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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Germany => Topic started by: flying free on October 20, 2011, 04:39:23 PM

Title: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 20, 2011, 04:39:23 PM
I bought these wine glasses today and was dithering between this set and another.  I have the chance to swap them if I want to.  I wondered if anyone could help with who they may be made by please? 
They are very fine and ring beautifully. None are marked.
I had thought they may be Venetian but now I'm wondering about that.  Any thoughts or directions to look in would be appreciated as all I come up with on air twist is antique clear glasses.  I don't know how old these are and I can't find coloured air twists apart from modern ones.  I feel these aren't contemporary but I could be wrong.
Many thanks  :sun:
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: Ivo on October 20, 2011, 05:59:08 PM
They're lovely and well made and I'm sure the glass makers were top. But the design is somewhat flawed: as soon as you pour wine in them they become top heavy and the slightest nudge will topple them.  A set of 6 will just take one silly accident to become incomplete.
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 20, 2011, 06:36:45 PM
mm, food for thought Ivo thanks.  They are supposed to be for high days and holidays, but I have children, one of whom is not capable of keeping his glass upright for much more than a minute  :o  Still, perhaps if I use a tablecloth.... ;D  I really like them.
I do think my photo is a little misleading as I was trying to show the shape of the bowl rather than the glass side on. The foot is quite large and they are quite balanced to look at, although the length of the stem of course means you are right.
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: Frank on October 20, 2011, 08:10:11 PM
Tried replacements.com ?
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 20, 2011, 08:16:53 PM
yes I did Frank thanks.  All that came up were clear.
I'll have another look around now.  
I'm not so worried about the who, as I do really love them.  They are impeccably made.   I'm just in two minds as to whether to go back and be sensible and get something a little less delicate.  I'll sleep on it.  They are a fantastic colour and will look good and be nice to drink out of...however I'm now having visions of the perennial 'table cloth being accidentally yanked' and 'oops it was an accident' and wondering how sensible I'm really being here  ;D
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 21, 2011, 11:34:13 AM
Have decided to keep  :ooh: so I was having another look this morning.
I have come up with a possible....Moser?
I found this as a good similar'ish' example of the knop (I'm not sure thats the right description but you know what I mean) between the stem and the bowl and I've found a good few examples that seem to be the same shape, with the slightly tapering stem, similar shaped bowl as well what looks to be the same air twist.  Admittedly of course it could be one of a number of people, but so far Moser seems to have the most similarities.  I'm hoping I might be on the right track and that they wouldn't be discounted?
http://moserglass.net/piece/161

m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: rosieposie on October 21, 2011, 03:43:15 PM
Oh m,  I'm so pleased you have decided to keep them, you should have them if you love them.  If we all worried about potential breakages, we would be living in a 'Tinfoil and Tupperwear' home!  :o
Put them on view in a cabinet and by all means keep them for high days and holidays.....children grow up so fast and you will so love having them on the table to dine with friends.

They look lovely,  I adore airtwist stems....our poor substitute are Stuart Crystal Iona.....and we have at last started using them.

So, ENJOY them!!
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 21, 2011, 08:16:36 PM
Thanks Rosie - yes we will enjoy them.  As will the kids lol.  I'm looking on them as a substitute for buying a new Christmas dec each for the kids, which I normally do every  year.  Instead they can end up with a pair of glasses each to drink wine once they are older, whilst they decorate their own trees.  I thought that was good logic  ;D
I'm pretty sure they are older as well, so I'm pleased about that.
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 21, 2011, 11:57:40 PM
There seems to be a Moser colour called Eldor which in some links  looks very similar to these glasses.  Could they be Eldor colour does anyone know?  There seems to be some variation on the links I found and I don't know which ones are correct and which are wishful thinking if you know what I mean.
Thanks
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: Frank on October 22, 2011, 12:24:16 AM
That style of knop is not uncommon, noticed it in both Nachtmann and Theresienthal catalogues I was browsing today.... neither of whom are likely candidates, try Daum,
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 22, 2011, 12:55:33 AM
thank you Frank  :) will do.
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: Ivo on October 22, 2011, 08:26:30 AM
Unmarked Daum does not happen. Unmarked Moser just might.
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 22, 2011, 12:37:52 PM
Ok Ivo, thanks.  
I've uploaded a more representative picture now side on.
Measurements are 19.4cm height (7 6/10") ; diameter of foot 7.25cm (2 7/8"); diameter of rim of bowl 5.9cm (2 3/10")
I continued to look and I have found a pair of cameo glasses (unattributed) that seem to have the similar tapering stem and the similar double knop effect with the space in between
here
http://www.elegantfindingsantiques.com/glass/pages/cameo-goblets.htm

this is the closest glass I have found so far, in terms of shape and knop, unfortunately unattributed and not a good photo close up.  
Still searching, and thank you both for your much appreciated help.
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: Frank on October 22, 2011, 01:04:49 PM
Unmarked Daum does not happen. Unmarked Moser just might.

Does too! I have had some 20 years ago, took years to ID in those days too.
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 22, 2011, 01:14:48 PM
side on picture now loaded in my most recent reply above.
Frank, I'm struggling to find Daum glasses to be honest.  But I will keep looking.
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 22, 2011, 08:09:05 PM
I'm tentatively wondering if another contender for these could be Saint-Louis?
I've found similar with an air twist stem, though not the same type,and with a similar cup bowl, though not identical.
I understand that not all Saint-Louis was marked prior to the 30's (if I remember correctly what I read yesterday).
I'm still erring on the side of Moser though for the moment.
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 24, 2011, 10:53:49 PM
got it!!
Rheinische Glashutten A.G. Koln-Ehrenfeld c.1888?  Named range 'Wilhelm'
apfelgrune colour? actually having checked again they may be either Gelbgrunes or Schwach Grunes I think.
I think there is every possibility we won't be using these with the kids ...if I am right.
scroll down and third one down on the left - am I right?
http://glas-des-jugendstil.de/a2_KEH-Glaeser.htm
and here
http://www.glaswolf.de/Roemer-WILHELM-Rhein.210+B6YmFja1BJRD0yMTAmTD0xJnByb2R1Y3RJRD0xNTYzJnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTIxMCZkZXRhaWw9.0.html

edited - a bit more searching and this seems to have been on the board before
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,20626.msg116760.html#msg116760
Mine aren't marked....
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: Lustrousstone on October 25, 2011, 06:28:13 AM
Yes and No. Those look to be handmade in three parts, yours looks to have a machine made stem and foot IMHO. Modern copies/versions?
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 25, 2011, 08:44:47 AM
No, I don't think mine are modern copies, in fact I'm pretty sure they aren't.

I'm not sure how you are defining that my stem is possibly machine made and the ones I linked to are hand made.  What differences are you seeing?  Would machine made stems have polished pontil marks on the bottom of them?
 As an aside mine measure the same.

Where would I investigate how you make machine made air twist stems and knops like this and who might be making machine made airtwists?
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: Ivo on October 25, 2011, 09:23:03 AM
Please note that in those websites quoted the model name is preceded by "ähnl." - which is "similar to".  It means that it has an air twist similar to the model which was identified as "Wilhelm" higher up on the page - but in no way does it identify the maker of the other air twists.

It should also be noted that there is no way you can make an air twist stem in an automatic or even semi-automatic machine. The stem is made separately, the foot is attached as a hot blob and formed in a clapper so that it is perfectly round and flat; it is then taken up on a pontil iron and attached to the bowl. This manufacturing process has to be identical for all air twist stems.
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 25, 2011, 10:01:40 AM
Ivo, I was going by the information on the Kilian site under a glass which is pictured above it (and looks to be the same as mine) -

Quote
Römer aus dem Tafelservice WILHELM. Rheinische Glashütten A.G Köln-Ehrenfeld um 1888. Schwach grünes Glas. Schaft mit eingeschlossenen spiralförmigen Hohlfäden. Abgesetzter Nodus. H. 19,5 cm
Lit. W. Schäfke: Ehrenfelder Glas des Historismus, Köln 1979, 180, Nr. 435.

I couldn't see in that description that there was a doubt about the origin of the glass?   I thought  the wording
Quote
Lit. W. Schäfke: Ehrenfelder Glas des Historismus, Köln 1979, 180, Nr. 435
was a reference to where the identification came from?

Also in the other link, the glass I referred to was three down on the left.  That one does not have 'ahnl' written on the description, it is id'd as Wilhelm and is the one on the page that looks exactly the same as mine.  The others that have 'ahnl' written under them are all slightly different to that one and to mine.

Did I misunderstand?
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: Ivo on October 25, 2011, 10:38:37 AM
Okay - you have them IDd properly, congrats.
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 25, 2011, 10:48:20 AM
Thank you so much!!  :sun:
I'm now scared to use them at all although I do think they should be used at least once.
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: Lustrousstone on October 25, 2011, 11:14:21 AM
My concern was that your glasses didn't seem to be made in three pieces: bowl, stem and foot. Yours looked to be bowl and stem/foot
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 27, 2011, 11:59:17 AM
Apologies for the late reply, but I've been away for a couple of days.
Yes, I can see exactly what you mean on the photographs Christine :)  They are so impeccably made it does look like that.  The foot is drawn up in the middle very slightly as a shape, where it joins the stem, and in person you can just, on some of them, feel the 'join' as it were.
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: Frank on October 29, 2011, 10:49:50 AM
Nice result!
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on October 29, 2011, 11:07:05 AM
Thank you  :sun: and also for the help and ideas you, and everyone, gave.  It encouraged me to keep looking to find a match - I'm delighted with the result  :hiclp:
m
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: chopin-liszt on November 01, 2011, 03:43:14 PM
So you should be - and delighted with your tenatious sleuthing to get the id.
They're just gorgeous - don't let the children near them.

Mother gave me a sip of wine from a crystal glass when I was a toddler (she started me off on the booze at an early age) I took a bite out of the glass at the same time as the sip of wine.
There were panics for ages before the bitten-off bit turned up - in mother's cup of coffee a few days later. :spls:
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on November 02, 2011, 08:15:34 AM
Thanks Sue  :sun:
Title: Re: greeny yellow wine glasses hock? multi spiral air twist ID = Köln-Ehrenfeld
Post by: flying free on September 26, 2016, 12:01:24 PM
I've just added two more at a price I could afford :) to make it a set of 8.
Very happy to have a couple of 'spares' just in case. Might use them more often now.
m