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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on December 30, 2011, 07:53:22 PM

Title: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on December 30, 2011, 07:53:22 PM
Like 'Kenilworth', this design was applied to a variety of pieces (including decanters), and appears to have been offered in pink, green and blue overlay/cased wares, and although I'm biased (I don't have any coloured examples), I think wheel engraving usually looks best on clear glass.       Colours seem to mask the more delicate nature of wheel engraving.       Although not from a charity shop, these were unusually inexpensive, and were my best buy before the Christmas break - one is marked Walsh England, and one is entirely without any backstamp.     So, forgive the egotism, and hope any Walsh fans might like to see these :)
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: keith on December 31, 2011, 01:03:21 AM
Very nice Paul :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: must add to my small Walsh collection in the new year ;D
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on January 02, 2012, 07:43:37 PM
thanks Keith - so that makes two of us wot collects Walsh.     Should mean that values remain depressed, and we can look forward to a year of finding these things at give away prices ;)        Fingers crossed we find some of the coloured examples, but I would say that some of these backstamps are very feint and difficult to see, and a long hard look is worthwhile.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: keith on January 02, 2012, 09:13:04 PM
Hello Paul,not seen much recently,apart from a small damaged epergne, the dealer wanted £25 and wouldn't let it go for less despite the enormous crack down one side :o,I've only one coloured piece,a small 'Kenilworth' vase in blue and clear,good hunting for the new year ;D
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Lustrousstone on January 03, 2012, 07:35:06 AM
Well I'm having the uranium Walsh, so paws off boys LOL
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on January 03, 2012, 11:52:44 AM
Hi

Thanks to your post which has helped in the ID of this finger bowl. I not sure where I got it from, 

Roy
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on January 03, 2012, 12:19:02 PM
My wife bought these from a charity shop a couple of years ago . I do not know who made them but never thought that they were Walsh, she bought 6 but dropped one while opening the front door , but still have 5 Left which we still use occasionally

Roy
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 03, 2012, 12:46:12 PM
 :-[

The next Uranium one I find is yours, Christine. Believe it or not, there was somebody we know who needed it even more than you did.  :usd:
It's marked Walsh on the base.
I have a strong preference for engraving being on coloured glass rather than clear - I think it makes the design stand out far better when there are different depths of colour delineating it. I feel that on clear glass it often just mushes together, (often into death by a thousand cuts..... :ho: )
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on January 03, 2012, 01:11:41 PM
Roy -  nice hock/wine glasses - pity you now have only five.    Must admit I didn't know it was possible to open a front door whilst holding six glasses ;)
I might suggest a little caution before attributing your examples to Walsh.         The world is full of glass objects which have been decorated with grapes, leafing vines, tendrils etc., and I was able to confirm the provenance of mine because of the backstamp and the illustrations in Reynold book, and whilst Walsh did produce some stunning hock style glasses  in cased/cut designs (Harlequin), I am unble to see your plain engraved bowl pattern in the book.        One of the characteristics of Walsh's 'Fruiting Vine' engraving, is the pale central area of the leaf, which I don't see in your tall glasses  -  but can see in your finger bowl.     This pale area within the leaf shows quite clearly in the illustrations in the book.         I would also venture to suggest that the stems on your glasses are uranium - have you tested with the torch?
Your finger bowl is a strong contender for Walsh - these objects were probably not used after the second war - and although I don't see this particular piece in the main illustrations of Reynolds, it may well be included in the hundreds of patterns at the back of the book, which I haven't yet checked.      Assume you really have looked very carefully for a backstamp  -  they can be the devil to find, sometimes.

Sue, I really like your u. 'Fruiting Vine' glass :mrgreen: :mrgreen:  -  such a pity you have parted with it  -  but I will continue to disagree with you re the best type of glass for wheel engraving  -  I still think it looks best on clear :)     
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on January 03, 2012, 01:15:31 PM
sorry, meant to ask Sue  -  when are you getting a camera that can take good pics. ;)  -  also there is an example of your glass, in Reynolds, with a blue bowl, but I prefer your one :)
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 03, 2012, 01:22:45 PM
Ok Paul, I don't mind if you disagree with me. Apart from my Alison Kinnaird lantern which I adore (and is on clear glass) I'm an absolute philistine about scratches made on a cold glass surface.  :smg:

Hmmm, then there's my Chris Ainslie plate, and my little milk jug engraved with a bee bumping into a dandelion seed head, a WFs vase with a big fish on one side and a shoal of little fish on the other - and some sets of wine glasses... No, I still don't collect the stuff. Those doesn't really count. I'm really a complete philistine about it.  :pb:
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 03, 2012, 01:24:35 PM
I don't know what's going on with the camera, Paul. It might be me.  :spls:
I can't see money being spent on a new one though!
As to the glass I had, it's with a friend who considers it to be one of the things he adores most out of all his glass, so it's where it belongs. What a friend has is never lost.  :kissy:

What's Reynolds?

 :hj: A bit off topic, sorry, but you wouldn't happen to know off-hand what the correct distances from the object the camera should be for the different focal settings?
Flower + s is approximately 12", but I can't work out what the distances are for flower alone, for the single head, for the two heads or for the mountains.

Then it would appear I can't use the shaky hand correction setting with anything other than flower and flower + s.

And my hands shake when I try to hold them still (my muscles don't work properly) and I can't focus on the image in the small screeny thing at all. (I'm very long-sighted - my eyeballs have elongated so much with age that I now have about 5-8 different focal points in each eye - all of them falling considerably short of my retinas.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on January 03, 2012, 02:38:38 PM
I apologise for being flippant Sue - had overlooked your difficulties (which I should have remembered) :-[.    As for tips on taking pics. - I am the least knowledgable, and probably succeed only because my 'brownie' is quite a good piece of kit.      All I do is turn the knob to macro, and press the sutter button.       Perhaps someone else with vastly more experience might give Sue some guidance please.
Reynold's is my shorthand for the book in question.......which is  -  'The Glass of John Walsh Walsh 1850 - 1951' by Eric Reynolds  -  pub. 1999, and essential for anyone who wishes to collect Walsh glass seriously.
P.S.   if ever you should get this piece of glass back............... ;D
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 03, 2012, 02:51:42 PM
It's Christine's if it ever leaves the person who has it Paul, sorry. All pre-arranged!  :ooh:

And I do try to appear "normal" despite my difficulties - so my tactics are obviously working - thanks for the reassurance!   :24:
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: johnphilip on January 04, 2012, 09:36:39 AM
 :hi:  Hi Guys a couple of months back i listed a Walsh Kenilworth decanter and six glasses for very little money on ebay , not one bid!!!
i have got several different sets all with  decanters and matching glasses but havnt bothered to list them , i sold the big vaseline vase shown  on the front cover of Erics book at the auction at Bourne end , it didnt go as high as expected , but thats how things are at the moment . Somewhere i have got the DVD that Eric made and sold for charity if i can find it i will check it out as i didnt have a player when Eric sent me it . i also have at least three of grapes and vine glasses , all different . I did sell 4 beautiful cut whisky glasses... a committee member of the glass association bought them they were fabulous , he was over the moon with them . Good taste .
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Frank on January 04, 2012, 12:45:40 PM
Get a tripod Sue, one of the small tabletop ones would probably do for close-up jobs... no more shakes then.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 04, 2012, 01:17:22 PM
 :-[
I've got one. I just forgot I have it.  :ooh:
But I still haven't a clue how far to have the camera from an object (or objects) for the different settings beyond flower + s. It's why I've not been able to put much in on the "show your displays" threads!
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Carolyn Preston on January 05, 2012, 12:52:05 AM
If the camera is digital, I would simply take several pictures at various distances and choose the best one Sue. But what I have the worst time remembering is that if you have it on micro, then you can't adjust the zoom lens. Just move the camera (on or off the tripod) closer or further away. But again, if it is digital all you are wasting are shutter clicks and as long as your fingers hold out, you have an infinite number of them.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Lustrousstone on January 05, 2012, 07:40:09 AM
Sue's camera will zoom on macro Carolyn. I've read the manual. Some will some won't.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 05, 2012, 11:28:39 AM
 :-[
It sounds like I'm making loads of excuses, but I've got serious short-term memory problems - I've just got myself in horrible tangles trying to remember which setting and how far I am away for each pic which doesn't turn out!

For example, trying to take a pic of my shelves. The shelves occupy most of the wall in the sitting room, and I can get about 12' away from them.

Should I be using the flower, the head, the double head or the mountains? I've tried them all and got nowhere!

I only need an approximate range, then I can fiddle with finding the exact distance - otherwise I'm going to need to fiddle between 8" and 80' on each setting - and the even thought of that is just too much to bear, it would be a lot of work and lots of up and down stuff - and I need all my up and down stuff abilities to get the washing hung up and the dishwasher emptied. I ain't got any to spare!
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Lustrousstone on January 05, 2012, 12:21:57 PM
Do you have to choose the distance? Is there not an auto focus setting for everything except macro and super macro? For your shelves, the double head. Think of K and I standing in front of them. Email me your camera model number again please  :kissy:
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 05, 2012, 01:14:45 PM
There's a p-auto setting, whatever that is. :pb:
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on January 05, 2012, 08:43:45 PM
Paul

Thanks to your reply I can see the centre of the leaf is paler and will remember that for future reference, until I saw your glass I was not sure of the maker. The finger bowl is kept in my everyday cupboard and was used for cream on Christmas day.

The hock glasses are uranium and it was unfortunate that one was dropped between getting out of a taxi and the front door, I have never known the maker but always thought they may be mainland Europe. I do keep looking for a replacement but not really hopefull as you say similar glasses were made by many companies in many countries

Roy
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on February 29, 2012, 03:20:07 PM
Paul, could you do me a favour please if you still have these glasses?  Could you look at the ring that is part way up the stem and tell me if it is a 'knop' that the bowl of the glass is joined to the stem with, or is it literally an applied ring of glass around the piece.
Looking at Sue's version, the colour of the bowl goes down under the ring, so I'm hoping it's an applied ring rather than a 'blob' knop that joins the bowl with the stem if you see what I mean?
many thanks
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 29, 2012, 03:31:36 PM
I think the colour going down is an optical effect, not reality. (from memory)
Paradisetrader owns it, m.  ;)
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on February 29, 2012, 03:55:01 PM
Thanks Sue, yes you're right and I'm an idiot ;) It shows that in the book and also looking at my iridescent vase it isn't an applied ring at all. It's a blob of glass that the bowl is kind of squished into if you see what I mean.  So the blob comes slightly up the sides of the bowl as though someone balanced it on top of the knop then thought ' I know, I'll just push it down a bit to make sure it's secure'  ;D
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 29, 2012, 04:09:00 PM
Here's a pic which might show it better.
And another pic, which is looking down into the bowl and showing off the effects of the cutting, just because I've found it and its pretty.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on February 29, 2012, 09:23:58 PM
hello m  -  and your later comments are correct  -  this component at the base of the bowl is certainly not applied.    I'm definitely no expert of the construction of drinking glasses, but I believe that Walsh used the traditional method of making these glasses  i.e.  in three parts.....bowl.....stem....foot, and it appears that your 'blob/knop' is constructed as an integral part of the stem.           Oddly, the construction of these particular glasses presents a possible anomaly when it comes to describing this component which, although rather academic, I'm sure could spill a lot of ink.
As we know, these decorative additions on stems are described, usually, as knops.          Historically that decorative swelling that joined the bowl to the stem was called 'nodus' in Latin, but in Britain we took the Dutch spelling of 'knoop' or 'knop'  -  however, with the passing of time it appears that it became standard practise to use 'knop' only when this decorative swelling is specifically part of the stem, and lower than the junction of bowl and stem.     It also became the norm to describe those swellings/components that occur at the junction of the body and stem as a collar or merese (used originally to hide or mask the (perhaps) crude joint).
And the point of all this ............because with these Walsh glasses the 'ring' occurs at the very base of the bowl - where it joins the stem.
So, Peter, what would you call it  -  a bladed knop, or merese/collar :)
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 12:52:54 AM
Paul thank you for looking for me and the extra information.  My vase is in three parts, foot, knop, bowl.  There is no stem.    The bowl is pushed down into the knop so the knop appears to raise up the sides of the bowl and the knop is shaped like a diabolo, so it has a mirror image bit that flattens over the foot slightly if you see what I mean.
I'll add a more descriptive photo on my thread about the vase showing this more clearly.  I was wondering if the knop on your glass is the same basically as that description of my vase? ie the bowl of the glass is pushed down into the knop?
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on March 01, 2012, 09:08:29 AM
confused of Surrey (UK) writes..............."sorry m, I've rather lost the plot on whatever other item it is that you are cross referencing to ("an iridescent vase???) - you haven't included a link as far as I can see, and being a smimple cuntry ladd I am now a bit lost" :)
However, I can confirm your assumption re the method of connecting bowl and stem on my 'Fruiting Vine' glasses, and it does certainly appear that the pointy bottom of the bowl is inserted into a small cavity of sorts - formed as a depression in the collar/merese at the top of the stem.     As we said earlier, I guess it just allows for a little neatness in that paticular area of construction.
Going to Kew now for a rest :24:
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 09:16:12 AM
are you going to Kew really?  Here is a photo of the iridescent vase I'm talking about - I put it on the main thread about Webb's iridescent.
Thanks for looking and replying Paul.
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 10:42:06 AM
Here's a set of blue overlay fruiting vine and the blue also appears to be below the knop - it may well be an optical illusion, but I'm not sure... unfortunately the photo isn't close enough to that part of the stem to see clearly.  I just thought I'd put the link here for reference.
https://www.richardhoppe.co.uk/item.php?id=1128
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 01, 2012, 12:16:36 PM
Looks to me like the knop on the glasses is decorative and that yours is a joining knop made into a decorative feature. I'm not sure you can compare the two constructions when one doesn't have a stem. I also think glasses may assembled by a team rather than by the main blower (but that could be nonsense).
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 01:09:21 PM
Christine I think that is an illusion though which is why I was questioning Paul  and Paul said
'However, I can confirm your assumption re the method of connecting bowl and stem on my 'Fruiting Vine' glasses, and it does certainly appear that the pointy bottom of the bowl is inserted into a small cavity of sorts - formed as a depression in the collar/merese at the top of the stem. '
so it isn't a decorative thing on the glass it is a method of joining the bowl to the stem... I think :-\
What I  suppose I'm interested in, is that possibly this is a named or particular method of attaching bowls to stems, but that it isn't often used by many makers and Walsh Walsh appears to be one of the makers who did use this.
always the possibility I'm barking up the wrong tree of course  ;D
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 01, 2012, 01:28:12 PM
The bicolour ones look like drawn stems to me.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 01:42:57 PM
But would that be the case on Sue's stem? i.e. could it be a drawn stem on Sue's goblet then where the bowl is full uranium glass with a clear stem?  It is full uranium cut, rather than clear cased in uranium yellow and then cut to clear as far as I can see.
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 01, 2012, 02:18:16 PM
This has no knop or collar http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1252
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 02:29:48 PM
It's possibly my lack of understanding of glassmaking techniques, but I cannot get my head around how you could draw a clear stem from a bowl that has been blown from a uranium glass gather.  Would you not have to, in some way, apply a clear blob to draw/apply a clear stem?
Sorry for all the questions  :-[
I was also going on Paul's comments earlier that he thought the glasses had been made in three parts, bowl, stem and foot.
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on March 01, 2012, 03:06:00 PM
The down side of writing excessively, is that you always get beaten to the 'post' by someone else.

Christine's green tinted glass is a two piece example, presumably, with bowl and stem as one, and the foot as the other.

m's comment quote........  "but I cannot get my head around how you could draw a clear stem from a bowl that has been blown from a uranium glass gather.  Would you not have to, in some way, apply a clear blob to draw/apply a clear stem?"   .........is rational and proves the point that the Walsh examples are almost certainly three part glasses.

I will leave my scribblings unchanged, and this was what I had intended to post...............

"yes I did go, and pleased to say I have a positive result and will post later this afternoon (I'm fortunate - I can get there in about 40 minutes).

We may be heading towards a non-result on this matter of the knop/collar business, as most probably the clever people who might know the answer are unable to handle the pieces in question.
According to Wilkinson, older drinking glasses were indeed made by a team......i.e. 'servitor'  -  'bit gatherer' and finally the 'maker'.        This author describes no less than thirteen separate operations, and that was for a simple wine glass (without any knops/collars)   -     Wilkinson is a good read if you want some detailed descriptions of manufacturing processes.     So Lustrousstone would seem to have been correct when speaking of a team.

I could be completely wrong, but had this notion that a drawn trumpet could only be described as such provided there was a continuously smooth (without knops or collars) surface between rim and bottom of stem.
The difficulty, possibly, with these 'Fruiting Vine' glasses concerns the positioning of the knop/collar.       If you look at most drinking glasses that possess these decorative components, it is far more common to find such swellings, not at the extreme ends of the stem, but rather at some point along it.    With vey rare exceptions (Newcastle Light Balusters) these swellings are formed as an integral part of the stem - presumably by twisting/contracting etc., coupled with use of tools.         But the fact that on said glasses the component is bang under the bowl, confuses the issue, although in my ignorance it appears to me that because of the almost split seam between the bowl and the stem, then that implies a join.

Having said all of that, I've never seen a glass being made and can't find a decent book description of manufacture, so finito.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 03:24:24 PM
Paul thanks
I think there are lots of examples where the knop/merese sits under the bowl  :-\
I have antique glasses that have a knop/merese of some sort under the bowl where the bowl joins the stem.
There are also a number of examples of this in Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass pages 48 and 49 for example.  My query is twofold
1) over the way the knop/merese is applied and shaped and how the bowl is squashed into the knop/merese
2) that I thought the Walsh Walsh fruiting vine goblets being discussed here are made in 3 parts with a bowl, stem and foot - and utilise the knop/merese in the way I have described above with the bowl being squashed down into the knop/merese.

I'm glad Kew was successful - do they do a telephone or email order service for checking reg numbers do you know at all please?
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 01, 2012, 04:04:35 PM
They still use a team to make glasses at Dartington, though some of it uses a computer-controlled machine (stem drawing I think).

You can't squash the bowl onto anything because you would squash its shape. The merese/knop is gently applied like a blob of glue (which is what it effectively is) to stick the stem on and then another may used to stick the foot on (both these are preformed). In pressed glass, the sticking-on bit is called a wafer. A drawn stem would explain the point in the base of the bowl. A skilled worker should be able to attach a gob for the stem, work it in so as to be invisible and then pull the stem, which would also pull on the bowl. A decorative knop could be applied afterwards. That's my thoughts any way.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 04:06:14 PM
Thanks so much for the explanation  :)
I've been doing some investigating and  I think my example on the iridescent vase may be a very very short capstan stem?
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 04:10:52 PM
http://www.rubylane.com/item/287127-RL467x2ea1252/Anglo-Irish-Hand-Blown-Flint
this is apparently a capstan stem
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 01, 2012, 04:38:51 PM
I think you're trying to make things too complicated. The foot and the bottom knoppy bit on your vase are from a three-part mould. I think there is a thin wafer between the foot plus knop and the knop on the bottom of the main vase; the top knop being purely decorative and applied after the vase has been blown to its basic shape. I'm not sure you can compare 18th century techniques with 20th century ones quite so directly.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 04:48:51 PM
 ;D  I'm desperate to show someone the vase - are you going to the National at all?
It probably is my misunderstanding, but I honestly don't think it is as you describe.  The knop is a diabolo shape, it is squeezed in in the middle but there is no separate wafer there, the knop is all one piece of glass with the top flared bit of it surrounding the bottom of the stem of the vase and the bottom flared bit of the knop immersed slightly into the top of the foot.
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 01, 2012, 04:54:25 PM
Yes I am. Look at your photos. You can see the mould seams on the bottom bit of the knop
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on March 01, 2012, 05:06:14 PM
beaten again......huh. :cry:

certainly is.......if you imagine a fishing reel profile...two flanges joined by a 'U' shape, so to speak.         But I can't see the holes into which the sailors would place the wooden braces :24:
m  -  you need some more books - but there does seem to be a missing link i.e. something that does give very good descriptions of manufacturing processes.

TNA do offer a professional search service, I believe, but expensive as far as I'm aware.         For most of the info I need it's regrettably not possibly to run down to an individual item on the pc screen  -  it does require a personal visit - for the simple reason that there is an almost infinite amount of data in their possession, and impossible to put every word on the screen.   In order to use their facilities, it's necessary to register in person in order to recieve a Reader's Ticket - and they do require a lot of info, from memory.
I could look for you when next I visit  -  I would need to see an image of the piece, if possible  -  and of course, the Rd. No., you might have to wait 4 - 6 weeks until I'm in need of going again.
However, it's only necessary, usually, to visit, if there is a substantial query  i.e. the No. is missing from Thompson and/or the Blue Book.      Due you have either of these?    Neither is expensive, and if pressed glass is collected then it's really essential to have both.   
Raymond Slack's book does carry all Nos. from their inception to the end of the Victorian period, but his book is not cheap, and doesn't cover the C20 anyway.      Lattimore is less useful for the Rd. Nos., but does have something the others seem to have overlooked (I think).....which is a list of glass patents registered by the major glasshouses in the north east of England.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 05:31:26 PM
Christine thank you so much for trying to help and I am so sorry for appearing to be dense  :-[ but I cannot see where you can see mould seams.  When you say a three part mould I don't know what you can see that makes you say that?  is it the three 'apparent' lines radiating out over the top of the foot from the knop in my photo?  if so these are unfortunate reflections from something, I know not what, but there are definitely no mould lines on the foot of this piece that I can see.  I'm sure you are probably right but I just can't see what you are describing... sorry  :-[
Hopefully I'll get to the National as planned and be able to bring it and a couple of other pieces with me.

Paul, thank you for all the info much appreciated.  I have so many books but none ever have the particular  bit of information in that I want - funny thing that  ;D

I was asking as it is for a piece of, what appears to be, quite obscure blown glass with a hand engraved reg number on it - it isn't on the great glass reg numbers list but I believe from the number, it dates to 1903.  I'll post that on a separate topic.  Thanks again for your offer but unless it would be a very simple thing to do and really not take up time, then I'll contact them directly.
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on March 01, 2012, 07:13:18 PM
quote from m.............."then I'll contact them directly".............can only wish you luck. :)
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 07:20:39 PM
 :-\ is that not possible?
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on March 01, 2012, 07:28:41 PM
Well, please do speak to them, and let us know how you get on.     Their phone No. is 0208 876 3444.        A hand engraved Rd. No. sounds unusual.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 07:35:55 PM
Have I said something wrong  :-X
I just wouldn't want to put you to any trouble - and I know from experience, that a quick little favour usually turns  into some enormous great big long job, so  that sometimes one wishes one hadn't offered  :)
thank you for the phone number
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on March 01, 2012, 09:13:49 PM
I only said I'd show you a good time ;)   Give them a call and we await the outcome, and I'm sure we can help in some way.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: paradisetrader on March 01, 2012, 09:49:00 PM
flying free ....the colour of the bowl goes down under the ring
Yes it does. I have looked sideways. It's not an optical illusion.

flying free I'm hoping it's an applied ring rather than a 'blob' knop that joins the bowl with the stem if you see what I mean?
I have looked very closely, with a jewellers loupe and it does indeed appear that it is an applied ring on top of the body rather than a joining wafer / collar/ merese. IMHO This makes it all the more impressive as there does not appear to have been a practical need for it.

flying free, your observations and questions have brought forth some interesting information, however, like others, I am confused as to the use you wish to make of this information. A link to your bowl topic would be more appropriate than extended discussion about it here. Please provide one. Thanks.

PS What appear to be mould lines on your bowl, I think are actually reflections of the grouting lines of your tiles.
PPS You and Lustroustone are actually agreeing with each other at various points in the discussion. Please try to see that. Thanks
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 01, 2012, 10:12:46 PM
Pete thank you for your info on the goblet which is appreciated.
The link to this discussion and the other piece of glass is here
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46010.0.html

The reason for the discussion is that I am trying to work out whether or not Walsh Walsh made my iridescent vase in the the topic linked to.  There are some similarities between my vase and some Walsh Walsh pieces, including this goblet, which I wanted to explore.

The similarities to the goblet on this thread are
- The way the bowl of the goblet is positioned on the stem
and the use of the knop device which 'appears to be' just above where the bowl ends, which at the time of me asking the original questions, seemed to me to be a similar device as to that on my vase.

I'm not sure whether I misunderstand your PPS final comment or not - I feel as though I have been told off for not understanding or appreciating the information being given.  If that is the way I came across I apologise, as I am very grateful that Christine has taken so much time to try and examine this and explain things.  It's just that I haven't been able to 'see' what is being explained and I'm sure that is  my lack of understanding of glassmaking processes that has hindered this - as well as the difficulty in trying to describe something which I have in front of me, always difficult when one person has the object and the other person doesn't.  I really do appreciate the help and information/observations being given, very much so.
Thank you again
m
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: chopin-liszt on March 02, 2012, 10:50:58 AM
I am absolutely positive nobody is giving anybody any "tellings off",  I think it's just the difficulties of discussing such stuff in writing!

This sort of conversation would be best held with all of us together with the pieces in our sticky mitts and the advantage of our smiles and body language and pointing.  :ghug:
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 02, 2012, 12:13:51 PM
OK, to put my mind at rest can we have a foot photo or two on plain white paper with definitely no grout!  ;)
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 02, 2012, 12:37:13 PM
coming up :)
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 02, 2012, 01:59:40 PM
urggh, sorry it is incredibly difficult to photograph because of reflections from everything as it is so highly iridescent.
These are the best I can do - I hope they are ok.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Lustrousstone on March 02, 2012, 02:07:35 PM
OK, no mould marks
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: flying free on March 02, 2012, 02:15:22 PM
Excellent  ;D
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: bOBA on July 08, 2013, 04:11:31 PM
Hi all,

I am wondering if anyone may confirm this pattern as perhaps Walsh Fruiting Vine? The stopper is hollow. I cannot find the (famously elusive) acid etch mark for Walsh, but the fruiting vines look a lot like some shown on this thread? I have a copy of the Walsh book which is great but this pattern does not seem to be there.... maybe it isn't Walsh...... I am thinking circa 1860 English. Any information would be welcome......

Robert

Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on July 08, 2013, 07:21:33 PM
I'd agree it looks similar, but would say no based on the fact that I have both finger bowls and drinking glasses in the 'Fruiting Vine' pattern, and they all have the distinctive pale centres to the leaves  -  from memory think this was discussed someway back in this thread, and can be seen in the original pix. on this thread.                This feature may well be peculiar to Walsh, although can't guarantee that comment :)           The finger bowls and glasses are all marked 'Walsh England' - although as you say, on some the backstamp in very elusive.
As a decorative feature, there must have been hundreds of different hands producing this grape and leaf pattern, and I suppose many are going to look very similar.

I can't imagine that Walsh's Fruiting Vine pattern was as old as c. 1860 ??           Are there any matching Nos. on the neck and/or stopper, which might make you think English.         Otherwise it might equally be Continental.
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: bOBA on July 08, 2013, 09:39:44 PM
Thank you for the reply Paul, I am pleased someone very familiar with some Walsh examples has commented. I now see what you mean now about the vine leaves on Walsh having a fade in the leaf, making a distinction. As you say, many companies produced this popular style over many years. I did buy it in Stourbridge. I have bought other Walsh items with the acid etch mark in Stourbridge. This decanter may have come from much further afield than Birmingham, as you suggest may be the case....  No stopper marks etc. I was throwing a guess at English 1860. I think this attribution could be very tricky! Thank you for the reply, it is much appreciated. It pretty much leaves Walsh out of the running, which is OK, one less company to worry about I suppose and adds to the Walsh thread in a useful way too!

Robert
Title: Re: Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' pattern.
Post by: Paul S. on July 09, 2013, 08:40:48 AM
just had a look in Reynolds book, and certainly all of the pieces of this pattern that he shows do have the central pale area to the leaves, so it does seem to be a Walsh feature that is constant in 'Fruiting Vine'.

Blown stoppers have been around for a very long time, and the shaft and globe shape doesn't help to date the piece, unfortunately.      However, it may be that the lack of deep mitres and profusion of shallow wheel cutting might point to a more recent date than you are suggesting, but I'm really only guessing.

Decanters are so commonplace, and produced with such a profusion of copied earlier styles, that without a name or very well known pattern, they nearly always prove impossible to attribute.
You don't comment on the extent (or lack) of wear  -  and although not a reliable method of assessing age, it might suggest either C19 or perhaps C20, and a base picture might help to suggest whether of some quality or not............ i.e. is there a quality cut star, or simply a plain bottom.
But as I say, I've a feeling you're onto a hiding to nothing with this one, unfortunately, so fill it with a good dry sherry and drink away :)