Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ivo on May 23, 2005, 09:11:19 AM
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http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2677
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2676
Here are 2 pics from a shop window in Toledo with several enameled ROYO pieces. Royo pieces turn up regularly and there are several books around which repeat the rumour that these were made by Moser in the 1930s - which Moser denies, by the way. It is a bit of a mystery because there seems to be no factory of that name on record.
Now on a grand tour around Spain I saw more tack than you can shake a stick at - but only ONE shop which carried Royo pieces. The sticker reads "Hand painted - made in Spain" - so it seems likely that Royo is a very small outfit in Toledo.
The pieces in the shop were fairly large and had prices of E550 each - so even if you knocked them down by 50% it would still be an expensive glass type.
See also thread: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2048.0.html
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This turned up for me today, I bought it hoping it was Royo....
Royo covered vessel with butterflies, approximately 9":
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2684
...and it is! :D Hmm. I'm not quite sure what to do with it now...the shed perhaps? :lol: :roll:
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Ivo,
Any chance you remember the name of the store in Toledo that had all the Royo pieces in the window? I'll be in Toledo next week and was hoping to stop in....
thx...
Mike
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You will most likely find the shop in the side street from Calle Santo Tomé close by the entrance to the Santo Tomé Church - famous for the large El Greco painting "Funeral of the Count of Orgaz".
8)
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Just in case anyone feels like rehashing the old Moser making 'Royo' myth. Here's a current auction on EBAY that features the 'Royo' signature and it has an 'Arte Catalan Made in Spain' label on it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=004&item=140000766239&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Nice work but obviously contemporary and obviously not made by Moser.
Hopefully this will put the whole 'Moser Royo' topic to bed once and for all! :roll:
/Blair
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I'd love to see this one cracked, I've never believed these were a Moser product.
I wonder what information this attribution was originally based upon?
Brian
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I'm not too sure who started it but I know that Gary Baldwin perpetuated the myth on page 137 of his book "Moser Artistic Glass Edition Two" where he attributes a enamelled charger signed "Royo" circa 1925 to Moser.
/Blair
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It was published in 1997, note that it's "Edition Two." I've never seen the first edition, so I'm not sure if the Royo attribution is made there as well. I don't recall seeing it made in any other glass books, with the exception of a few price guides (that I probably wouldn't put a lot of credence into them anyhow). I do not believe Royo is mentioned in the Mergle Moser book (excellent book BTW).
The quality isn't the same as known Moser pieces I've seen or own, but I wonder if the glass could possibly be lower end Moser blanks (going out on a limb here)?
Brian
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Its interesting that if you go the the bible of glass marks (Glassmarken Lexikon - Hartmann) he atributes both 'Royo' and 'Cire' to Moser c1920 - more importantly he notes that he bases this solely on 'Baldwin' - no other reference is mentioned - quoting Baldin as having a copyright date of 1988 -presumably the 1st edition.
I've been to Barcelona and seen tons of both (Cire and Royo) in antique shops, with owners adamant that it was locally produced (and very old) -but they would say that.. (yes the prices were sky high)
We also have to take into account Moser did produce massive quantities of glass in many styles - much of it utility and cheap! I'm not surprised Moser says they didn't make Royo. Come to think of it, I'm told 20 years or so ago Stuart said they never did enamaelled glass either!
So is it Moser or not? Perhaps we'll never know -its amazing the power of one reference in one book. Personally I like a good mystery! But as one source book quotes it as Moser, that's probably the label I'll leave on it when selling the stuff (but without the sky high prices).
cheers all
Mike
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"So is it Moser or not? Perhaps we'll never know"?????? :?
I thought i just clarified that by showing a listing on EBAY with a contemporary "Made in Spain" label.
Am I missing something here?? Does Moser have a mystery factory in Spain??????
Royo / Cire enamelled glass was NOT made by Moser...how can that be made any clearer?? :shock:
/Blair
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Yes I've often seen the 'Made in Spain' labels on Royo etc recently and probably going back 10-20 years. (and yes they look modern). But does that make them actually Spanish?
One other crucial point is that there is in fact a very large volume of this stuff - the producer must be (or have been) quite large (actually thinking about it - its about as common as say Mdina)
I've never doubted that they were made for the spanish tourist market, some of the shapes and enamelled images are a dead give away. Baldiwin says: -
'probably produced for spanish market.... Based on present Knowledge those articles ... can be safely attributed to Moser' ----
I'd dearly love to know what his 'present knowledge' was. Most of the rest of his book is pretty accurate (except maybe the pricing).
Surely any enterprising manufacturer of such things, or, if not the maker then any industrious importer, would want to stick a 'Made in Spain' sticker on them! Basic touristware to entice the English/American speaking tourist.
In fact its not hard the believe a big player in the Spanish touristware market, in the 1920s or even as late as 1970/80s, wanting some large volume glass tourisware to flog to tourists in Spain, would probably go to either Italy or Czechoslovakia for such a product - if it wasn't being made locally. They would have been the cheapest source.
I'm not saying this stuff is MOSER! -only Baldwin says that- I'm just saying that a labels saying 'Made in Spain' on them is only another piece to the jigsaw, and neither new nor conclusive!
In fact the only other vague link between Moser and Royo to my eye is that in the 1880-90s. Moser did some enamelling which draws on similar iconography. BUT that is not original iconography it too draws from various european traditions -now that's a tenous link if there ever was one.
Mr Gary D .Baldwin where ever you are - please tell us about your 'present knowledge'!
Cheers
Mike
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Actually Gary is on the Tias art glass discussion group (art-glass@tias.com), which you can join and ask, it would definitely be a an interesting discussion topic.
When he joined the group earlier this year, someone sent a nice and PC post asking if he felt that all of the information in his book was still valid, and he responded that he would not change anything.
Don't get me wrong, he's a well intended guy, and knowledgeable, but I believe there to be some fallacies in the book (Moser jaded perhaps :-)
Without some evidence I don't believe the Royo attribution, but I do believe that Moser made glass for some of the other markets, such as the glass sold to the Italian market as shown in his book. Almost any glass house would be happy to sell blanks under contract to a foreign customer (I believe it happened a lot more then is currently thought).
His information for the book is mainly based on the archives that Leo Moser donated to the Corning Museum of Glass when he and his daughter fled from the Nazi's to the U.S. (that story is truly fit for a great movie IMO).
Brian
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There is also a possibility that the name Royo hd been used in the past by one company and adopted later by another company. Possibly with no knowledge of or connection to the first. That the styles involved are similare could be coincidence. Far fetched but it is important to keep an open mind with all unresolved questions or you run the risk of creating your 'own' answer.
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According to www.repronews.com the Royo and Cire marked pieces started appearing in the US market in the mid 1980's and continued through the mid 1990's with an Ardalt Made in Spain label. Ardalt was a US importer that has since gone out of business.
Here's a partial quote from that site:
Although some pre-1938 Moser decorations occasionally
used an Islamic theme, the modern Spanish pieces are quite crude
and nothing like authentic Moser quality. All the Spanish pieces
we’ve examined, for example, have very rough scarred pontils.
Virtually all Moser products have polished pontils. Authentic Moser
glass bodies are almost always virtually flawless. There are rarely
any bubbles, unmelted grains (seeds) or pitting. All the modern
Spanish pieces have numerous bubbles. Most pieces, but not all pieces,
also have at least some unmelted lumps and some pitting. Almost all
pre-1938 Moser, regardless of how well its been cared for, shows at
least some wear to the gold trim. The Spanish pieces show bright gold
throughout with no wear. Likewise, most pre-1938 pieces will show some
minimal scratching on their glass bases.The Spanish pieces are perfectly
smooth with no signs of normal wear. Another less obvious clue is the
shape. All the modern Spanish pieces are in traditional shapes unique to
Spanish glass making.
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Hi this in a very interesting topic.
I have to say that from personal experience, far from Moser supplying blanks, others seem to have supplied Moser.
This is very irksome. Lets face it, if you are one of Europe's premier marks, do you sell blanks that could discredit the company, by association....
Royo is Spanish, the design Mor-esque, and sure, some similarities exist.
BUT Moser deny it, the Spanish are proud of a home-produced product.
One has to ask, is this a collecting ploy?
As with the Reuben Ruthven items recently, is this merely a group of alleged cognoscenti, being too cognisant and au fait, for the truth to survive???
JMHO,
Marcus
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Perhaps Royo were handled by the same wholesaler that handled Moser and the misattribution resulted from that?
Speculation, speculation. Hopefully Ivo finds the answer in Spain and rounds the thread off.
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I've been looking long and hard at a couple of bits of Royo I have to hand at the moment -comparing them to the Repronews comments
strangely quite a few do not agree
-nice ground pontil on one
-no pitting etc
-few bubbles
BUT the wear on the bottom, the gold and other enamelling -I've been over them with a fine loupe:
I'd say one might be 40 years old max (being very generous here) and the other isn't 20 years old.
Pretty damning!
Lets just say whoever made these ones did it quite recently, definetely not around 1925!
Cheers
Mike
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Mine is rather lovely with butterflies and has no discernable wear to the base and no defects in the glass. There's a 'T' shape where the pontil rod would have been, I assume caused by cold shears.
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My green Royo vase has very dull gilding and it's worn in places. There are a few tiny bubbles inside the glass but that's it.
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The "Arte Catalan" sticker -provided it is not a retail label - at least limits it down to Cataluña - so Royo is probably not made in Toledo but in Barcelona.
I managed to stay away from all the tourist traps and have seen NO GLASS AT ALL while in Spain.