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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Murano & Italy Glass => Topic started by: antiquerose123 on October 07, 2011, 12:34:25 PM

Title: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: antiquerose123 on October 07, 2011, 12:34:25 PM
 :hi: there:

Just bought this item, and pretty sure if is Fratelli Toso.    Kinda  Funky Colors there?  Size is about 11.25 inches x 9.5 inches x 4 inches high.  Weighs a ton.  I forget what was said about the direction that the swirls go, as to the maker?   What was that again?  Also has swirls of aventurine in it.

Thanks, any views on this.  :kissy:



 :wsh: to run, and get some  :sm:       :spls:  <...cough, cough....>
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: TxSilver on October 07, 2011, 01:08:52 PM
WooHoo! It is apparenza. Apparenza is like a very colorful starry nights. It is one of my favorite decors by Fratelli Toso. Super nice.
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: antiquerose123 on October 07, 2011, 01:36:43 PM
WooHoo! It is apparenza. Apparenza is like a very colorful starry nights. It is one of my favorite decors by Fratelli Toso. Super nice.

Thanks Anita  :kissy:

I kinda thought it reminded me of starry night, but oh-so colorful!!  It is Bright!!  (http://serve.mysmiley.net/characters/character0011.gif)

Now I know this was Fratelli Toso (as it has a mint  :thup: ) label on it.......and there was a *reason* why I did not post the base right away, as there are 2 polished pontils  :o :o on the bottom of this.  Yup,  you heard me right!!  As least the Foil label is MINT

:thud:

I am sure that this was done at the same time, at the factory. I am drawing (maybe) some reasons as to why the base might be this way (just in My own opinion) and not sure if that is possible, or not.  The second one looks like it was made the same time as the other one, IMHO.

What are your views on this?  It is a shocker!!! 

I assume most would say it had a chip or something and was ground out......but I am not so sure of that yet...
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: TxSilver on October 07, 2011, 02:23:48 PM
Rose, the polished recession on the rim looks like where a chip or blemish was polished out to me. Methinks it would have been better to leave the chip. Maybe some other people will have an idea about the second polishing. There would be no reason to have two pontil scars.
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: antiquerose123 on October 07, 2011, 02:54:28 PM
Rose, the polished recession on the rim looks like where a chip or blemish was polished out to me. Methinks it would have been better to leave the chip. Maybe some other people will have an idea about the second polishing. There would be no reason to have two pontil scars.

Hi TxSilver

That was the first thing I thought of too.....but there is more.  On two of the opposite edges they have been ground down.  The other two edges are mint.  Funny how that would happen that 2 edges get ground down that are across from each other, but the other edges do not have a scratch at all on them.  Those other 2 edges are Mint from the day it was made.  So that is why I am still drawing a ??? here. 

So a chip on the bottom to be ground out, then 2 opposite sides are ground down some....and the other edges are fine. 

I just am a bit suspect yet.......which I know everyone will think I am Nuts  :ho:
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: TxSilver on October 07, 2011, 03:05:49 PM
Rosie, you bought a damaged piece that should have looked like this: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=123491034381525&set=a.123488037715158.18972.122210524509576&type=3&theater. (I have a new computer and don't have my photos in yet. I hope the Facebook photo shows up right. If not, I'll put the picture in later.) The shape looks like what yours would have been.

Your bowl IMO has giveaway value only. I hope you can work things out with the seller.
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: antiquerose123 on October 07, 2011, 03:22:25 PM
Hi Anita:

Thanks for the Pic, I see what you mean -- it might be really damaged.  But what I was getting at here too, and WHY I am suspect of the extra grind on the bottom.  As this is even made real Sloppy.  Now the Seller *would* not have anything to do with that.  The reason I state this as I have never seen such sloppy work even on the inside of the bowl by the maker.  I know there was a post somewhere that you too was surprised to see such sloppy work one time.  That is why I thought this might interest you

So my first instincts were it was fixed chips, or cracks plus the extra grind on the bottom.  Now see these folds, and flaps on the inside of the Bowl that the *seller* would have *nothing* to do with that.  That would have been done the day it was made.  There are several like folds in the bowl.  Very sloppy made .....like it was the day after New Years....  :cheers: and one was hung-over.

The also near the bottom when you get the right light -- there is some waves in the bowl too.  These are NOT scratches, as I tried to get as good as pic as I could.  These are right in the glass.  Again, this is something that the *seller* would not/could not have done.

See these other pics --- the colors are nice, but the workmanship is really sloppy.  I have never seen something by FT with so much sloppiness ??? in it.  Was it the first day on the job......I doubt that!!

Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: TxSilver on October 07, 2011, 03:33:04 PM
You just have a damaged bowl with multiple repairs. One side was probably broken, then the other side handled the same way to achieve balance. If there was something this traumatic happen to it, the inside of the bowl could have also had some shock and had additional shock when the bottom rim was ground out. It is a good bowl to return or set aside. I hope you can return it. I'm sorry that someone sold something that should have been given away.
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: antiquerose123 on October 07, 2011, 03:54:20 PM
Thanks Anita.....but the things are not cracks on the inside, they are like formed folds.  Like when it was made.

So when I saw these inside folds, I thought "Where was Quality Control on this piece at the Shop?  As I know there is bound to be imperfects in glass, but not something this sloppy on the inside.  IMO, they are from the day it was made.

So I was just wondering with this piece (and it is worth the discussion) that didn't the Murano glass makers have a Quality control?  Would not somebody be checking even the inside of the bowl, or IF this damage happened right then when they were making it (the folds, and the 2 ends) that is it not possible that this could happen.  I know we do not want to think that, but lets face it.  These were people making glass, so is bound to be misfits even for them.  Look at the Coin World that is stamped by machines and they still *ends up in circulation misfit printed coins*.  So that was what I was thinking here.  This might be a misfit that was made at the shop, then was altered to fix it up.......and maybe......just maybe, the second grind on the bottom was put there that this is not sell-able, so they put that extra grind in it -- to make sure it does not get past Quality control.

Maybe then they re-break the glass, and re-use it................or maybe somebody just decided to take it home anyways at as a misfit, and free of Charge.

I know I am stretching things here, but that is why I will keep it anyways....and it made me stop and think that in almost every thing made in the world by man, or machine --- there are bound to be misfits that somehow *still* get into circulation.

Of course, I can NOT say this is one, or this is what happened...................but, is it not possible that this could.

I was on a site the other day too about Coke bottle that had flaws in them, and somehow they managed to get into circulation.....because took it home from work years ago.

So that is what I wanted to bring it up here.  I know we know they are master Glass-makers, but there also has to be misfits made there that (like anything else) somehow got into circulation.

I just wanted members to stop and just think IF this is possible..............and is there any possible misfits out there like in the coin world.  As I just think that sometimes even back then...even if a piece was bad, and could not be sold..........is it not possible a maker, or AN apprentice/labor was given it Free just to have, and take it home....or even for one to practice there polishing skills on (or to play with at work) then took it home.

I am jumping the bridge here a bit -- but I think it worthy to think that "that could also happen."

Is it possible that some glass was never fixed by a Seller, but rather was altered or tried to fix at the glass shop....and then just someone kept it as a freebie, and then through the years (with deaths) it ended up in the market.

Just something worthy to think/discuss about -- as we know there are misfits made with everything, and just have never talked about IF this could happen there.  Far stretch, I know.....but it had to happen a few times....



i be right back, just gotta make some more  :t: here!!
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: TxSilver on October 07, 2011, 04:09:28 PM
Rosie, if a piece of glass is broken in a company like Fratelli Toso, it is tossed out. Higher production companies had several people working and I'm sure their cooling ovens were full. I can't feel the folds in your glass. They may have been there when the bowl was made. Bowls often have imperfections on the inside. Bowls can also have some imperfections created by the heat of grinding. I had a plate with a ground bottom that had a wave with broken filigree over the place where the grounding was done. I would say don't worry about it. If you would like to keep it to enjoy the colors, it is pretty still. Apparenza is a wonderful pattern.
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: antiquerose123 on October 07, 2011, 04:30:06 PM
Thanks Anita......

Yeah, I still like it and the wonderful colors!!   Also the fact that as least  :24: :24: the label is in such good condition.  This item just made me think about what did they do for Quality control there.....and I am sure that someone once in a while was given an item free, or to have in the family.  Not saying this is what happened to this item -- but it just made me think about it.  It was a topic I could not find any info on the net about.

I still like it, and will keep it.   :) I had some pretty good luck with other things I have found via the net (Eg, The set of working Murano Lamps, now that was a STEAL) so sometimes "Life will throw you a lemon -- but make Lemonade."  That is the attitude I will take with this item, as I have scored on some other items.  I still like it, and sometimes there are deals to be found (which I have) ......and then there is not.

I still like it, and will keep it.  I might just ask the seller if she would return some money back.  That is all I can do -- but if not, then so be it. 

That is life.  It balances out.  With Sunny days, some Rain must fall too.

I am OK with it!!   ;)

Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: angel2 on October 11, 2011, 09:33:54 AM
 :angel: :angel:
 
 :hi: Rose: I absolutely agree with 'Life will throw you a lemon -- but make Lemonade' and 'With Sunny days, some rain must fall too'. That's a pretty good philosophy to live by. Your bowl is very, very pretty, whatever the reason for its 'peculiarities'. Beauty, as it's said, is in the eye of the beholder and THAT is its true value. It's also true with buying AND selling that some you win, some you lose. You just have to make certain that you mostly, if not virtually always, win!!! BUT I hope you made sure to get a part refund  ....   we're not fools!!!!    :X:

angel2
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: antiquerose123 on October 12, 2011, 02:18:43 AM
:angel: :angel:
 
 :hi: Rose: I absolutely agree with 'Life will throw you a lemon -- but make Lemonade' and 'With Sunny days, some rain must fall too'. That's a pretty good philosophy to live by. Your bowl is very, very pretty, whatever the reason for its 'peculiarities'. Beauty, as it's said, is in the eye of the beholder and THAT is its true value. It's also true with buying AND selling that some you win, some you lose. You just have to make certain that you mostly, if not virtually always, win!!! BUT I hope you made sure to get a part refund  ....   we're not fools!!!!    :X:

angel2

Thanks.....

They did offer my my money back and I could return the item.  BUT I am thinking that they are going to try to *resell* the item to another.  So I told them that is not right.  [ I think they will try to resell as I know they had others interested in it besides me ] So I said that I would not return it to be re-sold .....but was asking for half my money back.

They would not go for that.....so whatever.

Their words -- One moment they thought that was normal pontil mark on the bottom (2 of them ???) and start telling me all about Pontil marks and Murano glass.  So I sent them a email saying "Gee, why suddenly you know so much about Glass, pontil marks in your defense -- but then do not mention it."  I honestly thought it was a *reflection* in the photos, as we see those all the times.  Guess I should have asked IF it was a reflection?  Stupid me.

Anyways, I will not return the item to be re-sold to another......and it looks like they will not give me half my money back.  So be it.  I let them know what I thought of them, and told them I had a conscience that "this item should not be re-sold at all."

IF I have to suck up the cost of this item --- to save another glass person from buying this item if they try to re-sell  --- So Be it.  I will suck it up to save another Glassie from buying this item!!

At least I have a conscience.....

Yes in Life  -- Some Rain must fall (  ...  but I gave them some *thunderous Words* ..... ) (http://serve.mysmiley.net/mad/mad0064.gif)    (http://serve.mysmiley.net/sign/sign0109.gif)

 :24: :thup:
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: TxSilver on October 12, 2011, 02:25:58 AM
Rose, you are a bigger person than I. The bowl would have been in the mail as soon as she said "I'll give a refund."
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: antiquerose123 on October 12, 2011, 02:39:25 AM
Rose, you are a bigger person than I. The bowl would have been in the mail as soon as she said "I'll give a refund."

 :24: :24:  but I still kinda like it, and it *may* be the only one I find --- plus it does have a mint label on it......but also I think they are going to re-sell it, and I could NOT let them do that. 

So the buck stop here on this item.   

Plus, who knows IF I sent the item back, that they would *really* refund my money......then I would have a much larger fight.....then I would have be more P'O, as I would have gotten screwed twice by them.  It was not Ebay, so I did not have any protection either in making sure they gave me my money back.

So I will suck it up.  This item will never be sold to another.  I know I have *scored* on other pieces (like the pair of working Pink Murano lamps for only $100 total with shipping) so I will suck this one up.

Life lesson to me..... :spls: :24:  and sometimes need that to *knock* us back into reality  :-\
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: angel2 on October 12, 2011, 08:13:48 AM
 :angel: :angel:

 :hiclp:

angel2
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: kane_u_pain on October 12, 2011, 09:04:45 AM
Sorry...I didn't read all of this due to the excessive words and a long day. But from the pics, I think the damage is from the cooling down process of the glass and the blemishes were polished as best as they could be. Absolutely nothing wrong with the bowl in my opinion as with the hand made nature of glass, there is imperfections in every piece if you look hard enough.

To be honest, I highly doubt the person who owned this would have got these blemishes polished out or fixed due to the expense of it. It would have cost more than the bowl itself.

It is a decent example with a perfect label. The label itself adds value in my opinion. As I have seen, labels can add a good 25% to the value of the glass.

It is a good useful bowl in my opinion with a good resale value...even if you just make your money back...

I think we tend to forget as glassies is...we do it for the love of the glass or piece...not for the resale value. We should be happy if we make our money back when we decide to sell. To enjoy a piece for a for years and then sell it on to another glass lover, should be more reward in itself than making a 50% profit...

But then again...money talks more for most people than the love and joy of owning something that makes you smile when you see it...

-My 2 cents... :phew:

Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: TxSilver on October 12, 2011, 12:57:13 PM
Kane, it is a damaged bowl that has had an attempted repair. Fratelli Toso did certain designs. This one would have looked like the link I showed. I have my files in the computer now, so I can add the picture here, too. The pattern is still pretty, but the bowl is definitely damaged.
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: antiquerose123 on October 13, 2011, 03:10:10 AM
Kane, it is a damaged bowl that has had an attempted repair. Fratelli Toso did certain designs. This one would have looked like the link I showed. I have my files in the computer now, so I can add the picture here, too. The pattern is still pretty, but the bowl is definitely damaged.

lol.....damaged is not the word!!

...but I will keep.  Nothing can say they would even send back my money, in all reality.  So I have no protection as it was not from Ebay.  Think about it, they could be selling, and selling this item to people......then offer the money back.  You sent the item back -- but never get your $$$.  Who knows, that could be the *Next Scam* by sellers.   That is why I wanted only a partital refund back.  They can not re-sell the item.....and I might have just stopped them in their tracks.

Funny, when I told them I would not send the item back and only wanted a partial refund on this item.  Then they sent me an email  *telling* me I could NOT tell them what to do with their bowl........................  I *reminded* them -- it was MY bowl NOW!!!!  >:D >:D

I still like the bowl, as I may never find another.....and at least the label is Mint.   :thud:
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: soledivo on October 13, 2011, 07:21:31 AM
thanks for posting this Rose, an interesting subject,
if Anita hadn't shown the the other pics I would have been fooled as a buyer,
 except for the double pontil, that would have been a no for me.
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: antiquerose123 on October 13, 2011, 05:59:36 PM
thanks for posting this Rose, an interesting subject,
if Anita hadn't shown the the other pics I would have been fooled as a buyer,
 except for the double pontil, that would have been a no for me.

Hi there:

Yes, I would have had no idea either.  Again, I thought  :ho: the bottom was a reflection of some sorts.  So lesson to all......never *Assume*.  Ask, Ask, Ask.....

I thought it might have been fixed some, but due to Anita pics -- I never realized just how much.  :thud:  I am Glad that Anita had that pic because we see a lot of certain designs of Murano on here for certain items........but I have never seen that bowl at all.  So I had no idea.  Even after Anita has posted her pics to us -- I have NOT found another pic like that on the Net either.  So Thank you Anita for your image, and well kept image records!!

I had no idea what the shape of the bowl *was* at one time.


So You Win sometimes, you lose sometimes....Life!!
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: kane_u_pain on October 14, 2011, 09:11:31 AM
Okay...i am off to get my eyes tested and to see if I need new glasses....besides the base issue I only see some stress fractures... :pb:

Will leave my post to the ramblings of a mad man... :t:
Title: Re: Starry Night meets Chop Suey ??
Post by: TxSilver on October 14, 2011, 01:50:51 PM
kane, you are quite right. I sell glass, so I do look at it differently than a collector would. Selling it tends to make us harsh on damage, since even a little damage usually means that it won't sell. It is a pretty bowl. Since Rose is a collector, it will be very nice for her.

There are many people in the USA that have the instruments they need for grounding and polishing glass. I used to have one person who would buy the mildly damaged glass and polish out the damage. He was a collector. I never saw his work, since he didn't resell, so I don't know how good it was. I do see attempts at repairs very often on Murano glass birds. The repairs usually end up looking worse than the original damage, most likely. Most people don't have the expertise to finish the glass correctly, so the glass ends up looking filed, with unpolished flat places that should be round and shiny. The rim of Rose's bowl is a good example of the look of glass that has been ground down.

There is one good thing about the repair. The bowl will fit into a smaller space. The original bowl was quite wide and would occupy a whole table. I do like the pattern of her bowl. Some apparenza pieces are prettier than others. I like the center of Rose's bowl better than I like the one in my picture.