cameo Fleur........... "this is the range which is often wrongly called 'Pseudo-Cameo'.
I didn't write the book ;) ;)
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: flying free on June 23, 2012, 11:17:52 PM
I had a look and couldn't see there was an explanation as to why it was 'wrongly called 'pseudo cameo''.  Was it wrongly called that because there was another range/technique that really was called or referred to as 'pseudo cameo' and this range of Cameo Fleur was incorrectly referred to as it.  Or was it wrongly referred to as 'pseudo cameo' because it really is cameo and therefore not 'pseudo'. 
m
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: keith on June 24, 2012, 12:43:11 AM
Think it's just one of those words that got used without thinking,early (Woodall cameo etc..) was carved by hand but they also used hydrofluric acid 'cut-back' which was used in fleur cameo so I'm rambling and can't remember what I'm talking about,time I was in bed ::) ;D ;D The time above says 12:43 but it is 1:43,I'm really tired and now confused ;D
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Cazza on June 24, 2012, 06:42:02 AM
Thank you to everyone who has helped, looks like I got a bargain then.
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: KevinH on June 24, 2012, 08:09:09 PM
Cazza, does yours have a "Webb" mark as part of the design? If not, it could just as easily be Richardson.

As for "values" of these, 15 years ago, they could be bought at UK fairs for around 200-300, but for some reason they gained in interest and 600 was sometimes asked. I saw one at that high price and as soon as I was seen looking at it, the dealer immediately offered it to me for 300. I did not buy it.

I do, however, have an example marked "Webb" which is not so tall, has a wide rim and has what I think is Tulip decoration.
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Cazza on June 24, 2012, 09:43:14 PM
Hi Kevin
Yes its got the Webb mark like those for sale only its on the foot of the vase, it is a clear mark no colour in it and its 9 1/2" high  and also has the made in england Webb mark in the center of the base.
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: KevinH on June 24, 2012, 10:52:04 PM
Ok  :)
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Cazza on July 14, 2012, 09:25:55 AM
Fieldings valued 300 - 500 in good condition.
Am a very happy bunny
Many thanks
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: glassobsessed on July 14, 2012, 03:33:52 PM
By coincidence I remembered to photograph this one today in a local antiques centre, the snaps are not the best as the vase is in a cabinet and the lighting is not good.

John
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: KevinH on July 14, 2012, 04:01:25 PM
Current auction estimate of 300-500; dealer ticket with what looks like 645.

Maybe it's time I thought about selling my example!
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: glassobsessed on July 14, 2012, 06:58:47 PM
I think it is 645 but it has been on display there for a couple of years and no takers yet.  :-X

John
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: nigel benson on July 16, 2012, 05:21:46 PM
Hello,

Just waded through this thread. Prices for these vases reach a high point arounfd the time of the Parkington sales in October '97 and April '98. Glass dealers have, in the main, never managed to achieve prices that were asked and occasionally received by non-glass dealers.

The explanation for this is likely to be related to the different clientel; collectors generally know the correct price range - others do not. It also relates similarly with decanters that have silver collars, etc., putting the item into a different type of market, ie. Objects d'art, rather than purely a collectable decanter that happens to have a bit of silver on it.

Despite Fielding's bullish estimate it would be more accurate to look in the price range 200-400 IMHO. Still good, but somewhat more realistic, especially in the current market.

The dealer who has 645.00 on the ticket and who has had it for a couple of years is quite a tryer bucking the trend like that :o ::)

As for psuedo-cameo, this was the phrase used to refer to this type of glass ware when I first entered dealing 26 years ago. It has taken all this time, despite intervenning knowledge to correct. I suggest that it came about through someone latterly using the term and it catching on with collectors and dealers, and the mistake snowballed. Actually, I don't think it really matters how it arose, rather that we now use the right terminology.

Cheers, Nigel
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Paul S. on August 17, 2012, 03:31:45 PM
have just noticed that there is a very nice green over clear 'lily' example (of a vase), showing on page 43 in H. W. Woodward's  'Art, Feat and Mystery', first published in 1978.     Woodward gives a very brief history of Webb's acid etched work, and he seems to be saying that the factory turned to 'pseudo-cameo' (his words), in order to maintain the acid etching department, which was flagging somewhat in view of the down turn in demand for etched work in general.
During the 1930's blown work in 'tulip' and 'lily' pattern moulds were produced using hydrofluoric acid - apparently the etching department closed towards the end of the '30's - so not a long period of manufacture perhaps for these pieces.
Presumably Woodward was simply making a distinction between the dry process of real cameo and these later acid method examples, and maybe he just hit on the expression 'pseudo-cameo'.           Do we think he was the first to use this expression?
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: KevinH on August 17, 2012, 10:44:03 PM
Quote
Presumably Woodward was simply making a distinction between the dry process of real cameo and these later acid method examples, and maybe he just hit on the expression 'pseudo-cameo'. Do we think he was the first to use this expression?

The term "pseudo-cameo" was used in the American Collectible Glass - Book 4 - British Glass. My copy is a second printing 1978 but showing a copyright date of 1968. The copyright owner is stated as: Theodore C. and Viola V. Lagerberg, who, I suppose, were the authors of the book but who produced it by photographing items in Cyril Manley's collection and "working out captions" in conjunction with Manley.

So maybe Manley or the Lagerbergs, mid-60s, was / were the first to spread the term widely?
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Paul S. on August 18, 2012, 10:52:18 AM
In fact if you read Manley (page 22 - column 2), it would seem almost as though he is speaking of an entirely different product when he uses the term 'psuedo-cameo' - he describes part of the decoration as being 'beautifully enameled', and goes on to say that he consider their origin to have been French.         His use of the term was perhaps far broader than we are speaking of here  -  which is solely in regard to the Webb's acid cut 'tulip' and lily' pieces - and it looks as though he used the term rather generally to describe all acid cut only work.
Having said that, Manley's book does include a vase in Webb's 'tulip' pseudo-cameo (in yellow) -  and he says, of the many he had seen, that they all appeared to resemble the one shown (a tulip example) - so may be he had never seen a 'lily' version.      He also comments that they were not made after 1936.

regret I don't have the Lagerberg's book - so I'll be patriotic and plump for Manley as originator ;)

       
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: flying free on October 10, 2012, 11:45:59 PM
In fact if you read Manley (page 22 - column 2), it would seem almost as though he is speaking of an entirely different product when he uses the term 'psuedo-cameo' - he describes part of the decoration as being 'beautifully enameled', and goes on to say that he consider their origin to have been French.

Paul, I don't have the Manley book you are quoting from.  Is he talking here about Webb specifically?  or is he discussing generally about 'pseudo cameo' pieces?  because I have an acid cut one layer cameo vase that is French and the raised design that is left is enamelled on top so it looks like layered cameo but it isn't - it's one colour acid cut back with enamel on the 'raised picture' left on the vase - or at least I think it is  :-\
m
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: Paul S. on October 11, 2012, 09:42:36 AM
hello m.......from experience, it's not always easy to convey the text meaning without quoting verbatim - and for copyright reasons this is something we're not allowed to do, apparently.           I have a spare copy of Manley, and if you remind me of your address (off Board), I can post this to you and you can read his comments for yourself.      The book will cost you a fiver plus p&p  -  the down side being that whilst the contents are as new, the front board has broken away almost entirely at the front hinge, and the rear one is starting to go - something like masking tape should prevent any further deterioration.       Show it some TLC and avoid throwing it at the cat, and it should last a long time - plus it does have the dj. :)
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: flying free on October 11, 2012, 09:55:28 AM
thanks :) I will email you. 
m
Title: Re: thos webb cameo vase pattern id please?
Post by: nigel benson on October 11, 2012, 11:06:06 AM
I have quoted directly from books on these boards over the years.

As far as I'm aware when quoting from a book (as long as it's not a huge section) all is OK provided you quote the title, author, publisher, and date.

Nigel

PS. m, bear in mind Manley's tendancy to make assumptions, and the later disproving of some of his thoughts and attributions when reading the book. It's good, but probably now best used as a pointer. N.