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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on November 24, 2012, 12:40:37 AM

Title: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on November 24, 2012, 12:40:37 AM
described as chips on all fish and on bottom of fish .  Pics were v difficult to view clearly but it looked pretty.
When it arrived I immediately realised the 'chips on the bottom of all the fish' actually were enormous great big chunks out of the bottom 1cm of every fish i.e. their tails that the bowl should stand on, was missing. The bowl rests now on the ribbed base and polished pontil mark of the bowl.
Anyway, here it is.  Apparently Moser according to sellers listing.

I can't find a match for the insects (of course  ::) )  There is a pic in Gulliver's Victorian Decorative Glass page 171 of a bowl I think is by the same maker but no id for it - different gilding as it is gold flowers on that one and they look to have that raised surround and then infilled, and the fish don't seem to have the enamel mouths on that one.  Otherwise seems to be the same maker.
It's approx 3 3/4" diameter, square, ribbed, 12 ribs same as the one in Gulliver's.  The fish have orangish enamelled lines around their mouths and are gilded with inset ruby glass eyes.  Pretty but would have been prettier with feet.
Does anyone have a match to the butterflies and bee please?
thanks
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: keith on November 24, 2012, 01:10:59 AM
That's some bowl :o,with or without feet,I'll look through my books but I think I'd have remembered something like that,another great find. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on November 24, 2012, 01:18:07 AM
thanks :) yes it's really pretty - or would have been.  I can live with the chips on the fins, but the missing feet is not a great look  >:(
and paid a lot for it as well.  Fingers burnt on this one.
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: TxSilver on November 24, 2012, 03:18:25 AM
I had a bowl very much like yours. The pictures may make you feel better about your bowl. I think they are fairly old. When I bought the bowl I thought it was probably Murano. However, I changed my mind after doing some research. I believe the bowl is Bohemian (maybe Harrach) or made by an old English company -- I forget which now. Your bowl makes me favor Harrach or a similar company.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: Mosquito on November 24, 2012, 05:37:25 AM
Hi M,

I think your piece is English, I've seen similar pieces attributed to Webb; however, Walsh Walsh is also a strong possibility.

An 1883 advert of theirs reproduced in Barbara Morris's Victorian Table Glass & Ornaments shows pieces with the same three-sided form and with very similar applied fish.

See here for a thread on a similar item: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37302.msg204164.html#msg204164

Steven  :)
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on November 26, 2012, 03:21:58 PM
Hi all, sorry for the delay in replying but I was trying to get some time to check out the possibles  :)
Anita, Steven, you make me feel better about my fish feet  ;D   I suppose whilst I do buy damaged glass, this was just not what I was expecting.. you know how it is, small chips turn into great big chunks and it's disappointing.  I do have the odd very old piece that isn't damaged, one in particular a Stuart vase with applied raspberries and trails etc  and I guess I compare everything to that.

Steven, I had another look at the Gulliver's book and thanks for the further reference and links :)  Mine isn't triangular but square, I can definitely see the similarity between the Walsh fish and the other pieces though.  However mine also is enamelled in madder red around the mouth of the fish, which none of them in the book are irritatingly.  Anita, my instinct was English on this one, mainly because of the flat gilding/enamelling, but I will broaden my search again to look at English and Bohemian makers.

Thank you all for your suggestions and help - much appreciated.
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on November 29, 2012, 06:33:54 PM
Anita it seems you maybe right.
A very similar bowl here identified as Harrach
http://www.madforglass.es/Harrach/Harrach175.html
This one is triangular with the red eyes that look to be the same as mine and the applied fish with the mouths in a similar position to mine, all gilded, as well as butterflies.   
I hate to keep questioning previous research and id's but Steven what do you think as to the triangular ones maybe being Harrach not Walsh ?  or is that Walsh id a definitive id please?  or perhaps it's just a coincidence they are so similar?

On the other hand, I've gone back to the thread you linked to, to the original post here below, and I knew I had seen somewhere fish with enamelled mouths like the ones on my vase and this one I think has enamel around the  mouth - it seems to be the only one where the fish have that.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37302.msg204119.html#msg204119

grrr, it's irritating when something that should be so distinctive, appears to possibly come from so many sources.

and thanks every one for your help :)
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: TxSilver on November 29, 2012, 07:21:34 PM
m, I ran into the same problems when trying to ID my white bowl. My last result was "probably Bohemian or English." That was the limit of my uncertain certainty.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on November 29, 2012, 10:56:40 PM
oh thanks Anita though as seeing all the different examples is quite wonderful I have to say.
 It's a minefield out there
The one on another thread on here,  that has the same applied red eyes as mine and the enamelling around the mouth, but is different in that it has two feet each side of the bowl and  two 'lizards' rather than fish at the ends of the bowl (bowl is oval) and is coloured glass over silver leaf on the body, seems to have been id'd as Stevens and Williams on page 61 of Manley's Decorative Victorian Glass according to this

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37302.msg204119.html#msg204119

those eyes and the enamelling round the mouth are very similar if not exactly the same as on my bowl, so I query now whether I should be investigating STevens and Williams for the maker.
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on January 28, 2013, 11:50:00 AM
this one is square, described as white opalescent, has a trailed amber glass rim and four amber glass lizards like mine at each corner, no trailed red mouth to them, height 9.7cm diameter 13.1cm
identified as  by Richardson  c 1885
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST59/
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: azelismia on January 28, 2013, 02:21:31 PM
I would pretty much write off any information in the Manley book. it's really really not accurate. Some things are correct many more things aren't. It's a mine field.

I would go with either Webb or Harrach for these. There is strong evidence for both of those companies.

and again you really can't identify glass based on style of decoration alone. it's very unreliable.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 28, 2013, 02:30:05 PM
It's utterly fabulous and glorious and gorgeous!
Have you asked for a rebate, based on the inaccurate description and not-exactly-honestly representative images?
You should make it clear that you (and by inference, everybody else) would not have bid so high if the true nature of the damage had been honestly described.
I really dislike this sort of sneakiness in a seller. You may not get too far, given it seems dishonesty is already present.  :'(
But it's worth giving it a go.  >:(
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on January 28, 2013, 03:33:55 PM
 thanks Sue :)
I bought it quite a few months ago now and did send an email to the seller telling them I was less than pleased with the severity of the damage.
Azelismia, I don't have Manley's book so I can't comment.  Whilst I know there have been misattributions come to light regarding information in the book, I think it has to be balanced with the fact the book was written so many years ago. The internet has become much more widely accessible and information that was never previously known about has come to light in the meantime.  I'm sure there are many things that are correct in the book as well, so it's probably one that should be on my shelf really, although it's always wise to double check information anyway unless it comes from an identified and referenced pattern.

Thanks for your thoughts on Webb or Harrach.  What is the evidence for these companies? 
The one at the Dudley Museum website is id'd as Richardson so I will try and look further into that source as well as Steven's reference of Walsh Walsh.

m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on January 28, 2013, 07:42:04 PM
Sorry, I phrased that badly :)
I meant to ask if you have a reference for those please?
thanks
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on June 05, 2013, 05:23:59 PM
I happened upon this lovely piece of glass today, identified as a 'Thomas Webb animal ewer'.  It's the third item down if you scroll down -
http://www.edgeconservation-restoration.com/File/category.asp?id=6

What struck me was the red enamel around the mouth and on the claws on it's feet, very similar to the enamel around the mouths of each of the fish on my bowl.
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: keith on June 05, 2013, 06:38:16 PM
That's a bit weird,would be surprised if it was Webbs, ;D
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on June 05, 2013, 07:23:12 PM
that's what I thought, but do you have British Glass 1800-1914 Charles Hajdamach?
Have a look on page 321, 4th from left, jug with applied lizard handle  :o Also page 435 small drawing Webb's design number 11895 dated 1879.

Another shock was the design drawing on page 435 design 25929 dated 1901- I've been looking at these recently and that is so close to a piece designed by Carder for Steuben iirc.  I've not double checked yet but the similarity is remarkable.

m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on June 05, 2013, 07:52:38 PM
and adding to my post directly above this, I've now just had a moment and looked at that jug under a magnifying glass - the applied lizard handle id'd as Webb, is enamelled in a similar vein to the lamp I linked to above and guess what? it has an enamelled madder red around it's mouth and it's eyes are white with red glass ruby thingy's in like my fish!  :o  maybe my fish is Thomas Webb?
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on June 05, 2013, 09:49:41 PM
according to the book the painted and gilded decoration is by Jules Barbe.
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on June 06, 2013, 09:01:57 AM
Just doing some more investigating on the enamel decoration on those two pieces and my butterflies to see if there can be any matches, so I'm going to add as I find :)
I've added some close ups of the detail of the fish- enamelling can look awful when photographed so closely - I would say the quality of the enamelling on my bowl is outstanding.  The fish have sponged gilt on them as well as the white eyes with ruby centres and the enamelled mouths.

http://www.lauderandhoward.com.au/shop/view/a_thomas_webb_vase/157
this is id'd as a Thomas Webb vase with an rd number.  If you click on the close ups it has coloured dot enamel decoration.
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on June 06, 2013, 03:27:32 PM
For further comparison to the 'Thomas Webb animal ewer' I linked to above, in Gulliver's Victorian Decorative Glass page 271 there are registered design drawings and references for Thomas Webb.  Top left of the page is a Bird shaped ewer or jug rd no 337071 July 10 1879.  It has designs of enamelling on it and appears to be to be very similar to the 'animal ewer', especially having the scales decoration on it.  It also has a 'starfish' style design on the wing which reminds me sort of the eye of the ewer and the circular motif on the body.  The eye of the bird is also very decorative like the eye of the ewer.
http://www.edgeconservation-restoration.com/File/category.asp?id=6

In addition I've found another id'd Thomas Webb small vase in Gulliver's page 168 under the heading Stylised fish/reptile motifs.  It has an enamelled butterfly on it and flowers all in raised colourful enamels outlined in gilt rd no 390104.  It seems to be a simpler version of the enamelling on the ewer and also has the applied 'fish' or what he calls seals, as it's three feet.

m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on June 17, 2014, 11:19:02 PM
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/125095-dhumy-aurora-glass-co-fish-vase-c-188?in=441

?? Really? I'm afraid I don't believe this.
Can anyone show evidence for this please?
Many thanks
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 18, 2014, 06:32:38 AM
This was posted on Facebook too and I was dubious, though I didn't comment. The attributions of a certain South West museum are not the best.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: glassobsessed on June 18, 2014, 07:07:17 AM
I have noticed that too, more of a commercial operation than a museum.

John
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: brucebanner on June 27, 2014, 06:56:53 PM
There is a similar one of these in a museum exhibit at Broad field House, i saw today, same fish, same size, but no decoration. the description said "Hodgetts Richardson and Son 1878"
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on June 27, 2014, 08:01:27 PM
Thank you for keeping an eye out for me and remembering :)
Was it this one by any chance?
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST59/
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: brucebanner on June 27, 2014, 08:12:22 PM
It could be, but the fish were more green than amber and the bowl was white but the glass had lots of patchy colours in it, i'll pop back in next week and take a close up, the picture in the link lacks detail.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on July 02, 2014, 11:18:56 PM
Thank you :) I appreciate it as my hopes of visiting in the near future are fading  ::)
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: brucebanner on July 04, 2014, 12:12:14 PM
Here is the one in the glass museum, i have permission to put this on here from them, (i had to fill out a form), it's roughly 4 1/2 inches square and in height.

This is the best i could get it being behind glass.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: brucebanner on July 04, 2014, 12:14:07 PM
Some more pics.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on July 04, 2014, 03:31:48 PM
Fab pics - thanks so much! :-*
It is the same bowl as the one in my link... however your pictures are fantastic!  You can see from the description I linked to that they do not mention the bowl is optically ribbed for example,whereas one of your pictures shows this clearly  :)

Sometimes knowing something such as the bowl is ribbed (and how many) can help towards id'ing other pieces - it's a tiny bit  irritating that the description on the web isn't complete really (although I am grateful just to have the pictures at all, no mean feat getting that collection photographed and uploaded).
Thanks again - I really really appreciate it.
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: brucebanner on July 04, 2014, 08:34:09 PM
It's the least i could do you all help me out so much.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: brucebanner on April 24, 2015, 02:06:12 PM
My new fish bowl (with feet). It's a monster weighing in at  2.7kg.

11 inches in length and 7 inches in height.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on April 24, 2015, 03:35:42 PM
Couldn't say for definite but my instinct would say Walsh Walsh.
Very similar to th ebowl on page 172 Victorian Decorative Glass, Gulliver.
Also has similarities with an unidentified epergne on page 195 of the same book.  Again that epergne makes me think Walsh Walsh but there is no id for it.
m
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: brucebanner on April 24, 2015, 05:46:04 PM
That book is worth every penny and more to anyone with an interest in Victorian glass.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 24, 2015, 08:13:07 PM
Chris's is definitely Walsh Walsh. The colour is Electric Blue. A variant is shown in the advert on page 41 of the Crystal Years. The interior may be uranium; it certainly is for Crushed Strawberry. What is a little deceptive in the ad is that the trim is shown in white; that may be an artefact of the drawing or a variant
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: brucebanner on April 25, 2015, 04:13:30 PM
Thanks for that i can see it now in the glass of John Walsh Walsh like you say on page 41 with three legs, it's not uranium on the inside.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: Lustrousstone on April 25, 2015, 04:16:28 PM
That's good, now I don't have to lust after one LOL
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: brucebanner on August 29, 2016, 07:41:56 PM
Thought of this when i picked this up which was in mint condition until i caught it on the corner of another piece of heavy glass, broken in half, now it's hanging on by a thread and uv glue.

That sinking feeling when you break something never gets any easier.

All in decorative glass book on the same page must be English and by the same maker.
Title: Re: Bowl with gilded & silvered insects,applied fish feet,ruby glass eyes
Post by: flying free on August 30, 2016, 02:24:54 PM
oh I bet you could have cried!  I'm so sorry that's happened.
Thanks for sharing it though.  I think these are probably English but still haven't worked out a way of sorting them out as I think they perhaps were made by different makers - S&W, Walsh and Webb's amongst them.

Still not worked out who gilded my vase though am suspecting Webb's and Jules Barbe possibly.
m