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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Scandinavian Glass => Topic started by: jakgene on April 20, 2010, 12:12:38 PM

Title: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: jakgene on April 20, 2010, 12:12:38 PM
Bought this (I think ) stunning vase recently on EBay Aus. described as possibly Murano. It has a look to me similar to the Pompadour range by Nanny Stilll, or I have also seen an Elme Glasbruk one for sale - almost identical but slightly different top. I have lent out some of my books, and can't find it in Fire and Ice or on the web. Does anyone know who made it. The base has lots of rings on it which I am sure I have heard mentioned before (but I am ashamed to say can't remember in what context)

even if it is a Japanese copy I still like it however  :)
Any help/comments appreciated.

Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: glassobsessed on April 20, 2010, 08:38:20 PM
I don't think it is Pompadour, see here: http://www.designlasi.com/en/esinehaku?keys=pompadour&tid_2=All&tid_5=All&tid_1=All&tid_3=All&tid_4=All

I think it may be one of the German glassmakers but my mind has gone blank. ::) Usually see them in green with white inside.

John
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: jakgene on April 21, 2010, 01:04:16 AM
Thanks John - I agree, I had already looked at the Pompadour photos available on Google, and it is not quite the same. 

this item currently on ebay looks almost identical though - described as probably Elme glasbruk  http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Elme-Glasbruk-1960s-Scandinavian-Blue-Hooped-Glass-Vase_W0QQitemZ120551042754QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Art_Glass?hash=item1c1166eec2 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Elme-Glasbruk-1960s-Scandinavian-Blue-Hooped-Glass-Vase_W0QQitemZ120551042754QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Art_Glass?hash=item1c1166eec2)

Do the base rings mean anything? I am sure I have seen the effect elsewhere but can't remember where.

JAK

Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: glassobsessed on April 21, 2010, 08:39:47 AM
The 'base rings' are a result of the production process, probably formed as the hot glass cooled. If there are concentric and distinctly moulded rings like the photo below then I would suspect a Tamara Aladin design.

The attributions of that ebay seller are not to be relied upon (much commented upon on this board before).

Here's a possibility re your vase: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,20546.0.html

Is there a moderator lurking in the shadows, maybe a move to glass for this thread would help?

John
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: jakgene on April 21, 2010, 11:31:56 AM
Thanks John - that link is good - same shape vase - but very different colours. The base rings on mine are quite pronounced like your photo - can be felt with fingertips, but  even so it stands well.  I have a signed Tamara Aladin vase and the quality and feel of the glass is similar - but Hirschberg I haven't seen before, so have nothing to compare to there - seems to be very little on the web either. And thanks for the tip on the sellers attributions.
Thanks again. JAK

Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: robert1960 on April 21, 2010, 04:01:38 PM
Hi
 Here is your vase next to a genuine Pompadour vase of roughly the same size
 You can see the differences.

Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: Ivo on April 21, 2010, 05:48:59 PM
there are more variations on the same theme, some of them Kaj Franck...
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: robert1960 on April 21, 2010, 06:38:45 PM
Yes, these vases of 'baluster' form were popular in the 60s and 70s
For reference, here is the full range of Riihmaki Pompadour vases, as far as I know
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: px on April 21, 2010, 09:00:08 PM
Great way of putting it, Robert, when you see pics side-by-side like that!  :hiclp:

The one with out rounded mouth seems to be prod.number 1404, probably produced only in 1967-68, heights 20, 22,and even 27 cm (?)
The one referred to in this thread is prod.number 1945. Picture found in the reprint of Riihimäen lasi pricelists of the time, but no longer in e.g. 1974 pricelist.Elsewhere it is also stated that these would have been produced in years 1967-73 in heights 22 & 28cm
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: jakgene on April 28, 2010, 07:44:46 AM
Thanks Everyone for your comments and especially PX for the ID as Rihimaen - I hope I read that correctly?

Don't know why but I didn't get notified of more comments so have only just seen them. Thanks again. Jackie
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: Wayne on April 28, 2010, 10:42:40 PM
Hi, just wanted to say that the ebay item mentioned is mine, and as some doubt is being cast over my attributions, I'd like the opportunity to defend myself.  I always try to research the glassware I sell, and describe it to the best of my ability. Also I am more than happy to be corrected if someone thinks I have made a mistake.

Anyway, some reasons why I attributed that vase to "probably Elme Glasbruk"..

Firstly, a link to a thread on this forum about this particular design, where the verdict seemed to me to be "probably Elme":
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4419.msg35649.html#msg35649 (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4419.msg35649.html#msg35649)

Secondly, a link to another reputable glass dealer selling the same vase, described as Elme Glassbruk, without the "probably" by the way:
http://www.pips-trip.co.uk/sold-glass-archives/scandinavian-glass-1/showitem-AELME-ORANGE1.aspx (http://www.pips-trip.co.uk/sold-glass-archives/scandinavian-glass-1/showitem-AELME-ORANGE1.aspx)

I hope this clears things up a little, and if anyone feels any of my other listings are misleading, you are more than welcome to email me and put me straight.  ;D
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: Pinkspoons on April 29, 2010, 01:12:58 AM
Firstly, the cased baluster vase thread you quote is an old old posting. Since then it's been firmly established - and frequently mentioned - that the majority of them are German, with some hailing from China. Pip's listing was also created back when knowledge on them was sketchy and Elme seemed the best fit - it sold long ago, and so clearly updating has been overlooked.

Secondly, with regards contacting you for correcting your attributions, you did, for a few years, list hundreds of cased glass items as "Holmegaard", when clearly they were not - majority of them were inexpensive Chinese pieces of dubious quality. I contacted you on more than one occasion to indicate this, and received no reply. In the end I had to just tweak my search parameters so that it stopped your listings from flooding my page.

Finally, as to the "best of your ability" enrolled in describing your glass - the red cased vase with the 'foreign' label that's at the end of the old thread you quote above was much later sold by me on eBay - correctly attributed to Hirschberg, if I remember rightly - and you bought it for the fairly nugatory sum that it was actually worth. The next week it appeared in your sales, with the label peeled off, and was listed as "Holmegaard" at a greatly-inflated price.

I don't like airing this, particularly, as it is between you and your conscience what your private business practices are - but if you lay false claim to due diligence in a public forum then a public rebuttal is not entirely out of order.
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: px on April 29, 2010, 05:31:09 AM
Thanks Everyone for your comments and especially PX for the ID as Rihimaen - I hope I read that correctly?

Don't know why but I didn't get notified of more comments so have only just seen them. Thanks again. Jackie


No no, jakgene.  The others are experts, not me. And even I wouldn't think it is Riihimäen. Sorry. :(
Sorry for my bad English and way of putting it if you misunderstood. I just wanted to give some additional info (part numbers) for further IDs to Roberts pictures that, I think, so clearly show the Riihimäen shapes for comparison.

(you might have chosen that you only get one notification of new posts to a thread and not of all separately?)
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: Wayne on April 29, 2010, 08:41:25 AM
Hi Nic, thanks for your response.  I guess it does explain things, it does paint a pretty bad picture.

I will hold my hand up and admit that for a while, I did go along with what seemed to be the "norm" on ebay, putting "Holmegaard" or "Holmegaard?" in the title for coloured cased glass, "Loetz" in the title for Art Nouveau glass, etc.  Usually in the description I would try to state the likelihood that it was Holmegaard, i.e. "possibly", "probably", or list other possible manufacturers.  As I grew more knowledgeable and came across manufacturers such as Elme, Alsterfors, Ekenas etc I realised how many listings on ebay, including my own, were inaccurate, and I have since tried to correct these mistakes.

From time to time people do email me to point out an error in a listing, and I am always willing to update a listing for better accuracy, especially if their claims can be verified, and have done so several times.  I honestly do not remember you emailing me Nic, but if for whatever reason I didn't respond, I am sorry for that.

I also really don't remember buying the red vase listed as Hirschberg, and relisting it as Holmegaard.  If this happened then it certainly wasn't on purpose.  I buy a lot of glass from ebay, and it used to be quite a while till I got around to relisting it.  Maybe I forgot about your original description and just went along with listing it in my usual way back then.  Also if I removed the label then it was probably because I felt a partial "Foreign" label wasn't all that important, or maybe I didn't remove it, but didn't show it in the description.

If it is agreed now that this design (the one shown in the ebay listing) is by Hirschberg, I will of course update any current listings, and I am grateful for the correct attribution.
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: glassobsessed on April 29, 2010, 04:16:59 PM
Wayne, just had a brief look at some of your items for sale and your attributions are better than they were the last time I looked (quite a while ago).

My apologies for my rather general statement earlier in the thread.

It should I guess be pointed out that new information crops up from time to time and as a result knowledge about certain items changes and attributions get 'updated'. One of the best places to hear about the current state of play is here on this message board given the broad range of people from various nationalities who post here (thank you to everyone from me ;D).

John
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: Wayne on April 29, 2010, 04:33:12 PM
Thanks John.  I will try to keep an eye on posts at this forum more often, it is definitely the best place to find accurate attributions, and I trust the opinions here more than most books out there.
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: Cathy B on May 03, 2010, 12:04:36 AM
Identifying glass is not easy (as this thread shows), and the standard on eBay is appalling, so good on you Wayne for making the effort.

Meanwhile, could someone update this thread (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4419.msg35649.html#msg35649)?
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: Pip on July 28, 2010, 08:35:19 AM
Hi, just wanted to say that the ebay item mentioned is mine, and as some doubt is being cast over my attributions, I'd like the opportunity to defend myself.  I always try to research the glassware I sell, and describe it to the best of my ability. Also I am more than happy to be corrected if someone thinks I have made a mistake.

Anyway, some reasons why I attributed that vase to "probably Elme Glasbruk"..

Firstly, a link to a thread on this forum about this particular design, where the verdict seemed to me to be "probably Elme":
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4419.msg35649.html#msg35649 (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4419.msg35649.html#msg35649)

Secondly, a link to another reputable glass dealer selling the same vase, described as Elme Glassbruk, without the "probably" by the way:
http://www.pips-trip.co.uk/sold-glass-archives/scandinavian-glass-1/showitem-AELME-ORANGE1.aspx (http://www.pips-trip.co.uk/sold-glass-archives/scandinavian-glass-1/showitem-AELME-ORANGE1.aspx)

I hope this clears things up a little, and if anyone feels any of my other listings are misleading, you are more than welcome to email me and put me straight.  ;D

Hi there, have only just caught up with this thread!  Wayne, so sorry for unintentionally misleading you re: my 'Elme' attribution. That was arrived at with help from this forum quite some years ago when information was patchy, the item also sold a few years ago and I'm afraid I've rather neglected to update my archive - I've known for a while that these are Hirschberg production.  Huge apologies - I really must set time aside to go through my archives with a fine toothcomb and correct any old inconsistencies and errors.

I'm really glad to see you're taking the time to get to grips with your attributions - as you know I have contacted you in the past but was never really sure if offering information to you was welcomed so stopped.  I've learned an awful lot from the experienced people on this board and investing in good (usually expensive unfortunately) reference books helps greatly also.

Best of luck.
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 28, 2010, 08:51:02 AM
Pip  :hi: We've missed you  :hug:
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: Wayne on July 28, 2010, 08:58:38 AM
Hi Pip, no problem at all honestly, it can easily happen.  Help with attribution is always welcome.  I keep all the emails I receive from people who help me out, for reference.  I still have an email from you when you helped me out with a Hermanova Hut vase back in 2007.  :thup:
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: Pip on July 28, 2010, 03:28:17 PM
Christine :hi:

Wayne, was it really 2007 - crumbs doesn't time fly!
Title: Re: Still Pompadour? or Elme Glasbruk? or a copy ? ID help please
Post by: Wayne on May 28, 2011, 02:06:32 PM
Just an update - I now believe the vase in the original post, and the vases described as Elme, then Hirschberg, are actually Japanese, having found one with a Japan label.

(http://www.20thcenturyglass.com/images/glassmessages/thumbs/hooped_vases.jpg) (http://www.20thcenturyglass.com/images/glassmessages/hooped_vases.jpg) (http://www.20thcenturyglass.com/images/items/scandanavian_glass/other_glass/hooped/thumbs/scandinavianglass_hoopb08.jpg) (http://www.20thcenturyglass.com/images/items/scandanavian_glass/other_glass/hooped/scandinavianglass_hoopb08.jpg)

More details in this thread (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,39516.msg226141.html#msg226141).

The design seems to be the same, although the proportions + casing are different.  Any thoughts?