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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Max on August 31, 2005, 06:18:16 PM

Title: Signature N Orr '68 fox engraved goblet = Norman Orr Edinburgh crystal blank
Post by: Max on August 31, 2005, 06:18:16 PM
I don't think anyone else here really likes engraved glass like me, but maybe someone can help?

I've bought this heavy glass, absolutely exquisitely engraved with a fox and hedgehog, you can see muscle tone on the fox, and every hair on his tail - it's just wonderful!  :D

It's signed 'Nora 68'.  I think it might be by Nora Ortlieb, but I can't find anything much about her - could anyone perhaps say if that's how she signed her glass?  It's a really teeny signature, I don't think I could photo it - sorry.   :(

Here's the pics:

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6503
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6502



TYVMIA[/b]
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Sklounion on August 31, 2005, 06:36:37 PM
Hi Max,
Little available on-line apart from she studied under Wilhelm von Eiff at the Kunstgewerbeschule, Stuttgart.

Exhibition catalogue has one piece by her illustrated but whether you should consider paying $65?

"Glass of the Avant-Garde: from Vienna Secession to Bauhaus, The Torsten Bröhan Collection from the Museo Nacional de Artes Decorativas, Madrid
by Torsten Bröhan and Martin Eidelberg, 2001, Prestel Verlag, New York, NY, 212-995-2720, in association with Exhibitions International, and Cooper-Hewitt, National Design Museum, Smithsonian Institution; 192 pages, English and Spanish, photographs by Angela Bröhan."

Possibly been remaindered.

Regards,

Marcus
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Ivo on August 31, 2005, 06:44:22 PM
The book Marcus mentioned has two examples of her signature, One diamond engraved "NORA ORTLIEB" in allcaps along the bottom rim of a glass, which was used on items made at the Kunstgewerbeschule Stuttgart, the other initials N.O. in allcaps which she used on pieces from her own workshop.
There are 4 pieces depicted, all larger items of modernistic design with strikingly stylised decorations. Not really like your fox - which seems to me more traditional.
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Max on August 31, 2005, 08:07:14 PM
Marcus, thanks for your help, you got further than I did on the net, thanks for the book reference - I looked and looked and got pretty much nowhere on my own.  xx

Ivo...I was relying on you saying 'Yes, that's Nora Ortlieb'...darn it. The signature doesn't sound the same at all.  Thanks for looking it up for me, I really appreciate it.

This is tip-top engraving (IMHO), can there be another Nora in 1968?  It seems odd to me.   :?
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Frank on August 31, 2005, 08:17:27 PM
Max can you do some bigger pics, I think it is sandblasted and then engraved - but pic is a bit small.

Did you see my fisherman vase while here? That is sandblasted and copper wheel finished.
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Ivo on August 31, 2005, 08:29:38 PM
The items in the Torsten Brohan collection are by definition early avantgarde works from the 1920s and 1930s - but she spent the rest of her life engraving glass in her own workshop in Stuttgart (until 1977). Unlikely that she would have kept up the avantgarde themes, but she would have maintained the impeccable engraving quality, and quite probable that she would have succumbed to the local taste. So it is quite possible that the piece from 1968 is, in fact, by Nora O. It has an amazing quality...
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Max on August 31, 2005, 09:17:51 PM
Frank, I haven't seen your fisherman vase.  That sounds like it could be Scandi subject..is it?  Please post it, I'd love to have a look.  Ill try and take a better photo tomorrow that's bigger for you to see.  :D

Ivo...thanks, that's what I'm hoping.  :D  I've never had a piece of engraving this good before (it was going to be a present for my mad Mum...but I'm keeping it now.. :D )  

I might see if I can ask another known glass engraver if he can help...  :?

Just realised to my chagrin that I've misread the signature.   I'm sorry to have wasted peoples time.   :oops:  :oops:  :oops:

It actually seems to read ' N Orr '68 '  ...I see Ivo's book has a C. Orr, but he doesn't seem to be a glass engraver anyway.

I've Googled and Googled and have had no replies to my emails to engravers yet.   :(

Does N Orr ring any bells?   :roll:
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Frank on September 03, 2005, 04:36:20 PM
Norrt with me.

Will get round to snapping the fisherman one day, it is engraved by Alasdair Gordon while at Strathearn.
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Sklounion on September 03, 2005, 08:23:31 PM
Max,
Please, an image of the signature?
Regards,
Marcus
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Max on September 04, 2005, 01:27:15 PM
Marcus - Here's a photo of the signature - I've left it really big, I hope you can see it ok.

It's a terrible signature, it looks like a child's done it.   :roll:

http://tinypic.com/dcvt4k.jpg

...looking forward to seeing your engraved fisherman one day Frank.  :)
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Anne on September 04, 2005, 01:45:33 PM
The only engraver I found called N. Orr is a Victorian one Max, http://web.uflib.ufl.edu/spec/manuscript/guides/Orr%20Family.htm#Engravings don't suppose this helps at all?!  :roll:
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 04, 2005, 01:48:25 PM
:D  :? It seems odd to me that such a good engraver produces such a tacky looking signature....
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Max on September 04, 2005, 01:50:42 PM
Quote from: "Anne"
The only engraver I found called N. Orr is a Victorian one Max:


Thanks for looking Anne, I did find him a few days ago (got quite excited to begin with!) but I think he's a wood engraver, and he might have been a bit dead when this glass was made...  :wink:    xxx
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Frank on September 04, 2005, 02:51:45 PM
Trying to match the blank... using Replacements stemware guide.

It is unusual in that it has equal distance either side of the knob. The following are the closest I could find and the Bryce was the closest of all of these. Most of these are illustrated by line drawings only.

Val St Lambert "State Plain" (Similar from line drawing)
Royal Brierley (Close line drawing)
Reizart
Fostoria "6079"
Edinburgh Crystal
Denby
Bryce "949"

Is it machine made or hand-blown?
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Max on September 04, 2005, 04:21:47 PM
Wow!  Frank, thank you for going to so much trouble! xx

I have to admit I don't really know what to look for in a handmade glass, so I can only surmise - what an embarassing thing to admit on the GMB!  :oops:

There's no 'shear mark' underneath the foot where the pontil mark would be.  I can't see any gadgets marks either, it's finished very smoothly underneath the foot.

The stem seems to be affixed to the bowl with a 'wafer'  :?:   The foot is exactly the same circumference as the top of the bowl.  The bowl has an interesting 'optic rib', when viewed from certain angles, as if it's been spun out...   :?

It's very heavy and quite cumbersome to handle, the top so far outweighs the stem and foot.  Is there a special type of blank for this type of deep engraving?

Well...here's some more photos...perhaps they'll help?

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6506
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6505
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6504

Thanks again!
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Scottish BLANK
Post by: Ivo on September 04, 2005, 05:11:31 PM
Almost certainly hand made. First the bowl was made in a flatbottomed conical mould, then the stem attached; stem and foot were made in a single piece and finished in a clapper (a wooden implement to make it smooth, even  and circular). Clappers came into use after the 1870s, so on no account does it predate that, but you had already figured out it was modern. I can tell - not just from the photograph but because I have that exact glass - unfortunately without fox. It gives a high clear tone when tapped but it is no crystal - it is a semicrystal, so it is probably British or Czech. Also, if you see a fox - look for Brits or Bohemians (cherchez la vixen!)
The "N. ORR '68" does not have to be a signature - it could be after an engraving by Nathaniel Orr, who was a most prolific illustrator in the 19th century.
Ivo

ps. Sorry to hear about your maxident - but if I were you I'd blame it on hot glass....
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Frank on September 04, 2005, 05:43:44 PM
In which case, get in touch with Edinburgh Crystal and ask them if this was someone who engraved for them.
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Max on September 04, 2005, 06:46:46 PM
Quote
In which case, get in touch with Edinburgh Crystal and ask them if this was someone who engraved for them.


Ok, I'll try that.  Thanks for altering my thread title Frank, it might help too.  I'll email Edinburgh crystal tomorrow - hope they can help!   :)

Ivo...thanks for an interesting post!  You would have the same glass, you've got a representation of just about everything glass related!  :roll:  xx  :D

I loved learning about the 'clapper'...I'm going to investigate that more, and you're right, I was thinking it might be crystal...as it does have a nice 'ping'...I've never heard of semi-crystal.  Crumbs!   This goblet has turned in to a right learning curve for me!

Thanks all.   :D
Title: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Max on October 12, 2005, 09:01:22 AM
On the subject of my engraved goblet, I wrote to Tony Gilliam, a member of the Guild of Glass Engravers (www.gge.org.uk) Leni's hubby, Jonathan and I had a merry time making an engraved paperweight with him at Art in Action.

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6503

He said the goblet itself was 24% lead crystal, and he recognised it immediately as Italian.  This company makes huge quantities of glass, and is a favourite with glass engravers.

He said the engraving itself is done by copper wheel (as Frank suggested)
Of course, I'm a bit disappointed that I haven't bought anything too exciting, but the thrill of the chase was kind of fun.   8)  :roll:

Thanks to all for their help. xx
Title: Re: Signature N Orr '68 not Nora Ortlieb? = Italian BLANK
Post by: Max on June 03, 2009, 05:25:23 PM


Mod: I've moved this topic back into Glass for the moment

Frank maybe?

I've got David Encill here at the moment and I happened to show him this goblet, he said immediately 'Norman Orr'!!  

Seems like it might be a match?  What does anyone think?  :)

Title: Re: Signature N Orr '68 fox engraved goblet = Italian BLANK?
Post by: Frank on June 03, 2009, 11:11:35 PM
Too bluddy busy to think but...

http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=313&Itemid=51
http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=35

Recently added drawings... now isn't that fox familiar  :hiclp:


Hope D is getting his emails and can update the site  :thup:
Title: Re: Signature N Orr '68 fox engraved goblet = Italian BLANK?
Post by: Frank on June 04, 2009, 08:55:11 AM
Shiona adds "Looks very much like an Orr, and I think it's engraved on an Edinburgh crystal blank."

I had already found a close match on the blank, see above, so perhaps a change in the title - Scottish blank  :thup:
Title: Re: Signature N Orr '68 fox engraved goblet = Italian BLANK?
Post by: Max on June 04, 2009, 09:06:25 AM
Cool!  I wondered if I'd ever find out who made this.  It's been sitting on my kitchen shelves with a Stephen Rickard engraved goblet for years now.   :)

I'll add photos later and a close up of the signature.  ...thanks to Shiona too.  xx

Title: Re: Signature N Orr '68 fox engraved goblet = Norman Orr Edinburgh crystal blank
Post by: Invertiel on May 30, 2010, 07:21:18 PM
Hi,
   this glass is definately by Norman Orr.... I have just purchased 5 of his watercolors and the style is unmistakeable.
Title: Re: Signature N Orr '68 fox engraved goblet = Norman Orr Edinburgh crystal blank
Post by: Max on May 30, 2010, 07:54:07 PM
How interesting Invertiel!   :D  I am sure that many people would like to see those watercolours.  Is there any chance you could attach them to another post so that we could see them?  Please contact me at:       maxeen   AT  aol.com   if you have any problems.   :)
Title: Re: Signature N Orr '68 fox engraved goblet = Norman Orr Edinburgh crystal blank
Post by: ORR1967 on December 15, 2010, 04:01:33 PM
Hi There,

This definitely looks like a Norman Orr engraving. I am his daughter in law. Can you please contact me regarding the engraving?
Title: Re: Signature N Orr '68 fox engraved goblet = Norman Orr Edinburgh crystal blank
Post by: Glass832 on October 15, 2011, 06:02:05 PM
I have a Norman Orr glass engraving which I am thinking of putting to auction. It is Pegasus engraved on a glass orb and dates from 1991, possibly one of the last pieces Norman did. I have had this from new and it has never been displayed or seen in public. I shall try to post photos if you like.
Title: Re: Signature N Orr '68 fox engraved goblet = Norman Orr Edinburgh crystal blank
Post by: Frank on October 15, 2011, 07:44:40 PM
Hi,

We would be grateful if we could have pictures of the piece for the Scotland's Glass web-site, larger images than can be posted here please. You can e-mail using the envelope icon next to this post.