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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Austria => Topic started by: norman warbreck on December 11, 2008, 11:38:00 AM

Title: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: norman warbreck on December 11, 2008, 11:38:00 AM
rather a clean and stylish piece....gives me the feeling of sklo union...and ideas please-
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: langhaugh on December 13, 2008, 10:20:05 PM
Norman: Had a look a this piece again, but can't offer much. I can see the top of the vase but not the base. Is it one shade of blue in a sommerso drop? What's the bottom like? You say that it's been hot-worked; is there a special feature that stems from the hot-working? Having said all that, my first reaction would be Scandinavian, but very tentatively.

There was thread a little while ago where a few of use were comparing what we took to be Skrdlovice vases. I'll look for later today as it might be of some use to you.

David
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: langhaugh on December 14, 2008, 12:05:25 AM
Norman:  the previous thread can be found in glass under "Topic: Re: Heavy glass vase"

I'll have to read the instructions to find out how to put that in so it appears as a link. Read instructions? Now there's a novel idea for me.

David
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: nigel benson on December 14, 2008, 01:04:43 AM
Norman,

I may be wrong, but I think you'll find that the hot worked Czech glass is not usually referred to under the Sklo Union title.

Marcus will probably confirm if he's about.

I tend to agree that there is a look of Skrdlovice about this piece. How's it finshed on the base?

Nigel
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: norman warbreck on December 14, 2008, 08:19:08 AM
Thanks David...for looking
Nigel the base is flat and smooth polished....i am not in my zurich studio at the moment but by wednesday i will take a base pic...which i should have done from the start.So if i compare the glass body with the base it looks alike.dont know if this explains what i mean ...aargh!
many thanks for all the good advice.
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Della on December 16, 2008, 02:01:03 AM

Hi Norman.

A hand/hint that I can give you, is the fact that the Sklo Union companies did not produce cased glass. There are a few instances where there are applied colours to an item, but this is definitely not an SU piece.

Della
xx
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: langhaugh on December 16, 2008, 02:32:35 AM
I presumed that what Norman was asking was if this piece is Czech glass. I'd fallen into the same habit as Norman, that is, calling all glass produced in communist Czechoslovakia "Sklo Union." Reading Sklo Union by Marcus makes it clear (I think) that Sklo Union only made pressed glass. I agree that, for the sake of accuracy, we should restrict that term to pressed glass. But what should we called the hot worked glass from Skrdlovice, Harrachov and Zelezny Brod, for example? Czech hot glass? (Please, no.)  Was there an umbrella term for those factories? Or should we be running a contest to come up with a new name? Is this a new thread, he asked hopefully?

David
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: norman warbreck on December 16, 2008, 10:24:25 AM
Hi Della
thank u so much for the invaluable hint.Another kind and considerate member has helped me looking at the different issues and shown me how to look at murano glass....which this piece is...sommerso.I have been researching and learning about glass this last year as a new interest so i am truly delighted with all the help and guidance.I have both Mark and Marcus books but still i have doubts when i see so much glass.I guess it will be a matter of time
most importantly that i get to use the correct terminology for the different glass houses.....lesson learnt.
once again thank u for your support

norman
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: norman warbreck on December 16, 2008, 10:33:41 AM
Hi there David
yes i have had that bad habit of calling Czech glass sklo union....a new term that i have learnt since the two new books which i have bought covering Czech glass. I purchased a wonderful book ...age of diversity...two years ago which set me on the way looking for a new collectors interest.
So as i have said to Della that my terminology needs to be perfect and correct....taken note.
What to call the rest would be good advice as then there would be no confusion from my part...smile.
I truly appreciate your comments and help.
many tks
norman
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Lustrousstone on December 16, 2008, 10:36:44 AM
Except that sommerso is not a technique reserved for Murano glass, although it is an Italian term. Can we see a side on picture against a plain white background please, because I'm not convinced it's from Murano
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: nigel benson on December 16, 2008, 01:46:08 PM
Hiya,

OK, here we go.........

Maybe, "Post-war Czech" ? or simply "Czech" ?

I don't think that there is any reason to get too complicated ;)

Kind wishes, Nigel
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Pip on December 16, 2008, 02:16:21 PM
I was just going to say the same as Nigel - Sklo Union pressed glass is called Sklo Union and the hotworked Czech production is called Czech (that's what it's usually referred to on here anyway) - I can't see the need to change since it's not been a problem or cause for confusion.
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Lustrousstone on December 16, 2008, 02:36:28 PM
Me playing devil's advocate again  >:D The Sklo Union factories were not the only Czech companies making pressed glass. So Sklo Union glass, Czech pressed glass and Czech hot worked glass (although the term Marcus uses is off-hand I believe). Then of course there is the blown glass, which may not be hot worked...
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Jindra8526 on December 23, 2008, 08:24:28 PM
To support langhaugh. Sklo Union was Czechoslovakian (do not mix Czech and Czechoslovakia) concern founded in 1965 producing glass in following branches:

• flat and structural glass
• glass sealing material
• container glass and bottles
• domestic pressed glass
• glass machinery and equipment

Sklo (in Czech = glass) union never produced free-blown glass. Missunderstanding in use of Sklo Union term comes from this word SKLO. All what has to do with glass is in Czech sklo, but Sklo Union is name for "Sklo Union" concern.

Marcus fully covers the Sklo Union glass production of pressed domestic glass in his great book. I suppose that nobody from us collects "flat or structural glass" and only few bottles.


Please dear Lustrousstone do not be devil's advocate when you are not absolutely sure you are right.

The displayed piece I am not abble to attribute for the moment. It is not Chribska surely. Seems to me that it can come from late production of Svoboda or any other Czech glasswork, but must not be necessarily Czech. I will take a look. I am sure that this piece is SKLO = glass.

Best regards from Prague and sorry about a little lesson of Czech language.

Jindrich
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: krsilber on December 23, 2008, 11:34:26 PM
Uh-oh.  I'm afraid it's very common to say "Czech" as short for "Czechoslovakian."  Is this incorrect for work carried out between WWII and 1993 as well?  I suppose it would be.  Could be worse...many Americans are wont to forget about all the politics, and call everything made in the general area "Bohemian," regardless of date!

Jindrich - hearty welcome to the forum!  And don't feel you have to apologize for teaching us a lesson! :)

Quote
Then of course there is the blown glass, which may not be hot worked...

I would have though all non-machine blown glass was considered hot worked.  What's the definition of "hot worked"?  I have no idea.

Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: langhaugh on December 24, 2008, 06:17:34 AM
Hiya,

OK, here we go.........

Maybe, "Post-war Czech" ? or simply "Czech" ?

I don't think that there is any reason to get too complicated ;)

Kind wishes, Nigel

What I was looking for was a term to make it it clear what type of glass we're talking about. We agree that there is some confusion at present, in that quite a few people (as I've confessed) used Sklo Union as the umbrella term when talking about glass that is not Sklo Union. I'm not sure calling it Czechoslovakian glass takes us much further forward, as that term, logically, would include Sklo Union glass. I know it's a minor point, but an appropriate term would provide an alternative to the current misuse, and it would definitely help me when I'm looking for glass I want.

 
Then of course there is the blown glass, which may not be hot worked...I would have though all non-machine blown glass was considered hot worked.  What's the definition of "hot worked"?  I have no idea.

I used the term hot worked to describe a style of glass that I'm partial to. I used it in the sense defined by Ricke in 'Czech[sic] Glass, 1945-1980: Design in Age of Adversity.' quote, "Hot-working techniques.... Decorative techniques performed on hot glass at the furnace." It seems to me (I'll stress I'm not a glass blower so I am being tentative) that that's a feature of some glass from Skrdlovice, Zelezny Brod, and Mstisov, for example, although I know it's not an exclusive feature. Mark Hill also uses the term "hot-worked," p. 50, for example, when describing the 'Atlas' vase, a key examplar of this style imho.

David
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Lustrousstone on December 24, 2008, 08:32:25 AM
Quote
I would have though all non-machine blown glass was considered hot worked.

I didn't say I was talking about non-machine blown glass, I was actually being very broad because there's an awful lot of Czechoslovakian blown table/glassware out there
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Frank on December 24, 2008, 09:39:14 AM
Personally I think hot worked as a sub-classification in glass-making is an oxymoron. Cold worked glass is a very clear term that relates to work done on the piece after it has cooled down. Trying to subset glass with a term like hot worked makes little sense and as seen above does sow confusion. Any process of forming glass has to be hot worked.

Surely there are enough basic process terms available already: Pressed, rolled, cast, spun, blown (with prefixes; machine-, free- (air-), mould- (mold-)), moulded (molded), lampworked (flameworked), and a few others for industrial processes. These can be supplemented with techniques used as a secondary stage, primarily to decorate while still hot. But all are hot worked.
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Jindra8526 on December 24, 2008, 10:06:02 AM
The terminology is not as easy as it looks.

Now you probably understand the difference between Czechoslovakia and Czech (and Slovak).

Bohemia (Bohemian) is another term. Czech republic (in history free Czech Kingdom and later Czech Kingdom as a part of Austrian monarchy) is composed from three parts: Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia. Bigger part of Silesia was lost in 18th century for Prussia.
In Bohemia live Czechs, in Moravia Moravians and in Silesia Silesians.

So the term Bohemia is designation for only western part of Czech republic, eastern is Moravia and north-east is a just bit of Silesia.

Now another complication:

Why Bohemian and not simply Czech? For thousand years, up to the end of WWII in Bohemia lives side by side Czechs and Germans making together the Bohemian state nation. Bohemian piece therefore mean that the origin of piece is in Bohemia, but it does not mean it was made by Czechs, it could also be fabricated by Czech-Germans. Truly most of glassworks was in German hands before WWII. Post war Czechoslovakia used "Bohemia glass" as a trade mark as marketing tricks. Most of Czech-Germans had to leave this counry in 1945 and 1946 (about 3 milions people) and whole glass industry was nationalised and given into Czech hands.

I would use term "Bohemian glass" for pieces made in this country before 1918 - Kralik, Loetz, Pallme-König.. etc. Than came period of "Czechoslovakian glass" and last few years we had "Czech glass".
Now we have nothing.  Czech glass industry is dead....

Jindrich
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: paradisetrader on December 24, 2008, 03:54:50 PM
I have found David's definition of "hot worked" most useful when talking about the type of glass produced by Skrdlovice and Chribska, especially when it's been unclear which of those factories produced the item.
I understand it to mean pieces which are significantly manipulated, usually by pulling and indenting the glass while hot in ways which may initially look almost random but on closer inspection have a basic pattern. Crucially each piece is unique in that it's not possible to replicate precisely the "pattern" by these hand methods.
There may be exceptions to this. It's an area I am still investigating on and off.

Back to the piece in question I fancy I have seen something similar on the Beranek website. I don't have the link to hand. I'm fairly sure Anne has it on her links pages.
Peter
   
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Jindra8526 on December 24, 2008, 05:17:00 PM
Škrdlovice web site is here:

http://www.beranekglass.com

The type we are speaking about is in Czech named "Hutní sklo", in German "Hüttenfertiges Glas", English simmilar equivalent I have not found.

Chřibska catalogue i nEnglish describes it follows:
 "off-hand shaped glass. In principle it comprises variously coloured products shaped by hand directly at the furnace. Manuall glass production founded on individual skills of the glassmakers.

Typical "Hutní sklo" fabricated in Chřibská, designed by Professor Hosef Hospodka see picture

Jindrich

Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: langhaugh on December 24, 2008, 07:19:50 PM
Thanks for the link, which is useful, especially the older catalogue in a pdf file. I tried using various translation machines for your term but the only thing any of them came up with was "metallurgical glass."

If you do digitize any of the catalogues, I'd love to have copies. I'd be happy to help in any way, although my computer skills are, to be kind to myself, limited.

Where do people find this type of glass? Most of mine comes form Canada, where,as I've said a few times, its advertised as Chalet,

David
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Carolyn Preston on December 24, 2008, 08:10:45 PM
Bohemia (Bohemian) is another term. Czech republic (in history free Czech Kingdom and later Czech Kingdom as a part of Austrian monarchy) is composed from three parts: Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia. Bigger part of Silesia was lost in 18th century for Prussia...So the term Bohemia is designation for only western part of Czech republic, eastern is Moravia and north-east is a just bit of Silesia.

But what about the glass (typically lead crystal) which is marked as "Bohemian" but is quite recent. The etched crystal pattern which I chose for my wedding present crystal is such a type of glass.

I believe we have a copy of the label in the label gallery... http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2962

Carolyn
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Frank on December 24, 2008, 09:40:44 PM
"Hutní sklo", in German "Hüttenfertiges Glas"

Literally that would be 'glassworks finished' but actually 'free-blown glass'.
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: TxSilver on December 25, 2008, 12:25:46 AM
But what about the glass (typically lead crystal) which is marked as "Bohemian" but is quite recent. The etched crystal pattern which I chose for my wedding present crystal is such a type of glass.

I believe we have a copy of the label in the label gallery... http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2962

Carolyn

I believe Czech either refers to Czechoslovakia if the glass is made 1918-1993 and the Czech Republic if made afterward. Before 1918, we had to use the distinct states of the area, e.g. Bohemia. Personally, for companies that are in Bohemia, I still prefer that term. We don't have to worry about if it was Austria, Czechoslovakia, or Czech Republic. The glassmakers and borders may have changed with the politics of the area, but that is true for much of Europe in the past two centuries.
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Jindra8526 on December 25, 2008, 09:38:18 AM
I did try to explain to you, thet Bohemia is designation for part of country - today Czech republic.

"Bohemian glass" is trade mark or marketing name for glass produced in Czechoslovakia and current Czech republic and has nothing to do with the place of origin, it can be produced also in Moravia. For example pieces from Rosice glassworks with label Bohemia Glass were made near the Brno, capital of Moravia.

So please do not mix place of origin with trade mark. (The same is with Pils or Pilsner beer). Original Pilsner beer comes from Pilsen, the town in western Bohemia :-).

It must not be so difficult for you. We also are able to understand that Edinburgh is not in England.

Arrogance "who takes a care" if Austria, Czechoslovakia, Czech republic is impertinent.

 
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: TxSilver on December 25, 2008, 11:56:35 AM
No slight or arrogance was intended. I should have added that if we know the company is in Bohemia, then using Bohemian to describe would not be wrong.
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Carolyn Preston on December 25, 2008, 09:08:56 PM
I did try to explain to you, thet Bohemia is designation for part of country - today Czech republic.

"Bohemian glass" is trade mark or marketing name for glass produced in Czechoslovakia and current Czech republic and has nothing to do with the place of origin, it can be produced also in Moravia. For example pieces from Rosice glassworks with label Bohemia Glass were made near the Brno, capital of Moravia.

So please do not mix place of origin with trade mark. (The same is with Pils or Pilsner beer). Original Pilsner beer comes from Pilsen, the town in western Bohemia :-).

It must not be so difficult for you. We also are able to understand that Edinburgh is not in England.

Thank you so much for this information. I've discussed these glasses on the forum before, (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,23519.0.html) trying to determine if they were etched, engraved or whatever. In that discussion, I have told of a small oddity in that my grandfather had glasswear of the same time which I believe came from his first marriage (to my grandmother). Of course, I have no way of know if they belong to the same "Bohemian" brand that my current glasses do or not. In another message thread, I mentioned that the brand was Balfor, but the label has "Bohemia" on it.

Now I'm confusing myself.

Carolyn
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: krsilber on December 26, 2008, 06:55:41 AM
Moderators:  Would it be appropriate to combine some of the posts concerning Czech and Slovak place names in one new thread?  It seems like the discussion is now spread among a few threads.

Quote
It must not be so difficult for you. We also are able to understand that Edinburgh is not in England.

I don't think anyone means any disrespect by the terms we are used to using for glass made in what are now the Czech and Slovak Republics.  Comparing it to knowing that Edinburgh isn't in England is a bit of an oversimplification I think, since Edinburgh never was in England, while the name of your "region" (for lack of a better word) has changed several times in the last 100 years.  In order to use the appropriate name, one must first know the date and location a piece was made - often a challenge in itself.  Different books call the same area by different names depending on when they were written.  Add to that the use of both German and Czech place names and the fact that some current companies have "Bohemia" or "Moravia" in their trademarks or describe their glass as "Bohemian" and the picture gets even muddier.  Even Viennese-designed glass is often described by the general term, "Bohemian."

So, I ask Jindrich to please have some patience with us!  It is confusing!

Quote
I believe Czech either refers to Czechoslovakia if the glass is made 1918-1993 and the Czech Republic if made afterward.
Just so Jindrich doesn't have to go over it, I realized in another thread that this is not quite true.  "Czech" isn't an adequate short term for Czechoslovakian at any point because it excludes the Slovakian part.

Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: TxSilver on December 26, 2008, 10:18:53 PM
The conversation in the different threads has been fascinating to me. I knew a good bit about the changes in the region in the 19-20th Century, but had concentrated mainly on the first 30 years of the 20th Century. I knew little about the post-WWII struggles of the glass industry. I have read what Jindra wrote and hunted down references that were available on the web. This is not an easy task -- there is so little in English that is easy to find. I learned that many of the companies had been sold to people in other countries, particularly France. This is rarely a good sign, because often the new owners lack the sentimental attachments needed to save or revive a company.

I am afraid we would be the proverbial salmon swimming upstream if we try to get the "Czech" classification dropped for glass made 1918 and after. I understand Jindra's words and agree with him about the historical importance. The states of the region have had a difficult past that was very cruel at times. The bankrupcies of the past ten years seem to be a continuation of the difficulties. The area will bounce back, I am sure. It always has.
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: paradisetrader on December 28, 2008, 05:23:57 PM
Jindrich, as to us UK people, you are dealing with a very lazy bunch, I'm afraid, who are even  confused about our own national identity.  We have so many names for our country and our nation that we don't even realise the differences ourselves. English doesn't really exist as an identity yet for decades we have thoughtlessly used English when we mean British. Very few people know which of the British Isles belong to the UK. Scotland is often referred to as a country. Wales is a principality and Northern Ireland a province. In general we have little patience with these fine distinctions.

However, there is growing interest in the glass of your country. Gradually glass collectors will learn to distinguish the differences in your name but it will take a while. In the meantime Czechoslovakian in an Ebay title is just too long and leaves room for little else. I do use the whole word in the description if appropriate as do some others. As a buyer I have had reason, many times, to question a seller on what it actually says on their label; Czechoslovakia or Czech Republic. I have seen items with a Czech Republic label described as Art Deco! (I'm not talking about Desna repros of Hoffman & Schlevogt pieces) It's impossible to tell if that is deliberate obfuscation, ignorance or just indifference.

Initially, even I found it confusing as someone who knew already knew something about the Velvet Divorce and the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Bohemia label. So yes patience please and thank you for all your help and your invaluable perspective as a Czech. We value that greatly.
Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: Jindra8526 on December 28, 2008, 05:55:20 PM
Well Pete and TxSilver,
I understand the issue. Our country is so small in fact, that we glass collectors know each other well, we meets on Saturdays at the same market in Prague :-)
You should note that when I will drive with car any direction from my home village near Prague, I am within 2 hours on the border to Germany, Austria, Poland or Slovakia. :-)

The after WWII history is briefly but very exactly described in Marcus's Newhall Sklo Union book.

If you want to know more amout the Czech nation history, let me know, I will find some sources.

Jindrich

Title: Re: perhaps sklo union......hot worked
Post by: krsilber on December 28, 2008, 07:33:17 PM
You could fit 125 Czech Republics in the USA.  I'm envious of the amazing amount and diversity of glass, glassmaking and glass history you've got packed in that little country.

I was in Prague for a week in 1988.  Beautiful city!!!