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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Bernard C on September 26, 2010, 01:39:49 AM

Title: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Bernard C on September 26, 2010, 01:39:49 AM
(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF1031.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF1031.jpg)          (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF1032.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF1032.jpg)

Click either image to enlarge.

H. 9¾" 24.8cm, rim d. 4 7/8" 12.5cm, foot d. 4 1/8" 10.5cm, w. 2lb 12½oz 1277g.

Not just one but two geometric designs broken by each other and by Jack Lloyd's botanical engraving.   Signed "J Lloyd" and acid-stamped "MADE IN / Tudor / ENGLAND".   Plenty of foot wear.

This looks mildly Deco to me, suggesting a 1930s date, but it could be later.

See topic Tudor Crystal bowl signed J Lloyd (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,36261.0.html) with much better photographs than mine!   Note that BGbtW gives a 1930s date to the mark "MADE IN / Tudor / ENGLAND".

Enlightenment welcomed.

Thanks for your interest,

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Leni on September 27, 2010, 10:05:52 AM
Saw this in the 'flesh' at the Glass Fair yesterday, and I have to say it's a magnificent piece!  :o  :thud:

As for date, I have to agree with Bernard that the design is very typically Deco, and I shall be interested to hear whether it is possible to pin down a date in the 1930's rather than later! 

Nice one, Bernard!  :hiclp:
Title: Re: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Bernard C on September 28, 2010, 02:46:07 AM
Leni — Thanks for your comments.

After I spoke to you, Leni, I was shown a much later "J Lloyd" signature at the Cambridge fair.   Apparently in later life he hotted up his signature by making it a little blobby, not as extreme as that of Jak (http://www.jakthecartoonist.com/biog.html) the Evening Standard cartoonist, but heading that way.   Unfortunately I've yet to discover when his signature went arty, but it was certainly post-war.

It is worth noting here that apparently in later years he was happy to add his signature to his unsigned earlier work, so his signature on a piece could be much later than the decoration.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Leni on September 28, 2010, 07:49:41 AM
Ooo!  My Jack Lloyd signature isn't at all blobby, so that means my piece is early!  ;) 

I would love to see more examples of his work and the varying signatures!   :D  Thanks for the information, Bernard   :kissy:



Title: Re: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Bernard C on September 28, 2010, 08:20:10 AM
...   My Jack Lloyd signature isn't at all blobby, so that means my piece is early!   ...

No it doesn't, it just means that it predates the introduction of his arty signature, whenever that was.

Bernard C.  ;D
Title: Re: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Leni on September 28, 2010, 09:14:18 AM
Sorry, Bernard, I was just 'yankin' your chain'!  ;) :24: 

 :-[
Title: Re: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Paul S. on September 28, 2010, 08:00:36 PM
hello Bernard  -  sorry, can't add anything academically worthwhile  -  stunning piece of course, but.......in some ways it shouts deco, with that angular handle,and the overall straight sided shape  -  then again, looking a the massively fussy and complex cutting, the essence of deco is lost, and period wise it looks almost late 30's into 40's.    Deco appears, usually, simpler and with less rounds and curves in the cutting.   But as I say, nonetheless BEAUTIFUL. :mrgreen:   Am I way off course? :)
Title: Re: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Bernard C on November 11, 2010, 10:50:09 AM
(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF1046.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF1046.jpg)

Click above image to enlarge.

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF1046sig.jpg)        (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF1046mark.jpg)

H. 4" 10cm, d. 9" 23cm, w. 3lb 6oz 1531g.

Marks as the tall jug, and probably this bowl is a close contemporary.

My photographs seem to be getting worse!    :spls:

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Frank on November 11, 2010, 01:21:21 PM
With the deco shape and very not deco cutting it could be older rather than younger too. Late 20s to 50s. Tudor trademark was oned by Stourbridge Glass Co. Ltd. Audnam Glass Works, Stourbridge, in use from at least 1931 and into the 50s (From to hand references)
Title: Re: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Leni on November 11, 2010, 02:24:20 PM
Another lovely piece, Bernard!   :rah:  I really like the combination of deco / not-deco cutting and engraving - the 'un-deco' flowers being placed in the very deco 'vase' / flowerpot!  Will it be on your stand at the National this weekend?  ;)   :thup:
Title: Re: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Ming on November 12, 2010, 01:39:53 AM
Bernard

Ask John Saunders at the National. He usually goes there. He is the expert on Jack Lloyd. The bowl is  late 50s/60s because l remember l shown him my glass with the same pattern. I have also been told that Jack 1930s work was much better quality and the base stamp is Tudor without the Made in England. I have two of his 1930s pieces and it does shown when compare with his later works.

Sorry my photos are not very good. May be l bring the 1930s Rose glass to National and show you Bernard. What stall are you?
Title: Re: A Tudor / Jack Lloyd engraved tall jug for dating, please
Post by: Bernard C on November 13, 2010, 01:16:08 PM
...   May be l bring the 1930s Rose glass to National and show you Bernard.   ...

Yes, please.

I prefer not to use the word quality when comparing two items with different fineness of engraving.   My favourite piece is the Walsh Deer Hunt bowl, engraved by Mr. Douglas, who was paid just 8/6 for his work on this 14" bowl.   It is not fine at all, but engraved with great economy, but I doubt whether anyone would consider it of less than the highest quality.   Jack Lloyd's work is all of the highest quality to me, perhaps more so with his later work, where a possibly reduced piecework rate demanded a significant economy of engraving.   It still stands out as exceptional.

Here's an example from Walsh, unnamed engraver, around 1930, and possibly Walsh's response to Jack Lloyd's early work, emphasised by the following pattern using the same blanks but engraved with more traditional foliage, just in case it didn't sell.   The piecework rate for engraving a tumbler was just 5d.   That's fantastic quality for 5d!!!!!   Click on the image for details / enlargement.

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF1048.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-13629)

And here's another economical engraving, 1937–38, designed by Keith Murray for Stevens & Williams, unnamed engraver again, of the very highest quality.      Again click on the image for details / enlargement.

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF1047.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-13655)

Finally, I'm certain the Made in England Tudor mark dates from the 1930s.   It was quite likely to have been in use at the same time as the simple Tudor mark.   The notion that one mark was always scrapped as soon as another was introduced is a fiction introduced by those who like their history neat and tidy in simple compartments.   I think of them as Stanley Gibbons historians!

Bernard C.  8)