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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Sue C on June 05, 2007, 02:29:43 PM

Title: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Sue C on June 05, 2007, 02:29:43 PM
Hi all, i think this is WF 9858, but never having handled one i am not sure, any help would be appreciated, thank you.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7348
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Quackers on June 05, 2007, 03:24:28 PM
Looks good - what is the height?  Gold FLC will be the colour rather than amber.
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Sue C on June 05, 2007, 03:38:02 PM
Hi Tim, it's exactly 9in, nice polished pontil, and thank's for the colour  :)
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Quackers on June 05, 2007, 05:28:15 PM
It is half an inch too tall but that is not that unusual with WF ;)  See http://www.whitefriars.com/catalogues/contents.php?id=9918 for the full details - as far as I could see it was only produced 1978-80.

as far as heights of WF vases go I have a large collection of 9570 Tricorns which are supposed to be 9.5" but they range by 1/2" either way - see http://whitefriarsorg.org/mf/uploads/post-4-1168470294.jpg  The Sage is nearly an inch taller than the Arctic Blue!

Nice find by the way - Gold FLC is a lovely colour and I've only seen a couple of that shape before.
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Bernard C on June 05, 2007, 05:34:36 PM
Sue & Tim — Would this be a Tom Hill 5-sided 9090 bowl, finished as a vase before opening out?   I had one myself about three years ago, and it took some selling, as no-one would believe me!   This is the only other example I have seen.    At the time I wondered if this stage in the production was too thin in the body to open out and stretch for a bowl, that they switched to the vase.   It would make sense.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Quackers on June 05, 2007, 05:49:12 PM
Hi Bernard, I don't know for sure but I wouldn't have thought so.  9090 was a fairly big lump o'glass (11" or 12" diameter) and I can't think that they could produce a vase like this from it ???  Also 9090 was last catalogued over 20 years before 9858 was introduced.

9858 had a little brother - 9859 which is only 6.5" tall so I would have thought they would share the same ?mould to start with.  All educated presumption of course, perhaps Patrick is about and might know for certain?
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Bernard C on June 05, 2007, 06:57:37 PM
Tim — I would have thought that for all of these, vases and bowls, the gather was partly split into five by one of those cutters that look like vertical metal plates arranged radially.   There's a photograph of one of these at Fenton in Hajdamach, and I've seen them used on Murano.

Like you, I would welcome an authoritative opinion.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Sue C on June 05, 2007, 07:18:48 PM
Tim and Bernard, thank you so much for your information and thought's, i will try to take better photo's tomorrow,(i'm not very good).
Another question, how uncommon is this shape? or is it just not recognized as WF?.
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Quackers on June 05, 2007, 08:24:10 PM
I don't know how many were made but I have only seen two before, both Gold FLC - one had its stickers on to make life easy :)  Compare that to something really rare and desirable like a Lilac 9691 bark vase (maybe 1 or 2 a year on ebay), I suspect that it simply isn't noticed as much as the popular textured ranges.  I'm now collecting the 1960s optic rib vases they made and they don't fetch anything like the money that bark vases of the same era do...but I think they have just as much character and interest...only about 17 variations to find as well ;D
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Chris Harrison on June 06, 2007, 02:13:30 AM
Yes, this is correct.
I have both sizes in Gold and Aqua FLC.  I've also seen versions in Sky Blue, but they're few and far between.
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Bernard C on June 06, 2007, 07:35:43 AM
Correction — There are three plates in Hajdamach that could be relevant to 5-sided bowls and vases.   These are
Also what does FLC mean?

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Chris Harrison on June 06, 2007, 07:59:33 AM
Hi Bernard
Sorry to be obtuse. I forgot where I was.
It's Whitefriars-ese shorthand for Full Lead Crystal (to denote completely self-coloured items, rather than clear-cased)
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Chris Harrison on June 06, 2007, 08:29:31 AM
I don't see why they couldn't have made use of the five-lobed mould that was originally used to make the 9090.

Blow into the mould, swing the bubble out to stretch it, then finish off the neck by hand.  Seems reasonable to me.

Maybe one of the old WF gang can tell us for certain.
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Quackers on June 06, 2007, 06:34:28 PM
Thinking about the possible re-use of an old five-lobed mould, does anyone know if there were old 3- or 8-lobed bowls/vases?  I'm thinking about the 9570 tricorn and 9728 8-sided vase.  My interest in WF is primarily late 1950s onwards so I'm not that familiar with the earlier stuff. 

Bernard - I often see reference to the Hajdamach book but I know nothing else about it - do you mean this? http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Glass-1800-1914-Charles-Hajdamach/dp/1851491414/ref=sr_1_2/026-8196428-9118004?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181154478&sr=1-2
Is it worth getting for general glass info or shall I stick with the specific factory/type/area books that I've been buying?
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 06, 2007, 06:53:50 PM
Yep, that's the book, but if you buy it get it from amazon.com for about the same number of dollars as pounds. Delivery is pretty quick if in stock. I've only just started reading mine so no opinions yet on worthwhileness
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Chris Harrison on June 06, 2007, 09:42:28 PM
Tim,
If I remember rightly, Barbara (BJB) sold an smallish 8-lobed sapphire bubble bowl last year some time.  She was doubtful as to whether it was a Whitefriars piece, but it went - to the NL, I seem to recall.
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Bernard C on June 06, 2007, 11:54:18 PM
Quote from: Chris Harrison
... the five-lobed mould that was originally used to make the 9090. ...

Chris — What type of mould was it?
You have no idea of what great pleasure it is to find a rare WF enthusiast prepared to talk production techniques.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Is this WF 9858 ?
Post by: Chris Harrison on June 07, 2007, 07:17:05 AM
Bernard,
I think we're talking about a dip mould, here.
I had a brief technical chat with Patrick Hogan, Ray Annenberg, Eddie King and Nashie at the Whitefriars Day at Aaronson Noon back in March, and one of them said that was the most commonly used mould for the kind of shape and finish being discussed here. 
Eddie had with him a diamond point mould that he uses to create bubbled pieces.  Patrick had helped recreate a tricorn mould so that Ray could show us how those vases were made.  It was all fascinating stuff.
I'm sure that one of the above could contribute more - or Adam, perhaps.  I'm just extrapolating from my very limited knowledge base (but I want to learn more...).