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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Patrick on September 24, 2011, 01:11:19 PM

Title: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Patrick on September 24, 2011, 01:11:19 PM
Hi,
 Would have thought these were a good buy at 550.00 Hammer. The estimate was a bit of a joke !
http://www.woolleyandwallis.co.uk/Lot/?Sale=DA210911&Lot=21

Regards,
     Patrick.
Ps, It mentions paper labels...........
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases,
Post by: Gary on September 24, 2011, 07:30:36 PM
I was in contact with the saleroom prior to the sale, I requested a condition report and a photo of the bases including labels. Out of the twelve vases, ten had Monart Glass labels !!. Part of the reply stated and I quote "There are 2 loose paper labels. All the other labels look to me as if they have come off and been re-stuck back on".
 I believe at least six of the vases are Vasart rather than Monart.Fake labels or what?.
I have the photo of the bases with labels but unsure if I can post due to copyright.
Gary
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases,
Post by: Anne on September 24, 2011, 08:14:22 PM
Gary, if you ask for (& get) permission to post the pics from the auction house it''s fine.
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases,
Post by: Frank on September 24, 2011, 11:50:04 PM
These are fakes and were made, probably in London, for a Perth based dealer in 1988/89 read more here http://www.ysartglass.com/Ysartnews/Ysartnews5a.htm#Fake so not even Scottish!

Label in 5th row http://www.ysartglass.com/BaseLabel/Labels.htm

Two examples here http://www.ysartglass.com/extrapics/PicsMonart03.htm

Someone has made a seriously bad buy! Estmate was right at lower end and the description suggests the auctioneers knew of the fakes if not actually recognising these ones.


Thanks for the posting, now Front page news http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on September 25, 2011, 12:50:36 AM
Have advised the auction house of the news item on Scotland's Glass. Inviting them to comment.
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: rbm6167 on September 25, 2011, 02:26:58 PM
So glad I dropped out of bidding at £500 then!!!
Phew! But feel guilty now about pushing winner so high. No fool like an old fool!
John
P.S. There is a date error on your Front Page News in Scotland's Glass about this auction, Frank. The auction took place in 2011 - not 2010.
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: flying free on September 25, 2011, 02:28:34 PM
Frank there's an error in your front page news.  It says 21 Sept 2010 not 2011.
m
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on September 25, 2011, 04:34:25 PM
Is it 2011 already... my time flies


Thanks
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on September 25, 2011, 06:45:18 PM
Additional information has just now been added to the news story on SG.

Direct link (http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=214:fake-monart-miniatures-in-auction&catid=1:latest&Itemid=22)
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: flying free on September 25, 2011, 09:29:05 PM
you're welcome  :)
Interesting story - I'm glad I don't have oodles of money...sometimes.
m
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: nigel benson on September 26, 2011, 09:07:01 PM
I think I need to make a number of comments here since I viewed the lot and handled every piece.

1) The lot was described as:

21. A collection of twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, various shapes and colours with applied Monart paper labels tallest 10cm high.               £50- 150

2) There were two Vasart pieces IMHO, along with 10 others, one of which was cracked (and marked as such).

3). The labels were fake - thick, glossy, and glued (not gummed like stamps used to be) with the codes rubbed away, because they could remain on that surface unlike the original matt Monart paper labels.

4). I believe these were the same grouping as sold in Phillips (from memory) many years ago as two lots of Monart miniatures. If right, I believe the vendor has correctly made observation to the auctioneer (Woolly and Wallis) to ensure that they were not marketed incorrectly a second time - see above description.

5) The ridiculous price achieved was due to folks not looking at the pieces correctly and hoping that they were indeed Monart miniatures - which they weren't even if Monart! Too big.

6) I'm pleased for the vendor who paid over twice the price originally and has recouped at least some of the cost because of 5 above. It is probable that the lot was put into Phillips by the dealer Frank mentions, but we have no proof, only that he was peddling these exact items at fairs in the South at that time.

The comments under 5 and 6 may be a little harsh, but should highlight a salutary lesson to those reading this thread. Lastly, I do not see why the auctioneer need make any comment on this occasion, since there was no mention of the glass being Monart, and the labels were described as what they are. Remember the phrase caveat emptor (buyer beware) and make sure you make all the necessary investigations before bidding.

Nigel

Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: nigel benson on September 26, 2011, 09:21:03 PM
Checked your link after I posted Frank. So, we're both thinking the same thing. Hooray  ;) :)

Nigel
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on September 26, 2011, 09:38:44 PM
The auctioneers responded and were happy with the news piece, although not wildly so.
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on September 26, 2011, 09:56:14 PM
Nigel do you remember when J stalled out at the one of the Deco fairs in Kensington Town Hall, this is where he first showed them. I bought a dozen I think at around 25 a piece. Although it was clear from day one that labels were fake it took a few days and consultation until it was decided the pieces were fake too. By which time quite a lot got into circulation. He had about 50 on the day, saying they were salesman's samples. Sometime later somebody else told me that they had been made by an artist in London and told me the location of the studio... I always intended to ask him if he had made them but never got round to it. Maybe I should chase that up, but too many eggs in the pan at the mo. But my recent info clearly links J to a maker in Scotland and while not provable fits in with much else. But I somehow doubt that that was the source of this first batch. Another time a certain now retired London glass restorer had a lot of Vasart and Strathearn pieces the commission, from J again, to grind/polish flat rings and the salmon seals off. I guess for him it was just business. It is an amazing story, that I cannot tell, when you look at all the things he has done with Ysart glass alone and he dabbled in much else besides. Has to rank as one of the worst dealers in the UK. Too sad that no-one has hard evidence and circumstantial doesn't count.
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: nigel benson on September 27, 2011, 07:47:56 PM
I certainly do Frank, I was next to him on one occasion!! I too bought some pieces, which he described, as you say, as salesman's samples, but the labels looked wrong, the glass too thick, and some colours too bright. This made me suspicious, and when a small group turned up in a major decorative arts dealer's shop that purported to be surface decorated it confirmed my misgivings. They had an internal white layer that was thick and very opaque (not like the generally pearly white of true Monart) and the outer layer of brown was glossy, but not iridescent.

Too much of a co-incidence. Then your warnings went out through the Monart and Vasart Collector's Club by a chap called...........Frank ;) :) :)

I always thought that he was commissioning items up in Scotland, but your connections within the glass world, particularly Monart, were I suspect, more wide spread than mine at the time, so it could well have been somewhere in London. Better in some respect, since it was less likely that the maker would be aware of what he was involved in.

I do agree he did certainly go into the running for being the worst dealer in the UK, but I'm afraid there have been worse cases, which raised much greater sums for the cynical/greedy dealers that did the dirty!! Urgh :o

As a result of my experience at that time I always have an example of one of these fake Monart miniatures, with a fake label, on my stand to teach collectors so that they do not get duped. This sale high-lighted the need to keep on doing just that ;)

Nigel
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on September 27, 2011, 08:57:27 PM
I came across a mention of the Japanese Gallé high-end fakes of the 70s?/80s that had fooled all the experts on the board recently. Last year I was in contact with a US dealer, Gallé specialist, and not having seen much about these I asked him if he knew if they still circulated. He got quite angry saying that there was no such thing... sigh.
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: millarart on September 28, 2011, 08:38:58 PM
i too asked for pics of labels as when i looked at pieces they looked like the fakes id seen before, once i seen pics of labels i knew they to were fakes from info on ysartglass site years back, pity the auction house hadnt listed that the labels were in the monart style instead of saying monart labels, i feel sorry for the buyer of these as by time commision is added the cost gonna be nearer 700 pounds and if they had to be sent then your looking at nearer 800 pounds, you would have thought that collectors of monart might have had an idea that they werent right specially when paying that kinda money, look before you leep comes into mind, anyway am sure i will be put in my place for voicing my opinion, but hey its my tuppence worth, oh and lastly if it were proved that these were made in london and not perthshire then surely the buyer can take them back for full refund, the thing is it could well be someone known off of here, and there not going to admit it now or will they???
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: millarart on September 28, 2011, 08:44:07 PM
just a thought on these fakes, if the buyer is a user on here and they cant return them for some reason to the auction house then maybe they can get some of their dosh back by offering the fakes with fake labels for sale to collectors so we have the chance to own, see, feel and know what to look for in the future, id happily buy one and im sure others would also, thoughts???????////
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: nigel benson on September 28, 2011, 09:09:53 PM
Good to hear from you Gary  :)

An interesting idea to help out the buyer, despite my comments, its a great piece of thinking outside the box  :) :)

Nigel
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: millarart on September 28, 2011, 09:23:15 PM
Hi Nigel
             how are you mate , long time since i heard from you, dont have your number anymore, thats the problem with digital cordless phones, you store all your numbers in them and forget that if they break then every numbers lost, so back to the good old phone book, anyway i hope your well, ive just started collecting Ysart after having a few years off, 4 i think maybe more, anyway back to the subject, yeah i would certainaly buy one of the fakes from the buyer to have an example in my collection and as i said earlier it would help the buyer get some of his money back, just have to hope they come forward and make themselfs known,
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 29, 2011, 09:35:49 AM
Nice thinking Gary!  :sun:
I have to confess, I'm surprised these went for so much - if you've ever seen or handled a Monart miniature I don't think you'd fall for these. The auction pics don't blow up well - but the items themselves just don't look good enough. They're dull, lumpy and uninteresting. Not words one would apply to Monart!
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on September 29, 2011, 11:27:11 PM
Sorry Sue, I do not agree. These fake miniatures are superb glass craftsmanship, I am sure the maker is good and did not know how JJ intended to use them but I would be happy to have kept all those I bought. I sold them onto trusted collectors. If the maker ever came forwards I would congratulate them on catching the essence of the Ysart style, more so than anyone else has done. These pieces could then be sold at a good price because of the real maker. I could understand if they are embarrassed but as the collecting community was never fooled (weel until 22 years later) no-one would view the maker in anything other than a positive light.
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 30, 2011, 10:41:15 AM
I hear you - I can't blow the auction pics up to examine them closely - the wee bit thay can be expanded leaves the images fuzzy. I've not handled any of them and I have to admit, they're not in any of the Monarty colourways that I like, which may contribute to my dismissal of them.

I am looking at my Monart miniature to compare these images with, and fuzzy pics don't compare well with my rather beautiful and elegant finely-blown piece.
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Gary on July 30, 2012, 10:48:29 AM
The two small vases listed as Monart are from the same batch of fakes (IMHO) as mentioned in this thread. I have emailed the auction house re my doubts on their authenticity.
Gary
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/crows-auction-gallery/catalogue-id-2850608/lot-15001452
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on July 30, 2012, 07:33:17 PM
Hard call without a base view but possible!
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Gary on July 30, 2012, 09:46:32 PM
Below is a link to the auction house who originally sold the group of twelve miniatures
The vase at the front and the one to the right and one up are the same shape and colour schemes as the one now listed in Crowes autions.
http://www.woolleyandwallis.co.uk/Lot/?sale=DA210911&lot=21&id=204506
Gary
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on July 30, 2012, 10:48:46 PM
Yup well matched up. Easily confirmed by asking the current auction house what the base is like.

I have heard where they were made, intriguingly in London. I also have a pretty good idea by who too - just an assumption based on the location of the studio that made the miniatures. If the maker reads this I would love them to get in touch and take ownership with pride. I do not believe the maker intentionally made fakes. Just a group of miniatures for a dealers showcase was probably the line used by commissioning dealer. Bear in mind that at the time Monart was almost an unknown just emerging from obscurity.
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Gary on August 02, 2012, 08:32:22 PM
The lot at Crows auction sold for 120 hammer price. A bit on the low side considering the one piece of Monart was a shape HF in the fairly rare colour code 233A, maybe Monart collectors were put off with the dubious Monart miniatures.
Gary
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: helenaJ on August 03, 2012, 10:34:58 PM
Having requested a condition report, I bid successfully on-line for this lot.   It took me 1 hr 40 mins to drive to the auction house to collect said lot.  I confronted one of the auctioneers about the 2 fake vases saying a member from the GMB had contacted them about these 2 pieces.   He wasn't very helpful!!   Said I could cancel my bid, but I asked to see the lots anyway as I wanted the striped vase (condition good, so the email said), the miniatures definitely fake, the writing on the label completely different.   But the biggest disappointment was the striped vase - cracked from top to bottom.   Once I pointed this out to the auctioneer, he cancelled the sale immediately.   So a bit of a wasted journey + plus petrol.

Mary

PS:  I've now moved permanently back to the UK, only took a year to sell the house!!!
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on August 04, 2012, 12:23:25 AM
Hi Mary,

What a pain!!!!
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Gary on September 17, 2012, 05:27:43 PM
I believe( IMHO) these two vase are part of the original twelve miniatures mentioned earlier in this thread. I have emailed the auction house for extra photos of the base and labels.
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/wellers-auctioneers/catalogue-id-2863691/lot-15364070
Gary
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on September 17, 2012, 10:55:14 PM
probably
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Gary on September 21, 2012, 09:10:49 AM
The auction house have posted a photo of the labels http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/wellers-auctioneers/catalogue-id-2863691/lot-15364070 . Which IMHO confirms them to be fakes.
Gary
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Gary on September 21, 2012, 10:19:20 AM
Just finished listening to auction live on the net and they sold for 75 hammer price. It was interesting that the auctioneer only described them (during auction) as "miniature vases" and not Monart miniature vases as described in their catalogue.
Gary
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on September 23, 2012, 10:39:04 PM
no doubts here.
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Gary on September 24, 2012, 08:21:49 AM
It was interesting I received a reply from the auction house re- condition report and extra images after the auction had started. Below is an image (permission given) of the base of the two vases with (IMHO) fake labels.
Gary
Title: Re: Twelve Perthshire glass miniature vases, FAKE Monart
Post by: Frank on September 24, 2012, 09:34:52 AM
One of which has had lots of rub testing to see if ink comes off  ;D