Glass Message Board

Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Simone on February 18, 2006, 11:51:52 PM

Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Simone on February 18, 2006, 11:51:52 PM
On Ebay there's a lovely butterfly paperweight (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/c1973-Baccarat-Crystal-Paperweight_W0QQitemZ7391816079QQcategoryZ20QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) which the seller says is Baccarat, but it can't be if it's signature cane is s73, so I thought it might be Strathearn.

Can someone else enlighten me please?
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 19, 2006, 02:33:20 AM
Hi

Yes - Modern Baccarat, Modern St Louis - see Anne Metcalfe's Miller's Guide pp46 - 49

I don't know if it's a limited edition, they usually were - the cane is a bit strange s73, I can see being an overlay it would be to the base but looking at other weights it seems strange, then again they don't show us a picture - see http://www.wpitt.com/modfr1.html - 61 is the edition number - I know this is Baccarat, just don't recognise the sig cane - same period St Louis has cane SL73 or SL1973


Strangely enough these 1970s weights are the most affordable of the famous French makers.

Antique Baccarat & St Louis weights go for thousands and brand new ones also go for thousands LOL

Ultra Modern Baccarat make only a few paperweights every year and supply to very few shops.

It's a lovely paperweight - I suspect it will go for about £170+ (if right) as the butterfly is sought after (it does have a chip) - I will email the seller ref any dox or evidence ref the size of the edition - anyone know?

Adam P
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Simone on February 19, 2006, 03:12:38 AM
Antique Baccarat doesn't go for thousands!  :o

I sold a double trefoil in very good condition for £300, and a few years ago, brought them for less.

I do like Baccarat and have a few antique ones and modern ones, but with all paperweights, some call to your heart more than others... and with me it's just butterflies.
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 19, 2006, 03:21:19 AM
Hi Simone

I stand corrected  :idea:  :lol:  - Antique Baccarat can go for thousands - depends on rarity Baccarat (http://www.sweetbriar.co.uk/weightlist.php?maker=Baccarat) - see that some are £350.00 to £800.00 -  five are over the thousand mark, one being £3,450.00

Thanks

Adam P
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Simone on February 19, 2006, 12:05:43 PM
Quote from: "David555"
Hi Simone

I stand corrected  :idea:  :lol:  - Antique Baccarat can go for thousands - depends on rarity Baccarat (http://www.sweetbriar.co.uk/weightlist.php?maker=Baccarat) - see that some are £350.00 to £800.00 -  five are over the thousand mark, one being £3,450.00

Thanks

Adam P


Hi Adam,

I know that some are very rare, like the antique butterflies, which I'm proud and lucky to have one of, and hopefully, if it's still available in a few months, will have another.

My friend works in a charity shop and phones me when someone brings in the antique weights and I pay a good price for them.
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: KevinH on February 19, 2006, 01:16:04 PM
I see that the seller of the butterfly weight has updated the listing to correct the attribution. It is now rightly stated as a Strathearn weight.

Simone ... you may have more competition for this one than if it was a Baccarat!
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Frank on February 19, 2006, 01:56:43 PM
Were these a special or a standard model?
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 19, 2006, 03:48:47 PM
Thanks Simone, I wish I had a friend like that  :P  :P

Kev - I knew it was weird with that cane - Simone called it  ........... 'Strathearn' and of course this information is within the section of Frank's website 'Strathearn Paperweights' some had an 's' cane  :oops:

I actually emailed the seller asking to see the cane - no reply

So now we know it's a Strathearn, it's not bog standard and looks really beautiful - btw is the etched '61' an edition number?

Oh and it I take it was a genuine mistake on the sellers behalf, after all there are no books or websites showing Baccarat sig/date canes - I wish sellers would work on the principle 'If in doubt don't shout' - but maybe it was bought in the box, fitted well and of course it's that dealers very first auction so I can't be too critical

Adam P


P.S - Intersting it has gone from £50 to £100 already - I see the highest bidder is a collector of paperweights, especially Scottish ones - mmmmmm
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: KevinH on February 19, 2006, 06:35:54 PM
Frank - It's not a "standard" design. But if say much more than that, I'll give away my own reasons for thinking about bidding. Ah, but I just did that by saying what I did. That'll teach me for breaking my own rule on not normally commenting on active eBay listings.  :)

Adam - The etched "61" is something that I know little about, but various Strathearn weights do have that type of etched number, as well as other info sometimes. I feel pretty sure that the seller was basing the attribution on the weight being in a modern Baccarat box, which may well have been just the way it got packed up during a clearance or sorting out at an auction room.
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 19, 2006, 10:16:43 PM
You are right Kev
 
Seller emailed me and is nervous about making a genuine mistake, I now know what happened and he is worried about not getting the attribution correct. It's his first eBay auction so he doesn't know that he cannot change the title once bids have gone in.
 
You are gonna love this bit (ref your own interest) - he would not mind knowing as much extra information about it to put in the 'add other info field'
 
Well with you interested and a few others (I am seriously thinking of bidding) I am sure you won't want to give too much away LOL
 
Well - there is an overlay butterfly C001 1979 on Frank's site - cane is s79 - I can't help seeing this weight as a later version of the weight on offer - except I think the eBay weight is sooo beautiful, the overlay colours and the way the wings are built up is cracking workmanship - s73 cane, now which great craftsmen were working at Strathearn during this period?
 
Apparently the chip is a 'flea bite' and I can't see it detracting (not for me anyhow)
 
Adam P
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Simone on February 20, 2006, 02:07:25 AM
Quote from: "KevH"
I see that the seller of the butterfly weight has updated the listing to correct the attribution. It is now rightly stated as a Strathearn weight.

Simone ... you may have more competition for this one than if it was a Baccarat!


Kev, there might be some competition, but I'm ready for it... I made the first bid of £100, just so as I'd know I had to bid on it... it's a butterfly, and a really pretty one, which I adore.

It's nothing to do with the maker by the way... it's just the butterfly.

Adam, as far as Scottish paperweights (especially butterflies) goes, yes, that's me...  :lol:


I'm also selling a few more weights, amongst other things, because there's some fantastic butterflies coming up for sale soon...

It just takes so long to photograph and then list everything on Ebay.

btw, does anyone know who made this vase (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Beautiful-ruby-glass-gilded-enamelled-painted-vase_W0QQitemZ7392230179QQcategoryZ64878QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)?
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 20, 2006, 03:46:09 AM
I will look out for Butterfly paperweights for you Simone, there are also some beautiful paperweight pin dishes out there, etc.

I have had some beautiful W Manson, Vasart & Italian ones in my time :)

I probably won't bid on this knowing you want it, I don't get in the way of others true passions LOL  :P   :P

The vase - Ivo knows about the really good Spanish ones, I think this is Italian or Czech with cold painted enamel c1960s to present - I have a few similar ones in my collection I didn't pay a lot for.

Adam P
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Simone on February 20, 2006, 09:52:36 AM
Hi Adam,

Thank you so much for your offer of looking out for butterflies. They really are my passion, and one which started in my early teens. When I was 15 I got a Saturday job in Portobello Road and collected all the old butterfly brooches I could afford (they were all 25p at the time) - and the dealers used to save them till I got there at 7am to see which ones I liked before putting the remainder out on their stalls... in turn, I used to give them discounts on shirts and jeans.

As for the vase, I'm sure it's older, because I remember thinking how kitch it was - back in the 1950's... and they'd had it for a while then with all the accessories to match.  :?

I'm slowly going through the boxes I've stored things in to make more space and am putting everything on Ebay that I don't display or use.  :D
 
I found a lot of Victorian and art deco glass that I painted in the 70's, 80's and 90's that I got from different markets where they were selling them for about 10p at the time, but I don't know how to get the paint off...  :oops:
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 20, 2006, 02:07:47 PM
Hi

Ref the Strathearn

I see Richard has given the seller all the information he needs to sell it for what it really is - generous as always ..... and why not.

I have been talking to the seller called Angus and well no one can explain it better than him (permission gviven to post)

"My father ran an art gallery in Cornwall in the 70's/80's. This and a Baccarat I sold last week were part of the stock that was bought for the gallery but were held onto as he always said they were not the norm. I knew nothing as I was only a wee lad. With the divorce of my parents and subsequent death of my mother my brother and I split the estate and he being disinterest in art wanted to sell them at local auction but I refused having seen some of the best pieces in the house go for 50pence. I have been holding them since in their boxes. I assumed it was a Baccarat due to the box. Your research and thoughts have been enlightening.

Yes please do get any of your friends or colleagues to contact me as I am interested as well as trying to sell the piece. It would be nice to think it is going to people that appreciate it. You can get me direct on ......." (email given but withheld)

I can't give his email - I will invite him to join the board


Adam P
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Connie on February 20, 2006, 03:55:10 PM
I can't remember if Simone's high bid at 100 had met reserve.

The other bids look like 1 or 2 bidders seeking the reserve.  But if they had paid attention  and looked at the retracted bid history, they would have known the reserve  :roll:
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 20, 2006, 08:40:25 PM
Hi

I put in the second bid after Simone but retracted it, I realised tactically that is not my way of bidding - I like to wait until the very end. I put in £150.00 and was then the highest bidder Fonter56 - at that point.

Since then someone (a usual suspect LOL) has put in a large bid, although the reserve has been met no one knows how much that second bidder is prepared to go to.

So a potential buyer has used two dormant but active names to test the water up to a certain level. It is perfectly legal and different from shill bidding on your own item. I see they have stopped at what is probably their limit - if it had gone to them, they would just retract the last bid - sounds a bit silly, but its some peoples way of finding out how hot an item is at a certain point, they may or may not be back later - I would say under their active name for sure.

I had this happening to me from time to time when I was eBaying, I can't say it annoyed me - it just caused fervour early on and the item usually sold really well.

That is my opinion anyway.

Simone - this was the Baccarat weight seller sold last week eBay_link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1978-Baccarat-millefiori-crystal-paperweight_W0QQitemZ7388751232QQcategoryZ20QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

I see the s73 in question is at £175.00 now - 3 days still to go, I fear it is getting away from me.

btw - I wish he would join and we could see all his other weights  8)  but that is up to him

Adam P
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 20, 2006, 10:48:07 PM
Hi

They look like ghost (mirror) accounts - you can have as many as you want I guess and each attached to a different email address. I think the recent activity (bidding on same items, same seller) shows they are linked and used by an eBayer to test the water on items, why they have suddenly decided to bid up (test) on this paperweight when there is no other paperweight bidding in the 'bid history' is something we will probably never know - I have talked to eBay about this in the past and none of the activity is illegal unless you bid up your own items (shill bidding) - I am sure the seller of the s73 isn't doing this - he doesn't fit the profile and looking at the dates these accounts were created makes it pretty well impossible.
 
decobuster23  29-Nov-03  Present
sezzion9collector  04-Jul-04  Present  
 
I think they are mysterious accounts and there will probably be a lot more, I don't know if I would call them bad as I don't think they are affecting the outcome of the auction IMHO

I have asked eBay to investigate shill bidding accounts (other accounts used to bid up your own item to the reserve and then on to force the highest bidders limit after reserve is met) but they came back with ‘investigation found no impropriety’ (Ha!)

I am not bothered in this case as I am positive the seller is not responsible, that’s really all I worry about.

On another note - Kev – do you think the flea bite will affect future value of this item, I mean if I go bankrupt and have to sell all my worldly possessions?

I think I will ask the seller to send me a picture if he can

Adam P
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: KevinH on February 20, 2006, 11:11:07 PM
Quote
On another note - Kev – do you think the flea bite will affect future value of this item, I mean if I go bankrupt and have to sell all my worldly possessions?
Sadly, I am unable to divine the future. A flea-bite now affects the present assumed value according only to the perceptions of those interested in the item - but if it's unobtrusive on the base or low on the edge, it won't matter that much, except to those who only wish to own, or deal in, "perfect" items.

Who knows what the future will hold? I certainly don't. I had no idea yesterday that my car battery would be dead by this morning. And I also had no idea that I would not be able to remove the battery by myself and that I would therefore have to call out professional assistance. :)

Such is life ... one day at time ... that's the only way I can handle it comfortably.
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Simone on February 20, 2006, 11:21:51 PM
As for bidders using "shadow" accounts... why can't they bid in their own names?

Isn't that a little bit shifty?
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 20, 2006, 11:34:46 PM
Thanks Kev

I know you get asked these questions all the time LOL - it's just you know so much we can't help think of you as having supernatural qualities LOL - it is unfair to put pressure on you like that.

What ever the future holds - a thing will only ever be worth what a person is willing to pay for it at that time - even regardless of price guides and auction room prices - I have been buying and selling long enough to know that is true - I have a items (signed grey-stan) I tried to sell on eBay and zilch, yet look at the guides.

As you often say if it speaks to you buy it - so I have some thinking to do over the next three days

Simone - I agree ref the other accounts, many dealers do not have as much moral intergity as you - if someone is hyping their goods then all the better. Like you I used to block - but it is difficult to know after all they look like genuine accounts and I can't say no to all zero feedback bidders - the way I could tell was if they withdrew bids all the time like a cat and mouse game (bahhh)

I will ask the seller for pictures and see if he lets me post them on GMB - nice detailed ones of the weight with the base marks, and the flea-bite (I will give him full copyright), he can only say no!


Adam P
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Simone on February 20, 2006, 11:48:53 PM
Hi Adam,

You'll find that with glass, as well as with fashions, people follow trends, but if you really like something and it calls to your heart, it'll always hold value for you, and that's what's important.

As for the odd bidders, I follow my gut instinct and if something doesn't feel right, then invariably it's not, so I've blocked a couple of Ebay bidders now.

And I took advice and with expensive things, ask bidders with no feedback to let me have their phone no so I have proof of who they are, and that's worked very well.

It'll be great to see if he'll take some nice pictures for you to post here. You know, when you see the digital photos of paperweights come up very clearly and so large (uncompressed) on your computer screen, you're looking at some true works of art, the same as any painting. Try it with some of the more intricate weights and hopefully you'll see it the way that I do. :)

When you do that, then you'll also learn what really calls to your heart.  :wink:
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 21, 2006, 12:11:56 AM
Hi Simone

Wow .... that sounds so seductive, the way you describe the true passion of collecting for beauties sake.

I am a commercial animal, it's true - but I go along with what you say - I have a houseful of Glass and silver and ceramics I can't part with because of their beauty - they inspire me.

The dragonfly / butterfly is one of my favourite images in art - did you see the Lalique dragonfly brooch at the V&A art nouveau exhibition some years ago? - it was awesome!

I have a few butterfly paperweights as you know, I love it when aventurine is used in a skilled fashion - thing is they are becoming rarer and more expensive (you have them all LOL).

I also love butterflies on ceramics - Carlton Ware did some stunners and the work of 'Daisy Makeig-Jones' when painting butterflies is fantastic.

I must post (cafe forum) a beautiful lustre butterfly dish made by Britannia Pottery of St. Rollox, Glasgow c 1920s along with some of Warwick Goble's butterfly illustrations (Fairy Book) - he was the best at butterflies/dragonflies, I have some of his first editions, as well as Dulac and Rackham.

Even though I was trained as a modern/abstract artist at college, I do seem to love the decorative arts so much more.


Adam P
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Simone on February 21, 2006, 01:07:17 AM
Adam,

I just sold a cracked and chipped Minton pot (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7383376819) with a butterfly on, and with a lovely little bird, I was actually shocked at what it made and even more shocked when the buyer, using another name, sold it for £250.

I also love the creative arts and used to paint a lot when I was younger. I inherited it from my mother who was an artist... my eyes aren't so good for painting detail these days, so I look and have some wonderful pieces.

My passion for beautiful paperweights is no less than my passion for any other work of art. I love the beauty and intricacy of it, so much so, that when you've see lovely things and take them home, your heart feels like it's bursting with joy at being given the privilege of acting as a caretaker of such objects.

Talking of illustrated books - I never gave any of mine away and still have my childhood ones, plus a few I got along the way. I also got a handpainted Japanese fairy story book, with the paintings separated from the rest of the pages by intricately watermarked rice paper, but each one is differently watermarked.

I have a whole collection of butterfly brooches, some enamelled butterflies I got when I was wandering around France, and other bits with butterflies on, like my bedside lamp.

Personally, I think the ideal situation for paperweight collectors, is for people to buy what they like, and then not swap, but loan them to another collector who loans you some of his, and that way you have a constant turnaround of different weights to enjoy their beauty. Wouldn't that be wonderful?  :D
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 21, 2006, 03:20:18 PM
Hi

The seller has been kind enough to send me high resolution pictures - he says do what I want with them although I have still given him copyright

Here we go

(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/8118/p19qx.th.jpg) (http://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p19qx.jpg)

link_1 (http://publish.hometown.aol.com/sterlingbooks03/images/p1.jpg)

(http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/2641/p28aq.th.jpg) (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p28aq.jpg)

link_2 (http://publish.hometown.aol.com/sterlingbooks03/images/p2.jpg)

(http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/7706/p30bw.th.jpg) (http://img488.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p30bw.jpg)

link_3 (http://publish.hometown.aol.com/sterlingbooks03/images/p3.jpg)

(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2943/p49iq.th.jpg) (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p49iq.jpg)

link_4 (http://publish.hometown.aol.com/sterlingbooks03/images/p4.jpg)


Adam P
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Simone on February 21, 2006, 03:31:35 PM
Thanks Adam, they're lovely pictures, and I'm sure the weight looks better in real life. :)
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 21, 2006, 03:49:59 PM
Thanks Simone

They give a bit of extra information not on the eBay auction site - also they are GMB pictures now, so to speak - which may come in handy later for research.

The seller has given me use of copyright - I chose to add his name to the pics, he did say "You can have them and be able to manipulate to your preference" - I will say that in this light if a 'research site' wants copies of the original large size images, I will email to them.

My quest here was to get good pictures for GMB research rather than boost the sellers sale - I have detached myself from any commercial aspect and will not be bidding on the item now.

Note it is Macwatt not MacWatt (apologies my mistake)

Adam P
Title: Owner of Strathearn Butterfly
Post by: angusmacwatt on February 21, 2006, 09:07:52 PM
Good evening everybody. I am the owner of the much talked about Butterfly. I thought I would dispel any possible rumours - I am certainly not the person shill bidding if that is what seems to be happening.

The reason I came to the board was to publicly thank Adam for his kindness in helping me to get the sale of this lovely weight right. I have had this in the house since the 70's in a Baccarat box that did not seem to be right in comparison to the other weight I had.

Sadly I do not hold any more weights.

I thought you might like to see the weight I sold last week as it was a really beautiful piece. It was being bid for by "andycollections" for some of the time but sold in the end to a gentleman in Dorset as a present for his wife at Valentiness It sold for £251.11 which may or may not have been indicative of its real market value. Either way it went to a good home which I was rather pleased about.

I am afraid I am rather sentimental about things like this whether I want to keep them or not I like to think they are going to someone who will love them. Simone, You seem to show that passion.

I enclose these photos for your research. Do with them as you wish. I can if you like try and ascertain from my father where he purchased them for the Fine Art Gallery in Bodmin that he set up years ago.

Ah!? I seem unable to post images.

I will email them to Adam as he seems more successful than I.
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 22, 2006, 01:18:42 PM
Welcome to the board Angus

Sorry for getting your name wrong with capitol W - I should now better being from Glasgow :oops:

I as well of many others am sure those strange bids were nothing to do with you. I only mentioned shill bidding to prove it could not be you bidding with ghost accounts as the two accounts mentioned are years older than your account. I am sorry if this has caused you any offence - it was in general discussion rather than through any suspicion of yourself that bids from these accounts was mentioned.

As for thanking me - It's Simone who drew our attention to your paperweight, and you who provided us with such excellent pictures - a great act of kindness on your part.

And now you have provided excellent pictures of your Baccarat paperweight sold last week - such lovely close up pictures of the symbol canes

(http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/1218/boxedc7qi.th.jpg) (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=boxedc7qi.jpg)

(http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/6097/sideview2c1pa.th.jpg) (http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sideview2c1pa.jpg)

(http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2990/closeupc9em.th.jpg) (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=closeupc9em.jpg)

(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/9734/closeup22vt.th.jpg) (http://img163.imageshack.us/my.php?image=closeup22vt.jpg)
All photos copyright of Angus Macwatt February 2006

Thanks again Angus


Adam P
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: angusmacwatt on February 22, 2006, 01:39:01 PM
Don't worry no offence caused in the slightest.

Re the Baccarat photos I sent you. this was a lovely piece and one whose intricacies made it all the more beautiful every time you examined it more closely. I am not sure whether it was a significant weight in the big scheme of things. - Clare my wife saw one on a  US website last night that was similar but a different colour.

Interestingly 5 years ago I sent some photos to a seller regarding both these and he told me they had no real value and would give me £50 for the two of them.

Cheeky!
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Simone on February 22, 2006, 03:31:52 PM
Thanks for helping out Angus, it really is very kind of you. The photos are lovely!

If you ever acquire any more paperweights, you can always get pictures posted here and we'll help identify them for you, which makes them much easier for selling, or maybe you'll even start collecting! :D

You're welcome here any time. I hope the auction does well for you - and I also hope that I win it, although there are some hefty bidders around right now.

Take care and once again, thank you.

Simone
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Frank on February 22, 2006, 08:13:24 PM
Quote from: "angusmacwatt"
Interestingly 5 years ago I sent some photos to a seller regarding both these and he told me they had no real value...


5 years is a long time in Strathearn weights, it is only relatively recently that prices have climbed so fast... about the same rate that published research has been available.
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: KevinH on February 23, 2006, 06:51:31 PM
Sorry to the other bidders. But I have been looking for one of these for some time, having lost out on one (at a very good price) because I dithered for too long, wondering where it was made.
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: Frank on February 23, 2006, 09:07:59 PM
:shock: A Strathearn record!
Title: Puzzlement about maker?
Post by: David555 on February 23, 2006, 11:09:45 PM
Hi all

It's rare and of great beauty :mrgreen: - I was going to bid, then not bid - I would have gone to £400.00 (and been pipped), I think it's worth a lot more than that in so many ways.

Meanwhile - congratulations Kev, well even at that price - I know it will help you so much in your study of Strathearn paperweights, Angus wanted a good home for it and that has certainly happened.

I can't wait to see results of any tests / research you do on the weight (if you do any) posted on your excellent site.

Adam P