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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Austria => Topic started by: Glen on October 22, 2005, 11:03:55 AM

Title: Letters on my glass - DRGM - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on October 22, 2005, 11:03:55 AM
Has anyone seen the moulded letters
ORGM
or it could be
DRGM
on a piece of press-moulded glass?

Any idea what they could be? I believe the piece was made circa 1930s and almost certainly Czech.

1. Edited to add....I just "googled" and found some glass items marked as DRGM. Some seem to indicated Germany. My confusion now lies in the fact that I believe the pressed pattern on this item was made by Rindskopf in Czechoslovakia. So why DRGM? (Deutsches Republic Germany????? Please note I don't DO German very well).

2. Second edit....I am answering my own questions. Sorry!
Deutsches Reich Gebrauchs Muster?

I am finding this stamp on all sorts of items. Has anyone seen it on a piece of pressed glass?

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: pamela on October 22, 2005, 11:39:31 AM
http://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/tafelaufsaetze/01335.html
Hi Glen, yes second edit is it
the above candle holder bears also this and additionally a number -
DRGM was the register to hold copyright of the pattern - same as your Rd.s
Bohemia at that time was part of Deutsches Reich.
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on October 22, 2005, 12:00:55 PM
Thanks Pamela (and Bernard for the thought...)

Now a couple of further questions, please.

Pamela - what is the exact meaning of Gebrauchs Muster? Could it apply to - say - a patent for a basic design shape (form)?

As I said, what confuses me about my glass piece is this....I am fairly sure that the pattern on the glass (not the shape and form) is Czech. I know the pattern from the Rindskopf catalogues.

But I suspect maybe the actual shape and form of the item (it is an unusual and complex shape) was registered / designed in Germany.

So, is it possible that the form was a German design (Deutsches Reich Gebrauchs Muster) and the glass was made in Czechoslovakia?

I have not seen any other Rindskopf pieces with DRGM on.

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Ivo on October 22, 2005, 12:59:51 PM
Deutsches Reich Geschützte Marke according to my info. Is it Gebrauchsmuster?
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on October 22, 2005, 01:42:28 PM
Thanks for the further info everyone. I suspect this item dates from before 1938. I do believe that it was actually made (poured) by Rindskopf and it is undoubtedly in a pattern line (Inverted Prisms) that they made.

The form (shape) however is most unusual and is not shown in any of their catalogues. The form IS, however, shown in Brockwitz catalogues (it is a most unusual and complex mould).

I now suspect that the form is a registered German design but that the glass itself was "poured" in Czechoslovakia. What I don't know is if the mould was actually made in Germany - or if the mould was made in Czechoslovakia under some sort of agreement/licence. I was hoping the meaning of the letters DRGM might give me that answer.

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Frank on October 22, 2005, 01:51:47 PM
Possibly just like Jules Lang in the UK an importer registered the design but did not get the number before the mould was cast.

Has anyone done a trawl of the German design registry for lass entries?
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Ivo on October 22, 2005, 01:57:38 PM
Quote from: "Glen"

I now suspect that the form is a registered German design but that the glass itself was "poured" in Czechoslovakia. What I don't know is if the mould was actually made in Germany - or if the mould was made in Czechoslovakia under some sort of agreement/licence.
Glen


It does not really matter where the mould was made - it is sufficient that the design was registered for the important German market. Could be Rindskopf protecting itself against a German competitor, could be a German model owner commissioning from Rindskopf and protecting itself against Czech parallel imports.
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on October 22, 2005, 02:31:28 PM
Thanks Ivo and Frank.

The form is very unusual (and clever) so I feel it must be some sort of registered German design. It makes sense that the market would be aimed at Germany- though the piece was actually found in the USA  :shock:

What would Geschützte mean? Does anyone know for certain what those letters stand for?

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Frank on October 22, 2005, 03:02:49 PM
Quote from: "Ivo"
Deutsches Reich Geschützte Marke according to my info. Is it Gebrauchsmuster?


Deutsches Reich Gebrauchsmusterschutz from Googling

see also http://www.dhm.de/magazine/schoenstein/texte/patent.html
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on October 22, 2005, 03:24:14 PM
Thank you - thank you - thank you.

I'll post an article and photos of this fascinating piece very soon - and I'd be honored if I may acknowledge everyone's help.

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: pamela on October 22, 2005, 04:52:29 PM
Gebrauch - use
Muster - depends: can be sample or pattern 
gesetzlich - by law
geschützt - in this case copyright

schützen is a verb - to shelter, to protect
the noun is 'Schutz'

also animals and plants may be 'geschützt'

Glen you will find more information regarding DRGM in Pressglas-Korrespondenz - Arnold Becker, Berlin investigated a lot on this subject. Just indicate here issue of interest and I will be happy to try to translate!

Looking very much forward to your pictures!
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on October 22, 2005, 06:04:22 PM
Pamela - many thanks. I understand now that it is a German Patent Design. That makes good sense as it is such an unusual item to find in glass (and a complex mould).

Thank you for your offer to translate (re PK). The problem is I am not really sure where to begin  :oops:

The main thing I want to discover is who made the mould. Rindskopf in Czechoslovakia (using a German Registered Patent) or perhaps Brockwitz or another mould maker in Germany (who had registered and held the patent). I am not sure if it is possible to discover that.

Thank you again.

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: pamela on November 02, 2005, 09:06:16 PM
Glen, perhaps it is only me who is interested, but would you be so kind to issue a photo of the DRGM item in question please?
Thank you!
BW PW
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on November 02, 2005, 09:57:19 PM
Pamela - yes I will be doing that shortly. Steve plans to take photos of the item and we will be writing a short feature on it as it is a most unusual piece of glass. We haven't had time to take the photos yet (life is a little bit pressured at the moment) but hope to get it done soon.

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on November 06, 2005, 08:39:29 PM
Pamela - Steve has taken a host of photos of the piece. I hope to resize and post them all in an article about the piece tomorrow. Meanwhile here are two quick images of the letters moulded onto the base of the item.

http://tinypic.com/fdgap4.jpg

http://tinypic.com/fdgdoj.jpg

More very soon.

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on November 07, 2005, 05:39:59 PM
Pamela....I've done it at last  :D

The article is here
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/Tea.html
You can also access it directly from my website.

Thank you Pamela, and Frank and Ivo for your help with the DRGM letters. I have acknowledged your wonderful assistance at the foot of the article.

Can anyone tell me if they have seen an item like this before? Iridised or not.

I believe they are called stovchen today.

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Connie on November 08, 2005, 10:08:31 AM
Great article, Glen.  I really enjoyed it.
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Anne on November 08, 2005, 01:51:26 PM
Fascinating, thank you Glen. I hadn't realised pot warmers were as old as this. I have two of the modern clear glass ones and t'other Anne (I think?) has one as well...  but they're nowhere near as snazzy as the Carnival ones! 
http://yobunny.org.uk/gallery1/displayimage.php?pos=-187
http://yobunny.org.uk/gallery1/displayimage.php?pos=-188
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Ivo on November 08, 2005, 02:22:12 PM
Quote from: "Glen"

Can anyone tell me if they have seen an item like this before? Iridised or not.
I believe they are called stovchen today.
Glen


Those are a very familiar sight in this country, it used to be an essential piece of household glass - the tea stove.

"Waxine" candles (from "wax"and paraffine" were introduced in Holland by Ericus Gerhardus Verkade.  He bought the patent from his son in law, the briton Morris Fowler. Verkade started production of small paraffin candles in 1898. Initial sales were not brilliant, but production continued for 90 years. A votive candle is Dutch is called a "Waxinelichtje" - officially in the dictionary since 1984.  In 1991 the factory was sold to candle maker Bolsius. These "waxine"lights were predominantly used in little stoves for keeping the tea warm. Every household had one.  Go to any market in Holland now and you can pick up glass tea stoves in all varieties. I believe a lot were made by Leerdam, but others were imported. I remember my grandmother had one in what I now know is the Jacobean pattern.
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on November 08, 2005, 02:46:19 PM
Connie - thank you.

Anne - what interesting tea warmers. Coincidentally, an American- German friend of mine send me a pic of a very similar one today too. Thanks, for the info, Anne

Ivo - many thanks for the social history. I always find that aspect of glass collecting especially interesting. The Jacobean one sounds wonderful. Now, have you or anyone else ever seen a Carnival Glass one before? If there are any others "out there" I would love to know about the.

A friend in the USA who read my article last night contacted me to say that he has had the glass part of the item for several years (no metal top) and wondered what it could be. he thought perhaps it was meant to be the bottom of an electric lamp, with the holes in the bottom for the electric wires.

Thanks again for your help and comments, everyone.

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: pamela on November 08, 2005, 08:09:06 PM
Glen, what a beautiful item - thank you for sharing it with us  :D

Ivo named it stove and that is the North German word Stövchen (Stoevchen) which is diminuating a stove  by '-chen' to a small one.

Yours is the one and only I ever saw in Carnival glass.

I have got two in pink:
one is Brockwitz 1936 Tafel 90 Teewärmer - neither DRGM nor any other mark

the other one is Stölzle Oberglas marked OG

both have that small 'Waxine' pressed glass item for the candle

three further pink items are 'food warmers' - Speisenwärmer oval shaped with two lights: one Brockwitz (unmarked) and two Stölzle (marked)

(I shall hurry up to upload them on www.pressglas-pavillon.de - do not know where the photos vanished  :roll:  )

Pattern: Yours really looks Rindskopf!

Reading PK 2002-3, 2002-5 and 2003-1 and the forewords of SG to the Rindskopf Musterbücher I'd like to post here:
1) Rindskopf collapsed in 1927 - there is also a MB for 1934 - could mean: still working for others
2) INWALD bought at least part of Rindskopf in ca. 1936
Please look there also: Inwald 1928 Tafel 82 ff. 'Service ohne Namen' (set without name) and Tafel 117 Russische Steinel (Russian stones/diamonds) On the latter you see a STÖVCHEN 8631 to the lower left!
3) an important share of iridisized glass from these manufacturers was exported to England
4) Investigating DRGM in PK, mainly contributions of Arnold Becker www.pressglas.de , I was not very successful I'm afraid and nothing to trans -late -port here
5)Do you remember the great singer Sam Cooke - he sung :
I don't know about HISTORY, I don't know Trigonometry......science book...French I took...what a wonderful world this could be! (or similar  :oops:  )
Best wishes!
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: pamela on November 08, 2005, 08:15:26 PM
Ohh, I forgot to mention:
IMHO your DRGM patented the PATTERN, not the shape or usage!  :lol:
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on November 09, 2005, 10:36:39 AM
Pamela  - thank you very much for your interesting comments about your tea warmers (stövchen). I will look forward to seeing your photos of them.

I note the Inwald tea warmer you mentioned. It can be seen in Heacock's Collecting Glass Vol 3. 1986. Page 78, table 117. There is another one shown in the same 1986  volume which is surely the one Ivo's grandmother had - Jacobean pattern, page 74, table 99.

I must admit to being a little confused about your notes regarding Rindskopf and your references to PK 2002 and 2003. The discovery of Rindskopf as a major manufacturer of Carnival Glass was mine (2000). First published in our A Century of Carnival Glass (Schiffer 2001, though actually released late 2000). Also recorded in various Carnival Glass journals in 2001; further information in Czechoslovakian Carnival Part One: Inwald & Rindskopf (Thistlewood, 2002) and updated to include much photographic evidence about the Rindskopf factory on my website here > http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/RindskopfHome.html

And in your point 3 you wrote "an important share of iridised glass from these manufacturers was exported to England" Yes, I know that. The research is mine. I have documented it, written about it and lectured on it.

Czech Carnival (from both Rindskopf and Inwald) is found in the UK, mainland Europe (Belgium and France have produced some great items) the USA, Australia and South America.

Interestingly, the "Inverted Prisms" tea warmer that is the subject of this thread, was actually found in Oklahoma, USA (I purchased it from there). I have since discovered that another one (without the metal top) was found in Pennsylvania, USA. I am not aware of any tea warmers being found in the United Kingdom.

I'm glad you agree with me that my tea warmer looks like Rindskopf. It is undoubtedly theirs, in my opinion. However I must disagree with you regarding your final comment in which you noted that "IMHO your DRGM patented the PATTERN, not the shape or usage". That doesn't follow to me. Why would only this shape have the DRGM on? No other items that I am aware of in Rindskopf's "Inverted Prisms" pattern have DRGM on them. If the patent was for the pattern then it would be on other shapes in the "Inverted Prisms" range - and it isn't. In fact I am not aware of any other Carnival items from Rindskopf (or anyone else) that bears the DRGM. The only two pieces I know of are the two tea warmers. So, at the moment, my feelings are that the patent applies to the shape (and not the "Inverted Prisms" pattern).

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on November 09, 2005, 01:59:19 PM
A bit of further information on Inwald's Jacobean range - and what was selected for import (and production) in England.

I've been looking through a pamphlet that shows the huge range of Jacobean glass items that were on sale in the UK at the zenith of the pattern's popularity. Seems there were around 300 shapes on offer, including curiosities such as toothbrush racks, cocktail shakers and chubby sugar sifters (not sure if that referred to the user or the shape  :shock: ). Yet there is not a tea warmer in sight. (I wonder why the British didn't... still don't... use them?)

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Frank on November 09, 2005, 03:19:42 PM
Quote from: "Glen"
(I wonder why the British didn't... still don't... use them?)Glen


Gran used a trivet, hooked on the front of an open fire, for the kettle to boil up and then teapot to stay hot.

Mother used a tea-cosy.
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on November 09, 2005, 03:50:25 PM
Frank - yes - a teacosy. Of course. As teabags rule in so many households today, I wonder how many people actually still use teacosies?

Another "wondering" I have had is this one: how many of these glass tea warmers must have broken with the heat or with the weight (of the pot)? A related Carnival Glass item is the Candle Lamp (Northwood made a fabulous one in their "Grape & Cable" pattern). It consisted of a candlestick (in which one inserted a wax candle) and a metal fitment that supported a glass shade above the flame. It's a rare item today, no doubt because many must have been broken in use.

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Frank on November 09, 2005, 04:08:47 PM
All of the pressed glass candlesticks that I have owned got cracked through use. Again I got lots in my shop in the 80's but they sold for peanuts so I kept them as I used loads of candles. Somewhere I still have a pair but cracked. I presume these would be collectable nowadays.
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on November 09, 2005, 04:32:43 PM
One of the most beautiful candlesticks I've ever seen is the iridised (marigold Carnival) Jesus candlestick by Brockwitz.

http://tinypic.com/fjl0js.jpg

And as an aside, re. the Grape and Cable candlelamp I mentioned, the candlesticks in the pattern are hard to find. But the glass shades are really hard to find. I imagine that having the flame right alongside them must have been a real problem!

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: pamela on November 09, 2005, 07:29:33 PM
Glen, my sincere apologies: I could not read from SG's PK that all this knowledge originates from your side - a real mess: I tried to translate you back to English... Do not understand why in his PK he is not clearly citing you but issued it as his own knowledge?! :(
Again: I feel very sorry!
Pamela
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on November 09, 2005, 07:36:36 PM
Oh Pamela, no need to be sorry. I just wanted to let you know. That's all  :D

I wish I could read German (I truly admire your ability to read English). I can see that Seigmar does note, as references, our "Century of Carnival" and the Czech Special. I corresponded with Siegmar and Bob Smith (my co-researcher) over many months. It's a long story, and for me it was a fascinating time. I likened it, at the time, as if I was walking on fresh white snow. The discovery that Rindskopf was a major Carnival producer was sensational.

Thanks again for all your help.

And a PS. The song you quoted by Sam Cooke..... is soooo good. My all time favourite rendition of it is in the film "Witness". Simply wonderful.
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Frank on November 09, 2005, 08:40:09 PM
Much as it is ideal, it is very hard to keep track of all sources when writing. I keep a couple of tables of dates, people and companies on my site that are fully source referenced, and cross checked where possible, and try to always cite the most significant sources when I can. But even with that it is hard to keep everything synchronised and inconsistencies can appear between different parts of the data. Some stuff comes from memory too and my memory is awful at maintaining references to the sources.

If someone jogs my memory, I am always happy to add or update source references. I am sure that SG would behave appropriately.
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on November 09, 2005, 08:55:37 PM
I have enormous respect for Seigmar. He has done so much for pressed glass research. He is a great man.

It truly doesn't worry me if SG references me or not. It's not important. I only wanted to explain in this context what I had done and that I really did know about Rindskopf  :D

I have probably done the same thing myself too. Although I have to admit I tend to err the other way. I try to include everyone. On the front inside cover of our last NetworK journal I listed so many people who had helped over the 8 years of production that I ran out of room on the page.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Glen

And so, just to show what I mean....
thanks to:
Pamela, Frank, Ivo, Marcus, Peter, Leni, Anne, Anne, Kev, Adam, Adam, Max, Tiger, Angela, Bernard, Connie, Chris, Cathy, David, Ray.....and everyone else on the GMB.
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: pamela on January 22, 2006, 04:32:09 PM
Glen, I do update this because it is unforgettable  :D
Searching for another pattern today (in fact Angela B's butterfly), I traced Reich 1934 Tafel 75 # 8739 and just want to send it here today (prior to reading, whether we talked about it earlier  :oops: )

Another hint could be Scandinavia, the prisms of your stoevchen do very much look like a footed bowl given to me from Sweden last Christmas - link to follow - sorry, but we are in January still

... and latest updates today of my site did not include Christmas 2005
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on January 22, 2006, 06:48:32 PM
Pamela - I've just returned home (busy weekend) and seen this from you - many thanks.

I also have an update on this piece - and I will post it on my website very soon (I just need a little time...where does it go?  :shock: ) I have found the item in an Inwald 1914 catalog extract that I received some years ago from Milan Hlaves (Prague Museum of Decorative Arts). It is almost identical, but there are some small differences. I'll try and write it all out with the illustration, as soon as I can.

Thanks again.

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: Glen on January 25, 2006, 02:01:02 PM
Pamela - I've fully updated the article  :lol:

http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/Tea.html

Glen
Title: Letters on my glass - 'tis a Mystery
Post by: pamela on January 25, 2006, 06:11:29 PM
Thank you Glen !
I need more time to re-read and investigate what I have got here. Fact is that pages of Neumann's 1915 Brockwitz catalogue are missing in PK, which SG sometimes does judging them to be not too important and necessary for all of his readers.