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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Trinket Sets => Topic started by: Jayne on June 08, 2012, 11:09:49 AM

Title: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Jayne on June 08, 2012, 11:09:49 AM
I noticed this Ebay listing some time ago, (4th May 2012)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250898624005&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123

and messaged the seller that I believed it was Bagley "Ilkley" not including the perfume bottle.

http://www.glasstrinketsets.com/cms15/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18&Itemid=63

The seller responded that this set was also produced in Denmark in the 1960's, and that is why it's seen with additional items.

I've now noticed some trinket pots for sale with the same seller, much discussed on this board as possible Libochovice 1700 or Walther Prismen, also listed as Danish,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-VINTAGE-DANISH-RETRO-JEWELLERY-GREEN-GLASS-TRINKET-JARS-1960-CIRCA-/250894402912?pt=UK_Collectables_Fragrances_EH&hash=item3a6a78c560

Lastly the Brockwitz items discussed in September 2011 here

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,43097.msg240132.html#msg240132

are still for sale as Danish.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DANISH-VINTAGE-ART-DECO-DRESSING-TABLE-JEWELLERY-SET-/390348021476?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item5ae28e1ee4

Does anyone have any thoughts?
Title: Re: Bagley Ilkley trinket set, produced in Denmark 1960's?
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 08, 2012, 11:22:35 AM
Nothing polite. Knottingley was primarily a bottle works, so there is no reason why Ilkley for the Danish market couldn't have had a perfume bottle. They bought it in Denmark, ergo it's Danish
Title: Re: Bagley Ilkley trinket set, produced in Denmark 1960's?
Post by: Paul S. on June 08, 2012, 05:58:46 PM
I rather like the almost poetic description of........'Danish Dusty Green'.          Jayne - you should have asked the seller to clarify which Danish factory  -  or why they considered it was made in that country  -  however, doubtless water off a duck's back I expect.
Title: Re: Bagley Ilkley trinket set, produced in Denmark 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 08, 2012, 09:06:04 PM
I wonder if Angela Bowey has come across the blue flask before? I've dropped her a note to ask. The pattern on it seems to be a good match for the Ilkley set for sure, but there's no mention of an Ilkley flask / decanter /perfume bottle etc... in the Bagley books.

I also wonder what the source of their made in Denmark in the 1960's is? Is it something we've missed or a leap of faith? I'm agreeing with Christine, that none of these appear Danish.

Seller doesn't appear to be a member of the GMB, unless it's under a different name/email than the eBay one.
Title: Re: Bagley Ilkley trinket set, produced in Denmark 1960's?
Post by: Jayne on June 08, 2012, 11:29:00 PM
Well Paul I'm no expert so I didn't want to push too much, but if anyone else wishes to then be my guest! Anne's site says Ilkley was made until the late 1950's so the 1965 date fits. I felt it best to bring to the attention of you guys who know so much more than me of these things. :D Hopefully Angela will be able to give Anne an answer re the Ilkley. :)
Title: Re: Bagley Ilkley trinket set, produced in Denmark 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 10, 2012, 08:40:10 PM
My info re dates came from Angela's Bagley book. :)

I emailed Ang and asked her to take a looksee at the Ilkley listing, her reply is that she's never seen the like before in connection with Ilkley. She says, "Certainly the Bagley adverts and catalogues did not include any kind of a bottle - only candlesticks in two sizes, pots with flat lids in two sizes, the tray and a ring holder. " She wondered if it could be a Davidson bottle, but again I've never seen it with any of the Davidson sets. Perhaps Chris Stewart can confirm or otherwise.

What bugs me intensely is that the colour is a good match with the rest of the set and that the bottle has lines round it like the Ilkley set does, so it looks as if it ought to match...  more digging needed!  I've emailed the seller asking if they have better pics of the bottle - that might help answer the question.
Title: Re: Bagley Ilkley trinket set, produced in Denmark 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 11, 2012, 11:09:30 AM
I've had a lovely reply back from the seller, affirming again that he believes these were copied in Denmark in the 1960s and the bottle added to the set at that time, something we aren't aware of. Does anyone know if there was there a glassworks in Denmark capable of doing this at the time?  I've no examples of trinket sets made in Denmark at all, and the only Danish glassmaker I know of is Holmegaard and if it was them then I'm sure this would be public knowledge. Who else was making pressed glass in Denmark in the 1960s?  Were the Bagley moulds sold on to another firm over there?  The seller has also promised to send me better pics of the set and the bottle after Friday this week, so I'll add more when I get those, if not before! :)
Title: Re: Bagley Ilkley trinket set, produced in Denmark 1960's?
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 11, 2012, 11:28:21 AM
I would poke Nic, as this is not the sort of thread he would look at
Title: Re: Bagley Ilkley trinket set, produced in Denmark 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 11, 2012, 11:58:33 AM
Good thinking Christine, thanks! :)

Meanwhile, I've been searching for more and found one of Angela's glass newsletters from April 2005 with comments about Bagley repro's and moulds: http://www.glassnewsletter.com/050413news.html which I'll reproduce here for completeness...

Quote
Reproduction Bagley Glass
As you probably know, I have a special interest in Bagley Glass, made at The Crystal Glass Company in Knottingley, UK. Di wrote to me recently from Australia saying that in Australia "you can't turn around without tripping over a rose and leaf or equinox or the like... Bagley must have produced half the world's glass!" And the same is true of New Zealand, nearly half the glass in any second-hand shop or charity outlet that you look in turns out to be Bagley. It is so common that it surprised me to find there are companies which have reproduced Bagley glass. The equinox vase itself, which is a very common item, was reproduced by Crown Crystal Glass in Australia, and if you come across an equinox vase with stippling on alternate ribs, that is an Australian reproduction, not Bagley.

Even more fascinating are the Sarsaparilla reproductions of Bagley clocks. Both the Wyndham pattern 1333 clock and the Grantham pattern 334 clock are reproduced and offered by the USA company Sarsaparilla as "Masterpieces from the Past". I bought a Grantham one in pink glass to compare it to a Bagley one. They claim to be using original molds and making these items in the USA, and apart from the clock itself (which is round instead of square and battery instead of clockwork) they are very hard to tell apart. Fortunately the Sarsaparilla ones have the company name on the base, and mine also has the date.

You can read more about Bagley Glass in our book, available on-line at: http://www.glass-time.com/orderbagleyglassbook.html.

So, there is evidence of Bagley designs being reproduced elsewhere, so why not Denmark too? The hunt continues... 

Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Pinkspoons on June 11, 2012, 02:26:09 PM
Thanks for the prod, Anne.  :)

Kastrup and Holmegaard were certainly capable of producing these kinds of wares well into the 1970s, but whether they did or not is questionable.

None of it, at least, rings any bells from the K-HG catalogues I have, and pretty much all other glassworks had folded or been absorbed by this point. Plus I think most items of this style had been dropped by Danish manufacturers in the 1940s/50s.

Never say never, but it's very unlikely.
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 11, 2012, 04:47:28 PM
Thanks for popping in Nic, and for your thoughts on the practicalities which help considerably. 

What I find a puzzle is why would a Danish glassworks choose to reproduce a design from the 1930s, when stylistically, it was so far out of synch with other 1960s production? We know what was around in the 1960s, and it was almost as far removed from Ilkley as can be imagined, even more so in Scandinavia than in the UK, so it's a real mystery.

Do we know if there were there any other pressed glassworks in Denmark in the 1960s?
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 11, 2012, 06:08:34 PM
Another wee snippet that adds to the picture: Angela states, in Bagley Glass, that The Crystal Glass Company closed around 1975 and that the remaining moulds were sold to a company in Wath upon Dearne, who continued using them. Some moulds had earlier been sold on to companies in Czechoslovakia and Poland.
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Jayne on June 14, 2012, 11:36:17 AM
Nice work Anne, the plot thickens! :D
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 14, 2012, 01:35:59 PM
I wonder if there's any paperwork saying what was sold and who to and when? I can feel a research trip over the Pennines calling!
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 14, 2012, 03:30:45 PM
Have we factored in when Bagley stopped producing Ilkley and when trinket sets went out of fashion?
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 14, 2012, 05:36:21 PM
Sort of, Christine. Ilkley ended c. 1955 according to Angela;  the eBay seller says these were reproduced in the mid-1960s in Denmark, so the timescale fits if the Ilkley moulds were some of those Angela says were sold off earlier. 

But trinket sets were old hat by the 60's, which is what's really puzzling me about them possibly being made in Denmark.  Ilkley is not a design that sits well in the 1960s by anyone's standards, is it?
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 14, 2012, 06:23:25 PM
Exactly. I think the seller is just making it up.
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: exislegirl on June 16, 2012, 04:30:28 AM
I messaged that seller about the blue set back in Nov 2011, and his reply to me then, was: 'The British version was a copy of the 1960's Danish original. This is one of the 1960's Danish productions which i purchased in Copenhagen.'

I was particularly interested, as I also have this set with the scent bottle, bought back in about 2006/7 in the UK. Unfortunately, I'm hopeless at adding photos on this site, but here is a link to an image in my Picasa Album:

https://picasaweb.google.com/103416468472622115928/GlassTrinketSets?authkey=Gv1sRgCJmyvrHUu43yFA#5650557889237284594

Natalie
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Jayne on June 16, 2012, 02:10:32 PM
I think your answer explains a lot Natalie! ;)

Interesting to see you have an "Ilkley" perfume bottle too, and I LOVE your photos, another trinket set fan woohoo!!!

Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: exislegirl on June 16, 2012, 02:48:23 PM
Sorry - the link in my previous post no longer works, so here is another:

https://picasaweb.google.com/103416468472622115928/ShowTell2?authkey=Gv1sRgCOvir_2iz7Pj-QE#5754646093665870242

Natalie
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 16, 2012, 03:57:28 PM
That's a much better pic of the bottle detail, Natalie, thanks for adding it and your info to the debate.  It looks like it was meant to be a part of the set, doesn't it?

It's interesting that the only 2 of these to surface so far have been in this frosted blue.  Has anyone seen the bottle elsewhere, on its own or with other sets?

Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Lustrousstone on June 16, 2012, 04:34:59 PM
Quote
'The British version was a copy of the 1960's Danish original. This is one of the 1960's Danish productions which i purchased in Copenhagen.'

Did they do time travel at Bagley? Perhaps the Dr popped in ::)

We know Bagley was mainly a bottle manufacturer so why not. It was probably a retailer commission
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 16, 2012, 05:18:13 PM
Heh heh heh I missed that quote from Natalie's convo with the seller...   :D 

We know that the British version was the original, having been first shown in the 1933 Bagley catalogue supplement, and made by them through to the 1950s. I'm not seller-bashing (see Board Policy) so no further comment on that. 

The big puzzles are:

1. Was the bottle made by Bagley or not?
2. If not by Bagley then by whom, where and when?
3. Is it seen in any other colour?
 
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Jayne on June 16, 2012, 07:30:47 PM
Did they do time travel at Bagley? Perhaps the Dr popped in ::)

That did make me laugh Christine!

I've not seen the bottle at all anywhere else Anne.
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 23, 2012, 05:47:41 PM
I've had a further reply from the seller, with a slightly better pic of the bottle (not really need now we can see Natalie's fab picture) but he also tells me that the maker was a small glassworks in Denmark with a name like Ludwig or something similar...  which is another possible step forward...  ???
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Pinkspoons on June 24, 2012, 08:49:15 AM
The only Ludwig I know of in Danish glass production was Robert Ludwig, who ran the Helsingør bottle factory on Bornholm from 1857 - but it was eventually sold off to Kastrup, and closed entirely in 1895.

 ???
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: HarderNet.dk on June 24, 2012, 10:06:32 AM
I've had a further reply from the seller, with a slightly better pic of the bottle (not really need now we can see Natalie's fab picture) but he also tells me that the maker was a small glassworks in Denmark with a name like Ludwig or something similar...  which is another possible step forward...  ???

Hej Anne

The name "Ludwig" as a glassworks does not say me anything. A name close that I can think of would be "Lyngby Glas" but it was not a glasswork but a company that did import stemware to the Danish market, but did not have any production.
You can find few of "Lyngby Glas" on my homepage, click "Designers" scroll down to find "Lyngby Glas" click link to go to subpage for "Lyngby Glas".

As for if the Bagley Ilkley trinket set was reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's I will say that it is not something I have come across. The main producer of pressed glass was Fyens Classwork and was the main factory of this kind of glass work under Kastrup Classwork. Of cause Holmegaard Classwork also made pressed glass.

Holmegaard Glasswork did in 1963 made a reproduction of a mould from 1912 that they at that time had difficulty making - Can be found on my website under "Artglass" click letter "P" to jump down and find "Presset glas", click link to go to subpage scroll down and find a ice blue dish with fine pattern, also I know that there was made a bowl with same colour and pattern.
Same place there also is a link for Kastrup/Fyens "Presset glas" and there is to be found a candlestick set a bit similar to Bagley Ilkley candlestick.

As I see it this type of pressed glass, colorful lots of pattern did start approx. 1910 in Denmark and hardly no production after 1950.
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Anne on June 26, 2012, 12:54:35 PM
Nic, thank you, we can probably rule that one out? :)

Peter, thanks for coming to comment on this, much appreciated. It seems from your observations that a production date of 1960s for these items would be very unlikely then?  I've gone through your pressed glass pages (they are fascinating, thank you!)  and note very few dates after the 1950s. I'm finding it hard to believe that anywhere in Denmark in the 1960s would want to take the risk of making items such as these from the 1930s.
Title: Re: Was the Bagley Ilkley trinket set reproduced in Denmark in the 1960's?
Post by: Jayne on July 17, 2012, 12:52:38 AM
Interesting discussion thanks for all the interest. I noticed another listing with 2 sticks 2 lidded pots and the again the matching bottle in the same frosted blue.
LINK (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item2ebdf8344e&item=200755655758&nma=true&pt=UK_Collectables_VanityCollectables_SM&rt=nc&si=GnrWA9euwn2cBIMMdg3O4eWh89c%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc)