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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on December 29, 2011, 10:12:57 AM

Title: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on December 29, 2011, 10:12:57 AM
I've searched extensively on this.  I can match the decor and the shape of the foot and the body to a Loetz Marmoriertes vase, but not the neck of the vase - the nearest I can find has a slight bulge in the neck near the body.  I also can't match the enamel decoration, all those I've found have a different type of decoration.  I am pretty sure the enamel on this one is supposed to be white with an ochre matt goldy outline - i.e. I don't think think any gilt has worn off it.  Hard to show but in between each of the horizontal panels just under the rim there are lots of gilded dots or rather gilded dashes. There is a gilt band just under and around the rim worn with age and a gilt band around the foot.
Mould blown there is no pontil mark on the base but there is a mark which I cannot read and that looks to have been enamelled on.  The base photo makes the swirls look darker than they are as I was trying to highlight the mark. The rim is cut and polished bevelled on both side and then gilded (worn).  The interior is white.  Not uranium glass either inside or out.
There looks to have been another small mark below this as well.  
I was wondering if this isn't Loetz Carneol perhaps it may be Harrach?  
Measures 20cm (7 14/16") tall by 9cm widest just over 3 1/2").
any thoughts?    and thanks  :sun:
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: Mike M on December 29, 2011, 10:36:25 AM
Hi

I think you are on the right track

It's Loetz or Harrach but it is very hard to tell difference - with no pontil mark and a cold cut top I'd definitely lean towards Loetz

cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on December 29, 2011, 10:45:18 AM
Thank you Mike. :sun: 
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: johnphilip on December 29, 2011, 11:23:04 AM
I believe Loetz also!!! and have just looked in Collectable Bohemian glass by Robert and Deborah truit there are several very similar pieces on pages  86 and 87 as Loetz .  Mike is well up in this field . jp  - ps  It also says by 1890 the glass had a pink or white lining
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on December 29, 2011, 04:01:59 PM
Thanks JP  :sun: I managed to find a picture of page 87 where there are vases that, as you say, are remarkably similar in shape.  I'm pretty sure it is Loetz, so I'll keep an eye out for a match on the enamel variation as it is different to those I've seen.  I'm also curious as to the enamel mark on the base.. I wonder if it is the decorators mark? As I remember the Carneol version is dated to 1880 so your comment about the reference to the interior  being white by 1890.  I recall seeing one that did not have this interior and there was a  questioning as to whether it was Loetz marmoriertes.  Perhaps the reference to the interior means that prior to this they were made without the white or pink and just clear.
thanks again for taking the time to look for me.
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: TxSilver on December 29, 2011, 11:32:18 PM
Looks more like Loetz to me. It is more red than ones I have had, but still looks like them.
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on December 30, 2011, 12:13:45 AM
Thank you also Anita  :)   I have found a few in this red and I am convinced, I was just curious about the enamel.  Perhaps a different decorating house or different period from the ones I've seen that all seem to have similar patterns of enamel on a grey/brown background?
JP, thanks again and apologies for my garbled (interrupted by child) message above.  What I meant was your comment was interesting regarding the white interior as I'd seen a query somewhere on one that was just clear on the interior, so I wondered if they originally made these without the cased pink and white interior.
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: TxSilver on December 30, 2011, 12:27:14 AM
Your remark sent me to my files, and I was surprised to find that I did have a vase as red as yours. I attached some pictures of it. It had the pinkish interior and was painted with gold enamel. The ones I had sported either a heavily fired enamel collar or gold enamel. The ones with gold are diverse in the decoration. They all tend to have the "collared" look, as yours does.

I've sometimes wondered if my Loetz vases will end up being Harrachs.
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on December 30, 2011, 12:59:36 AM
Anita that is glorious  :) I was pretty convinced mine is a Loetz piece from what I've found, but slightly confused about the enamelled mark on the bottom to be honest (not that I know much as my 'collection' of Loetz is only just out of the 'mistake' area   ;D and my knowledge of them and Harrach is non existent).  The only marks I've come across are the ones on the Loetz site and the mark doesn't seem to be similar to Harrach marks as far as I can tell.  On the pic I found of page 87 (I presume it is Truitts, I could only find a picture with the page number on - and thanks JP for the info) there is a bowl/vase on there that is  similar in shape to yours on the body but slightly different on the neck shape.  Likewise there is a vase where the foot and body of the vase are the same as mine but the neck on mine is more similar to another shaped vase bottom left.  What is slightly confusing about the written piece accompanying the picture that I also found, is that they say by 1890 the interiors were white or pink and the marbling white bits were uranium on the exterior -  mine isn't.  I implied from that, that if it had a white interior it would be uranium on the exterior but perhaps either that info isn't correct  anymore or I've assumed incorrectly :-\
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: TxSilver on December 30, 2011, 01:57:02 AM
m, now I am wondering about both your and my vase. Mine is not marked on bottom, but the pattern is so similar. The Harrach project has a "signature" with a P.number a little over halfway down the page at http://glasscollector.net/ProjectHarrach/ProjectHarrachGlassID.html. The P. looks a lot like yours to me, though yours does not have the numbers over and under it. Harrach signatures were variable (or absent). I hope someone can provide more insight.

It will not surprise me if my vase turns out to be Harrach.
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on December 30, 2011, 12:23:04 PM
Anita yes it does look as though it is written in a similar way.  In addition there is another mark further down that page, which is the Harrach feathers mark and a number and it looks as though it was applied in the same way with pale enamel, as mine.  To be honest mine is so worn off that I had a hard time working it out at all without a loup and it was only by photographing it that I could read it (hence the base shot looking so dark which it isn't in reality).
I did find another vase id'd as Harrach that is a similarish shape to mine... but it is really only 'similarish' and whilst it is difficult to tell from photographs, my instinct still says mine looks more like the ones id'd as Loetz on that page 87 (see my comments above about the body and neck of the vase).
So I have  question...were the photographs in the Truitt's book based on the catalogued Loetz shapes for id?  If so that should confirm their id and I wonder if my (and your) vase shape might be in the pattern books?
I don't have Ricke or Truitt's yet, so until then I'm just working in the dark. 
thanks again  :)
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: TxSilver on December 30, 2011, 01:54:57 PM
I checked Truitt's book and see a couple of my vases there on pages 86-87. At the time the book was written, it was the best knowledge of the time. Since then, many people have done more work on Bohemian glass. There are many mistakes in the book that have been revealed with the additional research. This is not to discredit the book, only to credit the additional research that has revealed the new attributions. I would trust what looks to be a mark on the bottom of your vase more than I would trust the book.

This is a most helpful thread. Bohemian glass is often difficult to attribute correctly. This makes me question about half of the carneol vases that I had attributed to Loetz. I am fairly confident about the ones with the moriage collars, but not so sure about the others now.
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on December 30, 2011, 03:17:59 PM
Interesting and thanks  :sun: I am trying to get a better picture of the mark on mine, taking it under a magnifying glass to try and get the bottom mark in as well, but not having much luck at the moment.  I have searched extensively before posting, to try and match the enamelling  and also the shape as Harrach, but nothing so far.  However, it is difficult because apart from the one I did find as a near shape where I think the id is genuine, I never know if the attribution is based on fact or just internet id if you see what I mean :-\  I'll let you know if I find out any more. 
thanks again
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 03, 2012, 03:35:36 PM
I've seen another vase (not Marmoriertes) late 1880's, that has 'Moser' and a number enamelled on the base of it.  Decorated by Moser but not made by Moser.  So would I be right in thinking mine could be a Loetz Marmoriertes vase with another house enamelling it and therefore the mark on the base is the enamellers mark?  Or would that not have happened with Loetz pieces?  
I have seen reference that Harrach blanks were used by Moser - and I assume other enamellers as well from that?#
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: johnphilip on January 03, 2012, 03:51:08 PM
I know Moser enamelled on Salviati blanks , i had a couple in the canine and flora pattern , so i suppose there were others used , mine sold at the major Bond St Auction house a while back .

 
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 03, 2012, 04:19:34 PM
Thank you JP  :) 
Do we know that Loetz sold/collaborated with others for enamelling or were they always done in house?
I'm still thinking this is a Loetz piece, I've found another page of the Truitts book and a few further pieces and the marbling and colour of mine matches them, and I've seen a few more pieces with variation on the enamelling, though not a match for mine.

And I now don't think the enamel mark on the base ties it particularly to Harrach, because I have seen a piece enamelled with Moser on the base that is in similar style lettering (perhaps this was the 'in' way of the day)and similarly applied pale enamel (as far as I can tell from photos of course).  Therefore this could well be an enamellers mark rather than specifically a Harrach mark I think  :-\
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: johnphilip on January 03, 2012, 04:46:50 PM
Well my gut feeling is Loetz but Mike M IS more knowledgeable in that stable .  The other guy to ask is Mike Weedon in Camden Passage but i dont believe he is a GMB member , he is a Major dealer in that type of glass . The two of them are as near as you will get to an expert in GB .
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 04, 2012, 11:54:51 AM
thank you  :sun:
more pictures of the base for reference.  I cannot get the bottom mark any better, it is very worn but definitely there as I can feel it with my fingers as well.
I think the top mark reads P.588. or P.688. and the bottom may be 5/2 but that is a real best guess.
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 19, 2012, 05:12:13 PM
found another marmoriertes vase in malachite (green no white interior, heavily gilded) but with a number enamelled on the base, or rather gilded.
So Loetz pieces were numbered sometimes.
And just found another on a deep pink carneol piece with the heavy neck decoration but the delicate enamel decoration on the heavy background is the same flower and such similar curly leaf bits that it looks to be the same house decorator.  Feeling good  ;D

m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: johnphilip on January 19, 2012, 05:34:20 PM
Hi M did you know you now have a stalker . :pb  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 19, 2012, 05:43:14 PM
JP there really is no point  ;D my collection of decent pieces is so tiny.....whereas my collection of  errrhumm, 'learning curve' glass, is rather vast - and bearing in mind I call anything a collection once I have three pieces  :24:
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on February 09, 2012, 02:22:09 PM
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/41326-loetz-turmalin-prod-nr-2-536-1902?in=666
Loetz vase here with a number gilded on the base that is a Dekor number.
just adding to the thread with info that may be helpful in the future  :) so another example of a Loetz piece that has a decorator mark on the base.
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on February 09, 2012, 05:24:06 PM
and here is a Loetz vase signed with 2 sets of numbers including a P - comment indicates that the P may stand for patent
the description in case it disappears in time, says
'Loetz Enameled Bird Vase.  Very similar to Alpen Red Decor... c.1893 '(for description of pic again in case it disappears,  in my eyes it looks to have a glossy deep dark red surface, not see through really, and is enameled with heavy gold enamelling of a bird and leaves, flowers, branches)

On the bottom it has enamelled numbers 691/1 P.265

http://www.jwartglass.com/sys-catalog_single_details.asp?catid=16517&categoryID=4992&category=Y&seq=2&PageID=128532&SiteID=34884

Edited to add later:
 but... at the bottom of that link it says see Loetz Bohemian Glass 1980-1940 (sic) for a similarly enamelled piece.  Out of curiosity I looked at that page in Truitts - it's the Harrach section and I couldn't see a similar piece.  I then turned the page to page 56 and there is a vase (different decor, different shape) there also under Harrach that does have quite remarkably similar gilded enamel decoration.  So can it be the same decorator for a Harrach and a Loetz piece?  I presume it can?

m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on February 09, 2012, 10:47:39 PM
edit to above post - I meant to say the reference  says to look at page 54, and also to add that the book referred to is not the Truitt book, but I just looked in it out of curiosity as it's my 'new' purchase  :)
The enamelling is similar on the Harrach vase but not identical.  However I guess this doesn't help tease out whether or not mine is one or t'other conclusively anyway.  But it does show that Loetz vases did have the enamelled numbers on the base.
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on February 10, 2012, 12:18:37 AM
and is confirmation also that the letter P is shown enamelled on the base of some Loetz vases along with numbers.  I wonder if the numbers could be the production number and/or the reference for the enamel decor then?
 :) I know, I'm talking to myself at the moment, but I don't want to lose the references and my train of thought  ;D and I can't afford to buy the books to check lol
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: obscurities on February 10, 2012, 02:16:40 AM
Loetz did use some numeric designations on various styles of decorated pieces.

Attached is the underside of a DEK 1/290 & a DEK 296

Craig
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on February 10, 2012, 08:43:48 AM
thank you  :sun:
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on March 03, 2012, 03:21:43 AM
that mark is a definite Harrach Mark. Loetz tends to either just be numbers or limited to the I in their markings. the P.xxx is a classic form/ mark from Harrach. I have a number of Harrach pieces that are marked in that fashion.

Imho This is without doubt a Harrach piece.

I have a number of Harrach pieces on my web site. if they are marked I have included the marks. The yellow ones as I recall all have p.xxx marks.

http://www.thegildedcurio.com/

Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: Ohio on March 03, 2012, 04:51:59 AM
azelismia stunning collection. I have to add though that under American #58 is not Steuben, its Beaumont, Wheeling, WV & the etching is Wheeling Decorating's D-51 Drapes. It is found in your opaque blue & your opaque ivory, batch colors from Beaumont S & P shakers in the late 19-teens thru early 20's. I have its twin. I will say that there is a bit of local Wheeling lore attached to these that concerns a young blower from Hobbs that left for Corning, stayed there for only a couple of years & returned to Wheeling going to work for Beaumont, but the hometown Wheeling Decorating's Drapes is the key. Ken
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on March 03, 2012, 09:17:30 AM
Hi Azelismia, thanks for your comments  :) and what a fabulous site you have - thanks for the link.

I have not been able to find a complete match on shape with either Harrach vases or Loetz vases.  I feel pretty sure the decor (marbling) on this is the same as many vases I have looked at, identified as Loetz Carneol Marmoriertes.  I suppose it doesn't mean they all are Loetz but I've assumed if they are a firm id that they have been matched to the Loetz known shapes for this decor.  Assuming is not good I know.
I also assumed Truitt's would have done a match with the documented  Loetz shapes for the pieces they have pictured.  
In Truitt's page 87, my vase is the closest in shape and a match for the decor to  the vase pictured top right no1.
Where it doesn't match the Truitt description is:
1) they say the early vases were coloured glass over clear and used no uranium (my vase is coloured glass over white and uses no uranium)
2) they say by 1890 the glass had a pink or white lining and the white striping of the glass contained uranium salts (my vase has a white lining but doesn't contain uranium salts)
I assume again, that they have tested this theory with all the vases they have pictured and that they are sure that no Loetz Carneol Marmoriertes was produced with a white interior but not containing uranium.
I'm interested to see if there are any Loetz Marmoriertes piece out there with a white or pink interior that do not contain uranium.  If there are then either a) this disproves what they have said or b) the vases are not Loetz.
So, if they have proved this theory and all are documented Loetz shapes, then no, my vase does not fit their criteria, but yes, it has a matching decor.

I would think that for my vase to be classified as Loetz I need to be able to match the shape to a documented Loetz shape for it and I don't have access to that data.  

If it is Harrach, then I think it poses an interesting debate in that the decor is the same as the Loetz Carneol Marmoriertes.  I think it could also call into question other pieces id as Loetz in this colour and decor.
Thanks again very much for taking the time to reply.  It is much appreciated.
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on March 04, 2012, 10:39:43 AM
thanks Ohio, I'll change that. I thought they looked a little different from the shape but hadn't seen any other contenders.



FF, With this type of glass it's not a matter of shape matches or anything like that. These companies all copied each other profusely. There are a number of shapes I could show you of many different types of glass from various companies that are all very similar. Before seeing some of these shapes you might think they were unique shapes.. but they're not. Apparently this was even true over here in America. The vase that Ohio pointed out from my collection is very very close to a Steuben shape.. but it's not.

 Adding to the confusion is that very often a retailer or a importer would contract a shape and decor from a number of various companies. they'd all fill the same shape and decor and it would ship out. what do you get? the same piece of glass made by 5 different houses. It was common place. It makes it all very confusing. Sometimes you get lucky and find a mark on a piece that shows provenance such as the one you have.

the markings on this are definitely Harrach markings. I have seen many pieces of absolutely confirmed Harrach with markings just like this and never a piece of Loetz.

This piece is definitely a harrach version of the carneol.  The uranium is a moot point. Both companies used Uranium and did not use uranium at different points in production. Loetz started making this kind of glass in 1882 iirc. the early production didn't have uranium but later production did. Harrach didn't  have any such rule that is known. Some has uranium and some does not.

And yes there is a lot of Harrach identified as Loetz in the Carneol arena. Sometimes Even people with a lot of it aren't sure which is which. I have a few such pieces and one that I am looking into more right now that I currently have Id'd as Loetz. (which is how I found this two month old thread)

Warrens site also has a bunch of Harrach pieces with the p.xxx mark. https://sites.google.com/site/bohemianglassandmore/harrach

the mark is proof positive... it's Harrach not Loetz.
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on March 04, 2012, 12:02:06 PM
Hi Azelismia

thank you again for your detailed response.  At the outset I should say that whether or not this vase is Harrach or Loetz is not an issue for me.  It is a beautiful vase and desirable whichever maker it originated from.  However, I beg to differ that the faint enamelled numbers on the base are a deciding factor on positively identifying that this came from Harrach. 

I'm not saying it isn't a Harrach vase, indeed I raised the issue originally.  But in my view it takes more than one significant factor to try and id a vase if you don't have the original pattern books or positive confirmation from the maker.  The link you have given to Warren's site is one I use regularly.  There is one vase on that page which appears to have enamelled numbers done using the same enamel as my vase, the others don't.  That one vase is not positively id'd as Harrach as far as I can see, using either a pattern book or confirmation from Harrach that the vase came from them.
In addition to which, on that page, there is a vase  there with peacock eyes, that I happen to think is quite possibly a Stuart vase.  Likewise in Truitt's there is a vase on page 67 id'd as Harrach that I believe is also a Stuart vase.
There is also a vase in Gulliver's Victorian Decorative Glass page 103 British Designs 1850-1914 (copyright 2002), that looks to be similar to at least two pieces on the link page you just gave.  It also has a P number written on the bottom and a stamped registered design number with the number ascribed to John Walsh Walsh in the Registered Designs book of Representations, although it records that a certificate was not issued for this number.  Personally I am of the opinion or guess that the vase has a very Bohemian look to me but that is just instinct/guesswork - and also that the RD issue is an anomaly somehow.  But whether or not t is,is not actually confirmed by either of the two vases on the link page being positively id'd as Harrach either.  And I could well be wrong - it could well be that that particular range of vases are in fact English and by Walsh Walsh.
So you can see what I mean?  I don't think it is possible to just say that because of the numbers on the base this is positively id'd as Harrach. 

Again I should stress that I'm not saying it isn't Harrach or isn't Loetz.  It's of no concern to me financially (unless I wish to sell in which case it will become more important).  I'm just raising the issues that going by one factor alone is not enough I don't think, to id a vase.

m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: obscurities on March 04, 2012, 03:38:17 PM
I do not know who the vase is by, but felt it is a pertinent point to bring up that in many cases we are not even 100% sure who did the enameling on many pieces. Many houses bought blanks and decorated them in house. Hosch is surely an example of just such a firm. In this case the item is of a dual attribution....  Many piece of the Hosch catalog are Kralik glass, hence a Kralik / Hosch attribution.

Let me play the devil's advocate here for a minute......

I do have a question for Azelismia....  Can you please cite a reference or provide links to or images of documented Harrach examples for your statement other than attributed pieces you have seen.
The markings on this are definitely Harrach markings. I have seen many pieces of absolutely confirmed Harrach with markings just like this and never a piece of Loetz. ...............
the mark is proof positive... it's Harrach not Loetz.

Is there documentation (proof positive) that this is a Harrach mark?  Without such documentation, the best it seems we could say for sure is that it was decorated by firm xxxxx on what appears to be possibly a Harrach or Loetz blank, or we could say that the mark seems to fall in line with the marks found on some examples of known Harrach production.

I would also address shape as a solid reference point in more cases than not.... shapes which are close to each other are not the same as shapes that are the same. A close examination of shapes generally will lead one to a determination if it is a "Design Shift (copying a shape) or actually the same shape with a small variation as a result of hand production. IMHO, many similar shapes were not actually copied but were simply so generic that they resembled each other by simplicity of design..... That being said, the comparison of shapes should, by necessity, involve using examples which preferably contain a design element which is more likely than not to be specific to a particular house.......

thanks Ohio, I'll change that. I thought they looked a little different from the shape but hadn't seen any other contenders...........The vase that Ohio pointed out from my collection is very very close to a Steuben shape.. but it's not. 

I will use your "Close to Steuben" Wheeling piece as an example.....

As the old saying goes "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades"  .....   ;D :thup:
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: Ohio on March 04, 2012, 07:06:18 PM
Well in the U.S. just about everyone sold to the decorating houses so you have to know "who" for the the decoration. Then add to that some companies actually sold blanks to other companies even though they were  competitors. From 1928 to 1932 Tiffin sold their 151 line black satin blanks to Consolidated then Consolidated staff artists decorated them & sold them as Consolidated...always with the large air brushed parrot that was far different from tne Tiffin parrot. Result? Both collecting groups recognize them as Tiffin/Consolidated & there is no problem with attribution.

Its a tough challenge at times no matter what side of the pond you are on due to  these factors that present a "Only Questions-No Answers" scenerio...one that I don't attempt to tackle much anymore.  

As for Harrach...about 6 months ago I was given the "Harrach Project" website when I had a tough Harrach question. Problem is that the site's email addy as well as two other email addys for the individual all came back undeliverable & after repeated attempts I finally gave up so I can save you some time...don't bother.

 

 
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on March 05, 2012, 02:43:26 AM
I know Brian, who has the Harrach project site. I will ask him to look here. Here is an example that has the propeller mark and the p number mark from Warrens page. is st

https://sites.google.com/site/bohemianglassandmore/harrach

it's at the very bottom of the page. the blue piece with handles.


and the one in Mervyns book is Harrach. The Registry number as I recall is an importers thing.
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: Ohio on March 05, 2012, 05:04:28 AM
I've got at least two Harrach vases...probably won't help much though.
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on March 05, 2012, 05:21:07 AM
that pink one is gorgeous.

Actually Brian's page has a couple examples iwth the p.xxx and the feather plume mark as well.

http://www.glasscollector.net/ProjectHarrach/ProjectHarrachGlassID.html
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: calcobra on March 05, 2012, 09:04:21 AM
I am the owner of "Project Harrach" better known as Glasscollector.net, and I apologize for my site email being down at the moment.  Unfortunately, aside from the avalanche of spam, the majority of inquiries I receive are from people wanting me to ID their glass and tell them how much it's worth.  With a very busy work schedule, it's taken a back seat for a bit as other priorities take precedence.  Later this year I will be revamping it, adding new content, new Harrach research (I have a ton), and bringing my site email back online once I get a more robust spam solution.   You are more then welcome to email me from this site.  

A couple of points to make about some of the comments in this thread:

The Truitt Bohemian glass books are more accurate then most people will ever know.  Most of the content, particularly in the first volume, is sourced from exceedingly knowledgeable Czech (as in Czech citizens) Bohemian glass experts who have been researching Bohemian glass most of their adult life.  They have hoards of original documents, sales catalogs, factory design books, etc., on which they base their attributions. It's not free from errors, but I would say it is without a doubt one of the more error free books when it comes to glass research.

I would like to clear the following comment:

The vase in Gulliver's Victorian Decorative Glass page 103 British Designs 1850-1914 (copyright 2002), that looks to be similar to at least two pieces on the link page you just gave.  It also has a P number written on the bottom and a stamped registered design number with the number ascribed to John Walsh Walsh in the Registered Designs book of Representations, although it records that a certificate was not issued for this number.  Personally I am of the opinion or guess that the vase has a very Bohemian look to me but that is just instinct/guesswork - and also that the RD issue is an anomaly somehow.

Having known this type of glass was Harrach for quite some time, when I saw this attribution in Gulliver's book, I was shocked that he attributed it to JWW (especially considering it looks nothing remotely similar to anything documented by Eric Reynolds as JWW).   There are clearly several other Bohemian pieces in the book attributed to various British makers, but to some extent this is expected as tons of Bohemian glass was made for the British market, much of which was contracted by importers, and even prominent British glass houses.   Of course it's well documented that Harrach made not only glass blanks, but also completely finished products (enameled, or cut/engraved, etc.) which were sold by other glass houses as their own products.  

The main problem trying to attribute the vase in question based on the mark shown in Gulliver's book, is that the RD# shown is not complete, as the stamp didn't make it's full impression on the base of the vase.  

The full stamp reads:  Rd No. 107802
                              MADE IN BOHEMIA

The vase in Gulliver's book was in fact made by Harrach, produced under contract by Krausse and Auerbach, which is the firm that registered the design (a very German sounding importer at that).  Deborah Truitt did a research trip to England a few years ago, and as she was planning to visit the British Archives, I asked her to track down this particular RD#.   How Gulliver could attribute it to anyone, let alone JWW, based on an incomplete RD#, is anyones guess.  

Also this vase is 100% Harrach:

http://www.jwartglass.com/sys-catalog_single_details.asp?catid=16517&categoryID=4992&category=Y&seq=2&PageID=128532&SiteID=34884

It's wishful thinking on the part of the seller on the Loetz attribution.  I find it ironic that dealers, and auction houses tend to error on the side of the more expensive price tag, then simply saying they don't know.

Now on to the topic of discussion.

I had a hard time seeing the mark on your vase.  I was initially thinking it was just a letter, followed by three numbers, but I see now it's more like P.588 or P.688 with a 5/2 underneath it (thanks Alisa for the clarification, I really was having a difficult time seeing anything on there).

Harrach definitely made Carneol glass (as well as a gamete of other "stone" glass), and this would be a typical Harrach mark of design and decoration numbers.  I've seen very few pieces of Loetz that had any type of numbers at all on the base, but the few examples I've seen tended to be Roman numerals on Victorian era Loetz glass.

I'm visiting the Harrach factory in May, and plan to spend further time in the Harrach museum depository where there are around 5,000 pieces of Harrach antique glass.  I'll examine the examples of Harrach Carneol in their collection to see if they may hold additional clues.  

Happy hunting,
Brian

Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on March 06, 2012, 12:17:36 AM
thank you Brian for such a detailed reply  :)
Thanks also for the explanation of the mentioned vase in Gullivers.
I have to say reference books can generally be difficult.   I was not criticising either source (Truitt's or Gulliver's) as I recognise the enormous amount of time, effort, knowledge and money that goes into providing such a reference.  I was however pointing out that sometimes it is prudent to question what is found, especially if new proof-positive information becomes available.Once the information is out there in print it gets used as verbatim, if an id is given, and it makes it difficult in the future to adjust as new information becomes available.   Gulliver's did not id that vase as Walsh Walsh, and as far as I can see have only id'd vases where there are patterns or  and registered designs to support the id.  On the Truitt's pieces I questioned, those vase have been id'd as Harrach but I do think they are not.  I think one of the  problems that can occur is that sometimes vases are found in a particular 'manufacturers collection' and it is assumed they are therefore from that factory, but actually they may just be 'part' of the collection and from a completely different source originally.  I'm sure I have read on here that that has happened with Richardson pieces I believe.

If I hadn't questioned my vase at the start of this thread, I could have quite happily carried on deciding it was definitely Loetz based on the pictures in Truitts and other items I have found and eventually maybe sold it as such.  The reason I started this thread was that I am interested to find out some more information on my vase and I do think there are a number of possible outcomes from that questioning.
Once you have completed your visit, if you felt you could share the information, I would be really interested to hear what your findings are regarding the Marmoriertes vases  and would be most appreciative if you have time to update the thread  :)
Many thanks again
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: Ohio on March 06, 2012, 05:10:36 PM
Brian glad you are updating your site. Was just a bit frustrating getting the emails kicked back after Dave Peterson gave me your email & also the site email. My question wasn't one of values, it was a basket that Dave thought you might have seen in your travels. I'll wait for the updates & contact you. Ken
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: calcobra on March 06, 2012, 06:18:29 PM
Hi Ken,

I'm not sure what email Dave has (perhaps my old cisco email, but I've moved on to greener pastures).

Please feel free to contact me at my personal email addy I've had for almost 20 years: 

b_severn AT yahoo DOT com

As long as yahoo doesn't go belly up, it won't change  :thup:

Happy hunting,
Brian
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: Ohio on March 07, 2012, 05:22:59 AM
Thanks Brian. Ken
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 20, 2013, 02:29:00 PM
with reference Brian's post here on page 4
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,45286.msg260749.html#msg260749
 in response to a query I made regarding a vase in Gulliver's Decorative Victorian British Glass 1850-1914, I saw a pair of these vases on our favourite auction site.  Not my thing so I didn't bid but one was clearly marked on the base in the shot
'MADE IN BOHEMIA' and the reg design no also although the pic hard to see and the last number looked like it could have been a 4.
Sorry it's a link and the pics will disappear in time.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-pair-of-Bohemian-glass-vases-/330857677429?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=e447Of30ZdzIJI0EiiWjsE6X0jE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: Ohio on January 20, 2013, 03:11:11 PM
M this is actually very helpful as this particular (exact) vase is & has been in the past attributed as Mt. Washington by a few. Thanks, Ken
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: TxSilver on January 20, 2013, 03:34:20 PM
I had always seen this design attributed to Harrach. It is in Truitt's book if I remember right.
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 20, 2013, 03:38:14 PM
Hi Anita
I wasn't questioning Brian's identification, but thought that having a shot of the vase clearly marked might be good.
My original question in the thread was because there is a vase the same in Gulliver's Victorian Glass identified as registered by John Walsh Walsh.
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on January 21, 2013, 01:56:49 AM
Gullivers book was wrong on those. they are absolutely Harrach. Walsh walsh did not make glass like these. it was a misattribution before people knew who harrach were. people also still mistake Harrach for mt washington. it's a fallacy that will never end apparently :)

Btw, I still hold that the marmorietes in this thread is absolutely Harrach. :)
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 21, 2013, 07:36:53 AM
I know that  :)
 Brian had already elucidated on that. 
My original question was raised because there was a conflict in reference sources between vases on an net site and a vase in Gulliver's.  I just though it would be nice for the board members who don't have copies of the books, to be able to see what was discussed and the markings on the base of the vase, which are not clear in the Gulliver's book.
And no that vase is not in Truitt's 1880-1940 under Harrach,  unless I've missed it re-checking :)

With regards my Marmoriertes vase, I need proof :)  I raised the question in the first place because of conflicting pieces on the net.
But I've not been able to match the shape or the decor to Harrach. But then I've not seen the archive collection and I've not got the book to be fair. However Truitt's photographed at the museum and they don't have an example in the book.  All their examples are categorised as Loetz.
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on January 21, 2013, 08:27:19 AM
Loetz never marked vases like this. Loetz designations had roman numerals and then a number. Sometimes their earlier pieces just had four numbers in gold.

Harrach commonly did mark with Letters and numbers. (sometimes they used a roman numeral too but it was in different format than you see the loetz pieces). The P stands for production number and I have a lot of Harrach pieces in my collection with a mark starting with a P.followed by a few numbers.


Here are some examples

http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-484.html
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/images-large/177-e.JPG
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-389.html
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-131.html
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-33.html
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-128.html
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-141.html
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-263.html
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-264.html
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-265.html

:)

The Harrach museum and PMC also had a ton of examples marked thusly.

It's very hard to tell loetz and harrach marmorietes apart but a mark like this is a pretty clear differentiation to my eye. 

Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on January 21, 2013, 08:50:48 AM
https://picasaweb.google.com/thefiresidecatt/20120526?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCOmx1Prm15WjVA&feat=directlink

here is an example of the second piece in question at the Harrach museum
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on January 21, 2013, 02:37:02 PM
and here is one more on collectors weekly. I need to update my website again. I don't have this up yet. This one has the full Harrach marking plus a p.xxx mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JEMWN8SKJg

LOL that was an uncalled for jack horkheimer roll on my part. :)

here's the real link.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/74080-harrach-thistle-vase
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 21, 2013, 02:48:09 PM
wrong link?  :) m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on January 21, 2013, 03:03:11 PM
real link added LOL
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 21, 2013, 03:49:57 PM
 ;D
thank you for taking the time to do that.  You've been really helpful.
 I love looking at your site as a reference as your collection is amazing. 
 You have far more references to hand and a much greater experience of handling and seeing a huge range of glass than I do and you may well turn out to be right  :)

I'm still missing the final link to confirm the id of my vase though  :-[  I need to find a vase that has the mark enamelled in the same way and is the same shape. (obviously it would be perfect to also find one in the same decor but that's probably stretching it).

I've found one that looks as though it might be the same type of enameling to do the mark as the one on mine here (see link). It's a vase 37 pictures down on the left hand side, tall dark iridescent vase with pretty trailed flowers and leaves on it - it doesn't have a definitely confirmed id though -
https://sites.google.com/site/bohemianglassandmore/harrach
and also the dark blue cobalt one with handles on the right hand side where the enamel of the mark looks very similar to mine and it has the propellor mark.

 I've also found one id'd as Loetz Marmoriertes with some enamelling on that matches mine, but obviously that might turn out to be Harrach I suppose.   I'm a bit bemused, given Harrach were such a prolific glass producer, that I haven't matched the shape yet to be honest.  It's a mould blown shape.  As I have said before, I don't mind what it is, but I'd like to know for sure.
Thanks so much again for all your help :)
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on January 22, 2013, 12:09:39 AM
you cannot go by enamelling to id a glass house. Enamelling was very often done by other companies. it is very possible to have the same exact decor from two houses due to consignment by purchasers for resale.

shape is a little more reliable but the same problem exists, glass was consigned by more than one house and molds were provided  by the consignor.

here is an example from one of the kralik museums. this is Kralik/Meyrs Neffe

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/G6RWJoo1FTzeT2Jk8QmJg1gUhNGuNUwtTddEOm_3hHc?feat=directlink

htis is Harrach

http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-457.html


I asked Jitka about it and she was like, oh yeah, you can't do that. decoration was often applied elsewhere.. that made me want to cry and give up glass but it is what it is. Because I already knew that you couldn't absolutely rely on shape for attribution.

Anyway imho you already have the best clue on your piece. the mark. it's either Harrach or Loetz;  Loetz never used marks like that and Harrach did. Easy peasy.

I have shapes from Harrach that I have not seen duplicated. Just because they were prolific doesn't mean they reused every shape they had a ton.
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 22, 2013, 02:13:01 AM
The reason I raised this issue in the first place was because there seemed to be conflict of attributions on the net and I wanted to be sure my identification was correct.
Having purchased the Truitt’s book after I started this thread, I’ve persisted with a feeling of not being sure of where my vase comes from because whilst the décor is in there, the shape is not and also because of a description of Loetz Marmorierte Glas  in the Truitt’s book that says ‘’…The early examples were colored glass over clear and used no uranium in the formula.  By 1890 the glass had a pink or white lining and the white striping of the glass contained uranium salts.’  My vase fits in that it has the white lining, however the stripes do not contain uranium salts. 

With regards your comments above :
I agree that Harrach were a prolific producer of glass and probably had thousands of moulds therefore it's not unusual that I can't find a shape match.

I don't know how it can be proved that Loetz never marked in this way.

I don't know how it can be proved that a decorating house other than Harrach never marked in this way either.  See my comment earlier in this thread quoted below
'And I now don't think the enamel mark on the base ties it particularly to Harrach, because I have seen a piece enamelled with Moser on the base that is in similar style lettering (perhaps this was the 'in' way of the day)and similarly applied pale enamel (as far as I can tell from photos of course).  Therefore this could well be an enamellers mark rather than specifically a Harrach mark I think   '

I'm not trying to be difficult but I have not seen any referenced evidence regarding how the market worked regarding orders and who did or did not make the moulds for various orders.
I have read Craig's comments in this thread (see link)and agree with his comments  and especially those regarding identification and the importance of shape and decor.
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/77917-shapes-and-decors-and-all-those-glass-ho?in=442

 Basically I don't feel that just having an enamelled letter and number mark is sufficient to categorise my vase.  It’s not a signature that reads ‘Loetz’ or ‘Harrach’ and it’s not a Harrach propeller mark and nor is there any evidence at all that there was one there, even on close examination under a loupe and strong lighting for a sheeny remaining evidence of something.  And I did find a signed Moser piece that marked in a similar way.

 I do think the mark might be useful as a piece of supporting evidence used in combination with other categoric evidence of source of production, but at the moment I don't have that other categoric evidence -  i.e. in the case of Harrach, an identified vase in this decor or in this shape , or in the case of Loetz an identified vase in this shape.

I do however have a number of identified Loetz vases in this décor in Truitt’s, but just not in my shape. I have seen plenty of vases in a similar decor and colour attributed to Loetz and identified as Loetz Marmorierte Karneol.   I have also found one (and I think two but I can’t find my reference at the moment)vase  identified as Loetz Marmorierte that has a small part of the enamelling that matches a small part of mine.  And Mike commented earlier that with the rim finish and no pontil mark he would lean towards Loetz. 

 By contrast I have no confirmed identifications for Harrach producing this and have not been able to match any of the enamel work.  In Truitt’s it says that they photographed pieces at Harrach that had never left the factory.  There are none that are the same decor or shape as my vase or have enamelling decoration that I can match, yet there are 86 vases photographed from Harrach. However both you and Brian have a vast knowledge of Harrach and feel the mark on the base is a Harrach mark.  With Loetz by comparison they have only 25 photographs and 9 of those are Marmorierte glass, 6 in red.  Unfortunately, none are the same shape as mine and none have enamelling decoration that I can match.

 So on balance the evidence so far leans towards either/or and   for Loetz I would require a shape match for me to feel comfortable with that.  And certainly the mark on the bottom gives me cause for query.  And for Harrach I need a confirmed identification of this Marmoriertes colour and or a shape.

So far no one has come forward to say there are any of these in the Harrach book, but then neither has anyone confirmed the shape from the Loetz patterns although many of those have yet to be identified I understand. 

I do not have sufficient resources to double check the shapes and pattern numbers of those vases identified as Loetz in the Truitt’s book but assume they are, given the assertions on this thread of the rigour of the Truitt’s book. 

Neither can I check all the ones available on the net attributed to Loetz, to be sure they are all Loetz Marmoriertes matched patterns for shapes.  If I could, and I found some that were definitely not Loetz then of course that would help.   But so far I have no evidence from anyone else that any of those vases can be identified as not being Loetz Marmoriertes Karneol. 
The ones I’ve found attributed to Harrach do not have the same décor colour.

So in summary, I’m still where I was at, at the beginning of this thread.  There is not enough evidence to support one way or another.
And that is the biggest issue at stake here.   If it is finally found that my vase is Harrach then there might be a re-categorisation of glass previously identified as Loetz.  So I think it is important to ensure that any identification is absolutely correct and has evidence to support it :)

m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on January 22, 2013, 02:17:04 AM
ok, you go! I've said all I can say. have fun with it :)


(it's really not loetz though)

Wait, I guess I do have a couple pics. the one on the floor is at the Harrach depository and the other is at the UPM for the great anniversary of Harrach exposition.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/AaBrPON0aCXoj_MnFSY3Y_iepaC6HmOqHRqF2S98L-U?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4pyNpMD_TmrufLnL6dU5cviepaC6HmOqHRqF2S98L-U?feat=directlink
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 22, 2013, 02:30:06 AM
 ;D
one day there will be enough evidence to support it whichever way it turns out.
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on January 22, 2013, 02:31:32 AM
Please revisit my last comment now. I provided some photographs
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on January 22, 2013, 04:47:22 AM
Wait, I guess I do have a couple pics. the one on the floor is at the Harrach depository and the other is at the UPM for the great anniversary of Harrach exposition.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/AaBrPON0aCXoj_MnFSY3Y_iepaC6HmOqHRqF2S98L-U?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4pyNpMD_TmrufLnL6dU5cviepaC6HmOqHRqF2S98L-U?feat=directlink
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 22, 2013, 12:17:17 PM
Thank you for sharing :)

Unfortunately neither of those vases are the same colour as mine, nor the same shape, nor do  they have the foot as mine does and nor can I match the enamelling  :(

In colour and decor my vase is a match for the vase in Truitt's under Loetz page 87 no 1 Carneol.  Regarding the enamelling, the little 5petal flower and leaf sprig is like the one on page 87 Loetz 2. Onyx. I'll find my other reference for th enamelling and post it here.
m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 01, 2014, 01:45:09 PM
I'm no further forward on matching the shape of my vase to either Harrach or Loetz so far, but further to some discussion comments earlier in the thread:
 ‘… I've seen very few pieces of Loetz that had any type of numbers at all on the base, but the few examples I've seen tended to be Roman numerals on Victorian era Loetz glass. ‘  on page 4 of this thread

And

‘Loetz never marked vases like this. Loetz designations had roman numerals and then a number. Sometimes their earlier pieces just had four numbers in gold. ‘  on page 5 of this thread

For future reference, I just wanted to add some links to a Loetz Octopus vase  that is on sale at the moment.
 There is a very clear picture of the base and on the base:
- It is marked in  whitish enamel rather than gilding.
- It is marked 'Patent 9159' with the word 'Patent' written in script and sitting a line above the numbers inside a polished pontil mark.

I'm assuming since it is a patent mark that the mark belongs to Loetz and refers to the decor and/or shape rather than the enamelling on the vase, which, in this case, actually only has gilded decoration on the background of the vase as far as I can see, and no white enamelling on it.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wonderful-Loetz-Octopus-Vase-in-Great-Condition-1885-88-/300869309786

Unfortunately the link will disappear in time but hopefully this will remain as a reference.
I'll keep searching for a shape match :)

m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on January 01, 2014, 06:31:24 PM
see my most recent post above and
Just to add, unless I'm missing something and it's quite possible, I've been through Truitt's Bohemian Glass 1880-1940 and there is no piece in there in this Marmoriertes/Karneol/Onyx under Harrach.
And neither is there a piece in the Harrach From Neuwelt to the Whole World book.  I'm a bit mystified.  If Truitt's photographed pieces from the Harrach museum/depository and there are none in the book, and the actual Harrach book doesn't contain any pieces either why would that be?

If I've missed one and anyone has the books to check, please do let me know.

m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on March 18, 2014, 01:32:04 AM
Sorry no match yet for the shape for either Harrach or Loetz, but I just wanted to add a Loetz vase that is marked with numbers
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/69054-loetz-medici-with-vienna-secession-silve

m
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: azelismia on March 18, 2014, 08:13:35 AM
that marking is specific to pieces with silver overlay from that company. it's the silver overlay makers markings not loetz markings. the way this is marked is typical of Harrach. I am 100 percent sure of this. I have so many Harrach pieces marked with P.xxx and i have seen so many more marked this way.

If this is loetz I'll eat my hat :)
Title: Re: Red marbled vase with enamel, Loetz Marmoriertes Carneol? or Harrach? other?
Post by: flying free on March 18, 2014, 10:34:13 AM
It would be really helpful if I could find Harrach pattern number 688 or 588 to check.
Presumably the pattern numbers for this period do exist so maybe one day it will surface.

What I am most surprised by is that I can find no marmoriertes in the Harrach(From Neuwelt to the Whole World, 2012) book , or the Truitt's book (1880-1940 , 1995) to compare to, despite the Truitt's book containing a double page spread of Loetz marmoriertes vases.

Unfortunately, Brian hasn't returned to the thread with any comment from his visit to Harrach of two years ago  and the two vases you very kindly showed from your pictures don't match mine in shape or colour.
I'll continue to keep looking and post if I find any matches.

edited to add:
Just thought I'd add some other links from CW  that show the variations, so others who don't have the books can see some examples:

1)This pair have been id as Loetz Malachite and have white decoration on the rim that reminds me of mine, it looks as though it has gilt outlines to the white as though the white might have originally been gilded and mine has this as well:
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/103406-pair-of-malachite-loetz-marmoriertes

2) In the right hand picture on this thread, the vase on the very left with the large collar decoration has white enamelling flower and leaf design that is remarkably similar to mine.  Is that identified as a Harrach vase?
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/100197-loetz-carneol--all-shapes-and-sizes

3)  http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/64732-marmoriertes-glass--loetz-and-others
from CW a group of Loetz pieces on the left, Loetz in the middle 2 and on the right a group of Harrach pieces.  However there seems to be a post at the bottom of that thread where the poster Steve says
'Hi Warren
Have the middle piece in photo 4 (pink/blue/brown with ? Hellenic key) with one of the characteristic Islamic Loetz finishes (IV/103 I think) ... and I also think there is one amidst the Carneols in Passau ...
Cheers'

Is that one in question? or do I not understand the posters point and to what he is referring, which is entirely possible?

4)  http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/63604-loetz-marmoriertes-vase-carneol-ca
A Loetz Carneol vase with minimal decoration around the neck

5)  http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/90703-harrach-marmoriertes-karneol-vase
This one has a polished pontil mark




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