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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Gary on November 25, 2011, 09:04:54 PM

Title: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on November 25, 2011, 09:04:54 PM
In this album are images taken by me from the four sketched Monart catalogues(1/ Monart Ware Lighting 2/ Models AI-ZI 3/ Models AJ-ZJ 4/ Models AK-ZK) housed in Perth museum. It would appear according to the text written in the catalogues that new shapes were introduced during 1938-1939 taking the place of the older shape but with the same shape code. Gary
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?&pos=-15871
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: MHJ02 on November 26, 2011, 10:40:24 AM
Thanks Gary, for those of us who can't get to the Museum 'cos we live so far away, info like this is fantastic.
Mary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: millarart on November 27, 2011, 07:55:59 AM
very interesting
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: RAY on November 27, 2011, 04:16:56 PM
just out of curiosity which ysarts did the designs?
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on November 27, 2011, 04:32:35 PM
It would have been Salvador along with Mrs I Moncrieff who designed the majority if not all of the pre 1939 shapes.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on November 28, 2011, 09:11:37 PM
No it was Paul Gary, ref Ian Turners talk at Perth in 2005 and possibly some of that was published in a GA journal... main clue being handwriting on the drawings was mostly Paul's.
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on November 28, 2011, 11:13:54 PM
I stand by, what I believe to be correct ie that Salvador along with Mrs I Moncrieff designed most of the pre 1939 shapes.
When Monart started production in 1924 Paul was only twenty years with only a couple of years working in the glass industry and on the other hand there is Salvador, forty two years old with decades working in the glass industry ( including some of the best glassworks in France) and was gaffer of the Monart work area. It was also one of Salvador's frigger vases that gave Mrs Moncrieff the initial idea of Monart glass. The question is, who is Mrs Moncrieff going to work with designing the first range of Monart shapes for sale, is it the young inexperienced Paul or Salvador the experienced master glassblower.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on November 29, 2011, 03:31:03 PM
But exactly how inexperienced was Paul?

Back in those sorts of days, it's highly likely Paul was able to watch his Dad at work - I know Tim and Jonathan Harris watched their dad Michael, from a fairly young age, were able to get into the workspaces and see what was going on

My Dad had a dental workshop/lab in his practice - I went there loads of times as a small child and got to play with all the lab stuff - putty, wax, bunsen burners, mercury (loads of fun having it tickle as it runs around your palms, great fun to bash a drop of it hard and see it scatter into tiny droplets which you can then get to all run back together, I loved playing with it. Not recommended these days.)

Paul was the one with the most artistic talent - something he would have naturally been developing as he grew up - and if he was watching glassmaking - he'd have got a good "feel" for it.

I really don't see why a 20 year old couldn't have been the one with new ideas - and designing at this tender age.
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on November 29, 2011, 04:47:45 PM
But exactly how inexperienced was Paul?. As a second year apprentice I would imagine fairly inexperienced in the glassblowing industry compared to his father Salvador.
Bear with me as take quotes from the book YSART GLASS which to my reading indicates it was Salvador and not Paul with Mrs Moncrieff who designed the majority of pre 1939 Monart shapes.
page 14 " During 1923 she (Mrs Moncrieff) encouraged Salvador to experiment with coloured glassware. She recorded the different shapes in a pattern book and brought fabrics from London for Salvador to match or copy"
page 15 "Ysart family standing in front of one of Salvador's more bizarre creations"
page 17 " Before the start of each production run, Salvador and Mrs Moncrieff would decide on the colour schemes and patterns"
No mention of Paul in any stage of the designing of the early Monart shapes.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on November 29, 2011, 05:59:40 PM
Ysart Glass is out of date in that respect because of Ian's later research, I really ought to check with him if it is published anywhere. The research as presented at the 2005 conference was good and convincing.

The family of Paul were certainly involved at a very young age, mostly in slicing canes for paperweights - they did not enjoy it. Presumably Paul's father had taken the same approach, certainly some of the shapes would be refined by Salvador but Paul would have been quite capable of doing this before the 20s were out - after all by the early 30s 'at least' he was breaking remarkably original ground with paperweights. You cannot easily make comparisons with a creative spirit of Paul's importance to the average glassmaker. We always have to be careful of making assumptions in research.

Also bear in mind that Paul began working with his father as apprentice at E&L in 1915, then at Cochran 1916-? and with Moncrieff from 1922 so by the time he joined Moncrief he would be near the end of his 7 year apprenticeship. Unfortunately his memory was not detailed at that point and the duo may have worked elsewhere, as is believed, in Glasgow before 1922.
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: millarart on November 29, 2011, 06:41:12 PM
from the pieces i do remember from the Perth conference i to was led to believe that Paul played a major part in the design of the Monart shapes , but then im amazed i can remember anything from last week never mind 6/7 years ago :sm: did anyone take notes?????
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on November 29, 2011, 06:53:52 PM
"You cannot easily make comparisons with a creative spirit of Paul's importance to the average glassmaker." Quote from Frank. I did not make the comparison of Paul to an average glassblower but with Salvador a master glassblower.
Frank are you saying that Paul and not Salvador collaborated with Mrs Moncrieff designing all Monart shapes from 1924 onwards.
What part is out of date as two of the quotes I used (page 14 and page 17) are from Paul Ysart personal recollection given to I Turner in 1985.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on November 29, 2011, 07:51:53 PM
No, I am saying we need to get Ian's later work to a larger audience.

My laws of glass research. :-)
 
Worst Sources that must be corroborated elsewhere:
1. Colleagues at the factory - each will tell you a different story of the same event.
2. Company PR material - no surprises.
3. First hand account by the glass-maker concerned.
 
A 4th would be a good technical editor who red-lines all the 'assumptions' that inevitably creep-in. A chilling experience when it first happens to you  :spls: as your draft looks like a lip-stick tester  ;) But what gets published is probably as close to the truth that you will get at the time of publishing. The next day it all gets trashed again  :huh:

But keep plugging away you are getting some good data together. :thup:
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on November 30, 2011, 12:03:32 PM
 :hi: Gary,

It would be very convienent for researchers if things could all be neatly packaged into pigeon holes, but this was simply not how things happened.
For example, you ask;
"Frank are you saying that Paul and not Salvador collaborated with Mrs Moncrieff designing all Monart shapes from 1924 onwards."
But it is perfectly possible they both did, both before and after!

To be a designer does not require (much) knowledge of hot glass working, indeed, students of glass design in Art Colleges (before hot glass became available to them for their personal use) made their designs and then "technicians" - the glassmakers - made their designs up for them.
I would imagine if they came up with something which was technically beyond the makers' skills, it would simply fail.
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: MHJ02 on November 30, 2011, 12:43:33 PM
I don't know if this point would have a bearing on who collaborated with Mrs Moncrieff, but didn't Salvador and Paul have a huge falling out in the 30's over Salvador's remarriage.   If Paul became involved in designing the shapes, at what stage would this have occurred; would Salvador take this lying down?   Is it not possible that both were involved, if so, it could have been quite volatile!!!!!

The scenario of both of them sitting down with Mrs Moncrieff discussing designs is ummmmmmmh difficult to picture!!
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on November 30, 2011, 12:48:08 PM
They could have been doing it with her one at a time, behind each others' backs!  >:D
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on November 30, 2011, 01:22:59 PM
...Salvador and Paul have a huge falling out in the 30's over Salvador's remarriage....


Paul just stopped talking to his father, that did not stop them working together.
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on November 30, 2011, 08:29:38 PM
Frank what does the new research by I Turner say on the subject of the designers of Monart shapes.
Until some new information comes forward my belief is that Salvador was the main collaberator with Mrs Moncrieff. At no point did I say Paul had no input in the designed stage, but I have until now, never seen his name mentioned in the context of Monart shape design (pre 1939) in any literature I have read.
I would be pleased to be proved wrong or correct or anywhere in between, as whatever the outcome, would mean one more fact about Monart is verified.
Gary 
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on November 30, 2011, 09:24:44 PM
I will need to get in touch with Ian, but with site problems and life problems it is added to a to-do list. But it needs to get published.
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: millarart on December 01, 2011, 07:31:58 AM
They could have been doing it with her one at a time, behind each others' backs!  >:D
tut tut Sue :thud:
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on August 26, 2012, 08:00:57 PM
The two links below are photos that I took of the Monart lighting catalogues that are in Perth Museum. These are the catalogues that I Turner based his well written and informative article on Monart lighting in the The Journal of The Glass Association.
http://flic.kr/s/aHsjBFvKhm
http://flic.kr/s/aHsjBFVL9y
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on August 26, 2012, 11:50:20 PM
Now who were Ramsey, did it say in the article... not to hand.

Really ought to get Lighting sorted on Ysartglass... time. Upto my neck in updating software on sites. But soon... say 2 months... be back in productive work!
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on August 27, 2012, 09:33:13 AM
No mention of the firm Ramsay in I Turner article, but I did come across these snippets of information on the web. Which maybe!! the firm that supplied Moncrieff Glassworks with the Krinks light fittings.
 I am at a bit of a dead end uncovering any more info on the S Krinks of Birmingham, can any member give me a clue where I should look next.

This notice was posted in The London Gazette, 11th of November 1892

NOTICE is hereby given, that the Partnership heretofore
subsisting between us the undersigned,
Samuel Krinks and John Pyne, carrying on business
together in co-partnership, at 235 and 236, Icknield street,
in the city of Birmingham, as* Electro-Plate
Manufacturers, under the style or firm of Krinks and
Pyne has this day been dissolved by mutual consent.
The business will henceforth' be carried on by the said
Samuel Krinks alone, by whom all debts due to and
owing from the said late firm will be received and paid.
—Dated this 3rd day of November, 1892.
SAMUEL KRINKS.
JOHN PYNE.

This was posted in The London Gazette 15th October 1968

Name of Company: SAMUEL KRINKS & SONS LIMITED.
Nature of Business: METAL STAMPERS AND PRESSERS.
Address of Registered - Office: Soho Pool Works,
Hocktey,, Birmingham 19.
Liquidator's Name and Address: John Albert! Evans,
38 Great Charles Street, Birmingham 3.
Date of Appointment: 23rd September 1968.
By whom Appointed: Members.
Gary

Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on August 28, 2012, 10:56:12 PM
Birmingham city archives are your best bet, but you might get more director names from company records which must exist if it finished that late... but I cannot see it going anywhere as Moncrieff's would unlikely have been a major customer. Ramsey on the other hand were possibly have been a more local firm and you might find something in the Moncrieff archive in the Alexander library in Perth. I never managed to get to that collection... potential goldmine.
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on August 29, 2012, 08:42:28 PM
Thanks Frank for the input, I will follow up them leads, you will have to pay my fare as Alexander library is in Perth Australia ;). It is A.K Bell library Perth Scotland, I did call in once to find out what Moncrieff archives, I was informed they some material. The items that did interest me was that they had material on the Moncrieff workforce starting and leaving dates.
I must follow that up pretty soon.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on August 29, 2012, 09:45:14 PM
 :o Alexander K Bell then...  ;D but yes that is the one... just the sort of data that should be on Scotland's Glass... so we get those e-mails "X McJones was my grandfather, I still have x, y, z from Moncrieff would you like some pictures."

I love getting really personal anecdotes...

I had several planned trips to that archive, all fell through. Ask them if you can scan the lot for the site  :D

I have a chunk of Moncrieff archive I guess that should go there too as I lost contact with the owner. It was his intention to donate. Most of it is on-line. On SG and Ysartglass.com
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on September 25, 2012, 08:39:31 PM
I have some reservations with this paragraph from Frank earlier in this thread "Also bear in mind that Paul began working with his father as apprentice at E&L in 1915, then at Cochran 1916-? and with Moncrieff from 1922 so by the time he joined Moncrieff he would be near the end of his 7 year apprenticeship. Unfortunately his memory was not detailed at that point and the duo may have worked elsewhere, as is believed, in Glasgow before 1922".
 Most of this is based on hearsay and is not backed up with documentation of Paul working full time at E&L or Cochran.
In 1915 Paul was 11 years old. The school leaving age in Scotland in 1915 was 14 years old. The Education (Scotland) Act 1872 made compulsory for all children between 5 and 13, in 1901 the school leaving was raised to 14. This would Paul could not leave school until 1918.
Salvador, Paul and Augustine joined Moncieff glassworks in 1921, which would mean Paul was a third year apprentice. Paul spent his first 18 months at the Shore Road factory before he started working with his father at St Catherine Road factory.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on September 25, 2012, 09:35:53 PM
Twas direct from Paul. Both Turner and Clarke accounts tie up and were from separate face to face interviews. About as detailed as one is likely to find. I would guess school rules were lighter for immigrants plus his working pre-Moncrieff was 'informal'. I never did establish when Cochran closed down... no-one seems to know... although Airlie implies 1922. But Paul was quite certain that they worked at other glassworks between Cochran and Moncrieff. Also it is not known if they did stay until St Rollox closed, as assumed here and there. Many of the glassworks in Glasgow area are undocumented - apart from the odd photograph pops up now and again just raising more questions. I guess we have to wait on the next Turnbull publication for a scholarly study of the period.

Moncrieff's Tomey works (I assume you mean by Shore Road) was primarily bottles but also sorely undocumented. Paul's apprenticeship at Moncrieff was formalised so perhaps there is info on that in the archive too? Assuming Salvador was teaching light bulb envelope blowing at the other factories as he did at E&L short stays in multiple works would make a lot of sense as this was vital work to most glassworks at that point in time as demand outstripped supply.

But never hesitate to question the Status Quo, little is written in stone  ;)
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on September 25, 2012, 10:25:23 PM
Quote from yourself Frank.
My laws of glass research. :-)
Worst Sources that must be corroborated elsewhere:
1. Colleagues at the factory - each will tell you a different story of the same event.
2. Company PR material - no surprises.
3. First hand account by the glass-maker concerned my under line
Augustine, Vincent and Antoine all started working at the age of 14 (school leaving age) so I see no reason the Education (Scotland) Act 1872 amended 1901 would  apply to the three other brothers and not Paul.
You also say Paul's pre Moncrieff was informal does this imply not working full time in any glasswork pre Moncrieff's.

It does not say in the Moncrieff works ledger which building Paul and Augustine worked in, as the had two buildings in the harbour area of Perth in 1921.
There is a massive amount of archival material relating to Tomeys shore works at AK Bell library.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Carolyn Preston on September 25, 2012, 11:10:49 PM
Just to play devil's advocate ('cuz lord knows I have researched none of this) but could Paul have not worked part-time at the beginning of his apprenticeship (had an in with the boss you know) so that he could also have gone to school at the same time?

Carolyn
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on September 25, 2012, 11:55:05 PM
Of course Carolyn.

Re rule 3, until you get documentary proof a first hand account is the best you have to go on. It forms a basis to find information that supports it or disproves it. A lot of material got removed from the drafts for the book Ysart Glass because they were considered hearsay but ultimately there is the need to include what the person said about their work when there is no other source available. All books are out of date the moment they are published, the joy of research.

I had forgotten about the Tay glassworks. Some of the historical maps are inconsistent with each other too. Of course buildings could have changed purposes over time. There may have been other glassworks at some points in time too.

Informal is all we have, but there was never a mention of Paul going to school, which does not mean he did not.

Tomey archives would be interesting, but not to many people... good to know they exist. Moncrieff continued the brand and trademarks as well as the company for some time... but why?

It is great that you are going down this path, look forwards to learning more. Not much I can add as almost everything I have is published.
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on September 26, 2012, 10:42:18 AM
Just to play devil's advocate ('cuz lord knows I have researched none of this) but could Paul have not worked part-time at the beginning of his apprenticeship (had an in with the boss you know) so that he could also have gone to school at the same time?

Carolyn
What must be taken into account that Paul was a child of 11 years old in 1915 and it was compulsory to attend school so that would leave him little time to work with his father (after school and possibly Saturday mornings).

This bit of information proves nothing. "In the Moncrieff Employees Ledger 1900 to 1970 shows that no person under the age of 14 were taken on to work". but it does indicate Moncrieff Glassworks adhered Factory Act of the time,  not  employ children of school age. I see no reason why other glassworks would not be the same. Factories in general are dangerous places to work in, more so a glassworks.

Where did Paul learn to read and write English and the use of imperial measurements (Spain and France used the metric system, where he lived 1904 to1915) if not at school in Scotland.

Frank I am in correspondence with AK Bell library about scanning Moncrieff's materail for Scotland's Glass.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on September 26, 2012, 01:26:23 PM
cool. French used to have a weird 'imperial' system of their own no idea when the switched to metric but still use some non-metric untts here. Glass works often used inches elsewhere in Europe maybe in France too. Not an issue for blowers who would use gauges and calipers from masters or drawings.

As to the rest they remain unknown, best not to assume. Would be nice if a copy or record of his indenture was in the Moncrieff archive, is it large? I have some here which should join those papers, or museum, at some point. Wonder what happened to E&L and Cochran records. Edinburgh museum or libraries must have some material.
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on October 12, 2012, 11:10:26 AM
Having read and studied Ian Turner’s article on Monart Lighting and studied the Monart Lighting catalogues that are in Perth museum that Ian Turner article refers to in The Journal of The Glass Association.
I am still of the opinion that Salvador was the main collaborator with Mrs Moncrieff in the design of the early Monart shapes
It worth quoting the two paragraphs in full from Ian’s article.

“but they do require a correction to a statement in YSART GLASS to the effect: the shapes that appear in the pattern books were designed by Mrs Moncrieff in collaboration with Salvador Ysart:
The evidence from both surviving manuscripts does not support that view because all the shapes, all the subsequent amendments are in Paul Ysart’s distinctive hand.  (italics by Ian Turner)
So, to put the record straight, whilst his father Salvador Ysart was undoubtedly the inspiration for Monart Glass and may well have worked with Mrs Moncrieff on all the early colourways, the shapes were primarily Paul Ysart’s responsibility.”

Ian bases his new theory that it was Paul and not Salvador who was the main designer of the Monart shapes purely on the fact that it is only Paul handwriting on the working Monart Lighting Catalogue.
I agree with Ian that Paul’s handwriting has annotated many of the drawings, but roughly a third of the drawings, in my opinion, are written in someone else’s handwriting.
Possibly Salvador's ? who else would have been allowed to write on the working catalogue
Below are the images of the two different handwriting script  taken from the catalogue.
I am no expert on calligraphy but I can see the difference in the hand writting.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: chopin-liszt on October 12, 2012, 04:16:43 PM
 ???
I'm fairly sure that on a visit to the Broughty Ferry Castle Museum, not too long ago, I found some mention of a Tay Glassworks
(the museum is in a fortress right on the Tay)...
When I go again, I'll try to remember to take notes. I'll seee if there's anything in the MacMannus Galleries too, when I next manage a visit.  :)
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on February 07, 2013, 05:59:52 PM
I have manage to get in touch with Ian Turner thanks to GMB and PCC member Derek.
The first message is my request to Ian to clarify his view on the topic.
Hi Ian
My name is Gary Cantwell and live in Perth and have been collecting Ysart glass for seven years , though mainly Monart. The last 4 years or so I have been doing research on Monart, during that time I have had the pleasure of many visits to Perth museum to view the Monart reserve collection and study the archive material, which I believe you donated most of the material. The catalogues (lighting and shape) are the most important for Monart collectors.
If you have time could you read  this topic that I posted GMB and let me know your view on the subject, which would be greatly appreciated. I was not at the Ysart weekend 2005 held in Perth when you discussed who was the main Ysart involved in the design of Monart shapes. http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,44876.0.html
Regards
Gary

This is Ian's reply in full.

Gary
You have been busy!
I have read the GMB messages, but don’t intend to contribute myself to this forum.  Monart is history so far as I am concerned, but I can’t escape it altogether because, for better or worse, I suppose I still know more about it than anyone else thanks to my hours of discussion with Paul at his home in Wick, and with his daughter Adele.
In any event, I don’t have a lot to add to the long article published in the Glass Journal Volume 7.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the the lighting catalogue, which was never published, is in Paul’s hand.  The line drawings and the annotations are his, and he recorded all the changes to shapes and fittings and the agreement of both John Moncrieff and his wife ‘Mrs John’.  That doesn’t mean, of course, that the ‘prototype’ shapes were all blown by Paul.  They probably weren’t.  It’s possible, especially early on, that Mrs John and Salvador chose both the shapes and colourways, but even in the early years it was Paul who was given the task of recording these shapes in a pattern book.  Exactly the same process applied to the Monart Ware shapes.  All the drawings in the manuscript shape pattern books – also lodged in the Museum archive -  were by Paul, and all the photographs in the published pattern books were taken by Paul.  The unpublished catalogue of shapes AI –ZK, reproduced in ‘Ysart Glass’, is entirely in Paul’s hand, and all the photographs, which Paul took, are cut out and stuck on to the shape grid, sometimes overlapping the pencil grid lines.  You will probably have noticed that this pattern book, reproduced in ‘Ysart Glass’, is NOT the pattern book which I deposited with Perth Museum in 2005.  That pattern book was a copy which Paul made for Betty Reid’s use in the dispatch office.  He kept the most up-to-date version.  The ‘Ysart Glass’ unpublished pattern book was Paul’s own copy, and I think it is still owned by the family.
One or two other things to bear in mind.
Paul always had the task of shaping every piece of Monart and every lamp pedestal and shade.  That was his particular task as a member of the Chair in the Monart shop at Moncrieff’s.  Paul told me several times that his father always relied on him to match any piece handed to him by Augy which the other brothers had started off, and he in turn handed the shaped piece on to his father (the gaffer) who decided whether it was of saleable quality or met the requirements of a
special order.  This arrangement continued even when Paul stopped speaking to his father after 1932: Augy was the go-between if any message had to be passed between them.
Also, Paul was highly intelligent and articulate, and it is possible that he was given such important responsibilities at a young age because he had many recognised talents.  He was a very good photographer and he was creative.  It was Paul, not his father, who designed and made all the paperweights which were produced before the Second World War.  These were not made as a collaboration with either his father or any of his brothers.  Indeed, he kept this skill to himself, and never made paperweights when the others were present.  They were all made in the evening when the others had gone home, and the company
tolerated this because they split the profits 50:50 when they were sold.  After the war Paul worked in the same way, going back into the factory after his dinner, and he was allowed to sell his share of the weights to whoever he could.  He used to sell them in the pubs in Perth – and got into trouble with the Inland Revenue when he ‘forgot’ to declare his income in his tax return - and later he had a special arrangement to supply weights to Paul Jokelson in the States.
Another factor, which I cannot prove one way or another, is Salvador’s poor command of English.  Paul mentioned this in passing during one of our conversations, and it may explain why, as the eldest son who had done particularly well at school, he was given so much responsibility as soon as he had served his apprenticeship.
During my writings and lectures on Monart Glass I have never suggested that Paul played a dominant role in the origin of Monart.  Clearly his father was a very talented glass blower and had direct experience of working in the French Art Glass industry.  It was Salvador who blew the raffle prize vase, and it was Salvador who developed the colour schemes in consultation with Mrs M. In all earlier writings about Monart, many highly inaccurate (viz. Savage) as we now know, the whole credit was given to Salvador.  I was trying to redress this in my later writings, and I think my conclusions in 2004 that “...Paul Ysart played a larger role in the early history of Monart production than had been previously suspected”, and that”... Monart production generally almost certainly owed far more to Paul’s genius than has previously been recognised” are right.  I stand by both statements without equivocation.
I hope you find these comments helpful, and I have no objection if you want to post them on the GMB.
If you are coming to the June conference we can perhaps continue this discussion there.
Best wishes
Ian

Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on February 10, 2013, 01:04:51 PM
Which is much clearer than my memory of the talk  :D.

I was also looking at the two writing samples above and I am not convinced that the handwriting is by different people. One is formalised and the other more relaxed, looking at each matching letter, all show similar characteristics which is unlikely fof Father and son especially as they both went to different schools.
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on February 11, 2013, 10:20:57 AM
The concise reply from I Turner on the subject what member of the Ysart along with Mrs Moncrieff designed Monart shape is most informative, to my reading  Salvador was the main collaborator. At no point does Ian say Paul designed the early shapes of Monart. Below are some quotes from Ian's reply.

"That doesn’t mean, of course, that the ‘prototype’ shapes were all blown by Paul.  They probably weren’t.  It’s possible, especially early on, that Mrs John and Salvador chose both the shapes and colourways"

"During my writings and lectures on Monart Glass I have never suggested that Paul played a dominant role in the origin of Monart.  Clearly his father was a very talented glass blower and had direct experience of working in the French Art Glass industry.  It was Salvador who blew the raffle prize vase, and it was Salvador who developed the colour schemes in consultation with Mrs M. In all earlier writings about Monart, many highly inaccurate (viz. Savage) as we now know, the whole credit was given to Salvador.  I was trying to redress this in my later writings, and I think my conclusions in 2004 that “...Paul Ysart played a larger role in the early history of Monart production than had been previously suspected”, and that”... Monart production generally almost certainly owed far more to Paul’s genius than has previously been recognised"


Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on June 17, 2013, 09:32:32 PM
Whilst at the recent Ysart weekend organised by the PCC I came across an article reproduced from the John o Groats Journal (12/5/72) at Broadfield Glass Museum in which Paul Ysart states he left Leith Walk Public School in 1918 aged 14 and began his apprenticeship with his father.
This puts some doubts on the dates that Frank mentions earlier in the thread, that Paul began his apprenticeship at E&L in 1915 and worked at Cochran in 1916.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on June 17, 2013, 11:04:04 PM
Messes things up as the source of the data is the same :-)
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Gary on June 19, 2013, 05:31:48 PM
Messes things up as the source of the data is the same :-)

The data is from the same source ie Paul Ysart, the majority of dates pertaining to the Ysart's working history came from the audio taped interview that Paul give to Alison Clarke in 1988 and by this time was 84 years old and I have got on good authority that Paul's memory had deteriorated by that time. It has now be proven that Paul got some of these dates and facts wrong, the main one being the date the Ysart's started at Moncrieff's, he give 1922 when in fact it was 1921.
Where as the interview with The John o Groats Journal in 1972, he clearly states he left Leith  Walk Public School in 1918 and that the Ysart's started at Moncrieff 1921,which corresponds with the Moncrieff Glassworks employee ledger.
Gary
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Carolyn Preston on June 19, 2013, 11:50:07 PM
I would go with the ledger and the John O'Groats interview. The ledger is not likely to be off by several years and the interview was earlier, when his memory was clearer. Combine that with the fact that we've got a best two out of three situation, and there you go.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Monart discontinued shapes ?
Post by: Frank on June 20, 2013, 12:40:55 AM
Good work. :D

But keep the different accounts on record as neither can be proven conclusively. Although the 72 account sounds good. Never got a date on the Cochran closure (as I recall) so 22 was probably assumption.

At some point we need to add an annotation to the Clarke on line article. Will be doing the SG site upgrade very soon, after which I need others more heavily involved to take things forwards.