Glass Message Board

Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: petet63 on June 14, 2012, 07:18:23 AM

Title: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on June 14, 2012, 07:18:23 AM
I know how difficult it is to pin down a pattern. I have looked at so many Ed Crystal patterns I was nearly put off Crystal  :o :o I used all the usual suspects with no luck. I will try to email Ed Crystal again. I tried previously with no luck and f they dont know who else would :-\
Until a reply comes back I will throw it open to The members on here and cross all my fingers ;D
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 14, 2012, 08:06:54 AM
I'm not suggesting it will provide the answer but it will be of interest, if nothing else, to know what the back stamp looks like, as this should provide an idea of the period during which this piece was made.        I agree that hunting for some of the older patterns can be a nightmare, and too often gets nowhere.     Since Edingburgh Crystal (as opposed to E. & L.), go back a long way  -  perhaps they don't now possess complete records of their patterns.     If you are unable to take a pic. that can be posted, simply describe the details.        Looks a nice glass. :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 14, 2012, 09:46:58 PM
there might be a possible match for this pattern on the www.replacements.com site (in the States I believe).        Try looking under Crystal, then Edinburgh Crystal, and run down to pattern Edi45 (long way down)..........described as Fan, Criss-Cross and Cross-Hatch Cuts, No Trim.       Unfortunately, no manufacturing date given, and seems no pieces in stock, but I suspect this was a 1990's type of issue  -  pictures on the site are not as good as yours, but there is certainly a great deal of similarity.           Let us know what you think. :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on June 15, 2012, 06:05:45 AM
Paul S you are a star mate, its a match ! Thanks for taking the time to help. I will try and see if there is a name for it and a date. I somehow messed up my bookmarks and have found that my replacement site link was not the same as the site you gave me the link for. That is now sorted. I have taken these pictures, a bit blurred but they show the mark Edinburgh Crystal used from 1955 to 1980.(Flour usually works ;D) They are really good quality glasses, Sherry Glasses I think, at 11cm tall.
  I have 4 E & L Glasses I still haven't found a pattern name for and had them on here with no luck. They date from 1929 and have nibbles that need polishing out. Once done it would be impossible to notice, They are good quality. I have put a picture on just for interest. I think you have a Brilliant cut E & L and you might have commented on the link (I cant find)  previously. Thanks again, its good to find something as its so frustrating sometimes and as you say some just stay a mystery.
  There is somewhere a collection of Ed Crystal pattern books, but cant recall where I read that.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 15, 2012, 03:33:21 PM
Pete  -  Don't know whether you have the small booklet "The Story of Edinburgh Crystal' from Dema Glass and written by H. W. Woodward - really a potted history of the C19 and C20 history of E. & L. and then with the name change in 1955 into The Edinburgh Crystal Glass Co.       Very interesting, but not something you'd buy if you wanted to research glass patterns or designs of Edinburgh Crystal - apparently those are in '14 substantial volumes', and were at one time at Penicuik, although may now be at Broadfield House Museum, and I believe are mostly (if not all) the earlier pre name change patterns.         Presumably these would cover the period of your four E. & L. glasses (for which you don't have a name), and which you say are 1929.         Now you have the Replacements webb site, you might try looking for them again - should I see them I will let you know.
As for the expression 'brilliant cut', I have an E. & L. dessert (or similar) bowl on stem, which is cut deeply all over the bowl, which I thought was the qualification for brilliant cut, but not sure.    Originally, it was a description from the States in the late C19, which then spread to Europe, but when we all got fed up with cut glass it seems to have disappeared.
I really don't know where or how the Replacements Ltd. people found their images and data shown on their site.
As you say, your mark is the post 1955 back stamp when the company had become The Edinburgh Crystal Glass Co., although how much 'post' I don't know. :)

P.S.    To me there seems always the potential for confusion with the expression 'Edinburgh Crystal'.   On the one hand it is simply the name given to lead content cut glass produced in Edinburgh, by several companies (including E.& L.) and then there is the possibility that it might be referring specifically to The Edinburgh Crystal Glass Co.........ughhhhhh
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on June 15, 2012, 07:43:29 PM
I do have the story of Edinburgh Crystal and now realise it must have been you that told me the patterns were somewhere. Sorry for having to repeat yourself :-[ I have a terrible memory problem (ask anyone on V strong painkillers). I regularly have to double or triple learn for facts to stay put, that's my excuse and I am sticking to it  :)  I have just been looking at an American site with the Brilliant cut glass and did think it similar and some nice pieces. I can sit and look for glass for a long time so will hit the replacements site. Has anyone tried contacting the museum about access to the records (pray they put them on disc  ???) Could the Replacement site EDI45 just be their own File name ? I will have a go at asking them a few questions. I like my glass but am getting drawn more and more to crystal, my wine tastes much better out of good crystal but will refrain from drinking sherry out of these. I had some Cumbria Crystal and the quality of those is matched by these. I have no idea yet where these fit in with a date and only have 25 yrs to aim at  :) so will see how it goes with emails and research and let you know. Thanks for your help.

Just looked at EDI167. The photo again is not the best but holding my E&L up at the same angle it could be the same. The base of the bowl, stem and foot are the same I would say. I have emailed and asked about the codes/pattern numbers. EDI48 is the same cut with a cut around the top near the rim.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Anne on June 16, 2012, 07:48:50 PM
I think that replacements.com do use their own IDs for things as well as official names. Pete, this is another very useful site to know about for crystal patterns: http://www.discontinueddesigns.co.uk/category.aspx?categoryid=7 :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on June 17, 2012, 02:12:24 PM
I do have that site thanks and it has been useful. The Replacement site wants to use my pictures but didn't answer my questions so hope they will if I send the pictures. I have emailed a few people and Waterford have said they will take a look to see if they can help so fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 17, 2012, 03:52:48 PM
quote.................."The Replacement site wants to use my pictures"..............it occurs to me that this is quite possibly the method they use to source their web site pictures of drinking glasses.            I had wondered why some of their images looked a little dodgy, and with varying backgrounds.          It's likely also that where possible they use a factory name, if this accompanies  someone's image, failing which (as with your glasses perhaps) they do as Anne has suggested and simply attach their own ED No.
Thinking about the ethics of the matter (i.e. their use of images of our glasses), it may be that 'exchange is no robbery'  -  after all we trawl their site for data and identifications, and make use of the fact that they make this information available publicly - so it works both ways, and don't think I'd object if they asked to use one of my pictures.
Just my personal opinion you understand. :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on June 18, 2012, 05:52:50 PM
"Exchange is no Robbery" Seems fair enough to me. I did notice that some images were taken in other peoples homes etc. Do you not think that if you have the item at hand for sale you would get the photo's done and put up on their site They can use mine any time if they are good enough. Hopefully they will answer the questions I asked.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 18, 2012, 06:28:00 PM
I agree that it does seem pointless perhaps that they should use the images of other peoples glasses, to show on their replacements web site, when in fact they don't have these items for sale.         Obviously, they aren't going to have your glasses - in fact there may be quite a few designs they will never have available for sale.            But then maybe that's to overlook the fact that the more images they have, then the more likely buyers will use their site, believing they have a very comprehesive collection, and are in the business of supplying almost anything.         I can see their logic.           Perhaps they purchase glasses from ebay or some such  -  anyway, I hope you get a helpful reply.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on June 18, 2012, 08:30:10 PM
Getting requests for Crystal then sourcing them from anywhere including ebay would seem one of the likely things to do. (Just read that if they have HC next to an item it means that they reproduce the pattern for you) I have had a reply from Broadfield Museum.


Thank you for your email.

Under normal circumstances I would have been able to forward your email
to Roger Dodsworth who is Keeper of Glass at the museum, but alas he has
been off sick for several months.  He is expected to return on a part
time basis for a short time, but whether he will be able to investigate
the patterns for you I am unsure.

I will forward the email anyway.

The patterns will probably be in the Thomas Webb books as the date is
before the company was taken over by Crown House and Edinburgh moved up
to Pennicuik.

I am afraid I do not have any catalogues, but I will put out the request
to The Friends as there may be a collector in their midst who can help.

Another avenue would be to contact Wedgwood Waterford who bought
Edinburgh Crystal - they may have an archivist who can help

Regards

Barbara

 I have already emailed Waterford as the Lady suggests and will see what happens. What do you think of the Thomas Webb connection ?

Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 19, 2012, 08:37:25 AM
Hello Pete  -  don't think you ever explained the reason why you believe your four E. & L. glasses were from 1929  -  to me it sounds a tall order to be able to pin the manufacturing date to one particular year - but for all I know maybe you have the original receipt ;D
Looking again at Woodward's book, he states that E. & L. became part of Webb's in 1921, and in view of Barbara's email comments to you, she thinks it is 'probable' that all of the E. & L. patterns, from that date until possibly 1964 when Crown House bcame involved, would be in the Thomas Webb pattern books.       This may be so, and would be a quite logical assumption, but I'm not that clued up to know - we need someone with far more knowledge.                 
These two factories were some distance apart - Stourbridge and Edinburgh - but record keeping was usually thorough, although I assume the pattern books were kept at Stourbridge. 

I'm unsure from Barbara's other comments, if she is suggesting that the Webb archives are currently with Wedwood Waterford  -  I think you'd have to ask the lady if she can be more specific on that matter.

As we've said, running these patterns down can be very time consuming and often fruitless.       Probably fair to say there have been more individual drinking glass patterns produced than any other type of glass ware - if you take the last three hundred years say.      Looking just at the better known names that can sometimes be found on glasses  -   Webb, E. & L., Edinburgh, Stuart, Webb Corbett, Tudor, Walsh, Royal Doulton  -  you'd probably need a few lifetimes to get anywhere half serious with pinning them down.

Agree with you, cut glass can be beautiful and desireable  -  unfortunately few people here seem to collect.   
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on June 19, 2012, 10:17:36 AM
The reason I say 1929 is very simple, I havent looked at the dates for the mark and 1929 is in the area of, now I have looked again  ;D, the dates for the E & L mark 1927 to 1939. I have a bad memory sorry for confusion  ;D ;D
  I mentioned the 4 glasses in this post and I think she meant that Waterford might be able to help. I had a reply from Waterford saying she is passing my email and pictures to the right people to help. I have looked at some Webb Crystal patterns out of curiosity and as with other companies there are similar patterns. Its a real problem. If a company like the Replacement site cant find a lot of patterns the few of us on here may take a little longer but it keeps the grey cells moving, mine go to sleep so easily  ;D
  I would love to collect to keep. I keep a pair of wine glasses for a drink, currently Royal Scot Saturn,  the Waterford pair I had  >:( , my sister obliged in breaking one first and said she, would replace it until she saw the price lol, then I hit the tap washing the other. took a week to throw the broken bits ! I picked up a nice pair of Gleneagles St Andrews pattern yesterday for a 1. Got to love Charity Shops  ;D
   I know very little about crystal and a lot less than you so I do appreciate the time and knowledge. I will let you know if I find anything else. Thanks Paul.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 19, 2012, 01:00:32 PM
morals of the story...........don't let you sister use your glasses.........and don't wash them under the tap whilst peed. ;)
Charity shops have been good, at least until a year or two back, although they are now but a shadow of their former wealth of goodies.

Also, never knock your own knowledge - it's likely you're a lot better on crystal glasses than many others here  -  keep up the good work, and do remember to show pix here of any new pieces that you can attribute.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on June 19, 2012, 01:17:05 PM
Very true about the Charity Shops. Slim Pickings, The Ditchfield vase was a surprise to find and surprisingly rewarding  :) Car boots if you get in early are OK. I hear the words "they were my grans" and im drawn in  ;D A few Dealer types in there as well but I know they can't know everything. I will post a few I have over teh next few days. I'm getting quite a library that I am still working on as I tend not to rename the pics. Thanks.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Anne on June 19, 2012, 03:12:04 PM
We have a small but growing crystal patterns album on GlassGallery if you'd like to help populate it, Pete. :)
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=734
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on June 19, 2012, 04:56:37 PM
I have registered, will post some soon.  Replacements replied that they generate the code where the pattern name is unknown. seems they don't know quite a few. ;D
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Anne on June 19, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
You've been activated as well Pete, so you're all set to go. :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on June 20, 2012, 11:58:56 AM
An American has bid on these glasses. I asked if she knew anything, she replied that she didn't know the pattern but had some E & L in this Pattern. I will see if I can get a picture. The chase goes on & on & on  :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 21, 2012, 08:51:19 PM
Hello Anne  - I have now registered too, for the crystal patterns album (at least I think it's worked), so hope to be able to add some patterns - some with id's too - soon.

Pete  -  if you want to see examples of 'brilliant cut'  -  have a look at page 81 in Miller's '20th - Century Glass) (the Andy McConnell one).   These examples are all from the States, and show the quite typicall American cutting which includes pin wheel decoration, cross cut diamonds, and very deep curved mitres.     Very tasty.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 21, 2012, 09:16:02 PM
Anne - meant to ask.........can the crystal album include things like Walsh's 'Fruiting Vine' pattern, which does include some wheel engraving, as opposed to cutting only?? :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Anne on June 21, 2012, 10:03:27 PM
Paul, I've activated you on GlassGallery now.

I don't see why Walsh's 'Fruiting Vine' pattern and suchlike shouldn't be included. The criteria is crystal, so anything goes.  If we need to we can always sub-divide the album later. :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 22, 2012, 08:21:06 AM
thank you Anne.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: chopin-liszt on June 22, 2012, 11:07:01 AM
Does the gallery need just general images of cuts by known makers?
I have a few I could add, when/if I can get the ****** things photographed.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Anne on June 22, 2012, 03:15:54 PM
Yes please Sue. Like any reference album, the more info it has the more useful it will be for everyone. :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on June 22, 2012, 05:15:56 PM
Sub dividing is a great idea. Individual makers would be useful. Can the tags be altered after I put them in ? I should have put details on like size and possibly date mark.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 22, 2012, 09:30:23 PM
I have made a start, but now need to go back in and modify slightly............and I do this how.......... :-[
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 28, 2012, 01:18:40 PM
sorry, need the Mods please to amend as follows, if possible.
1..........put correct title of 'Kenilworth' onto the first item showing in Crystal Patterns

2..........please delete the four duplicated files (those with a comment) re the Walsh 'Fruiting Vine' on page 4.

I am getting better, but these were hiccups in my early attempts.

Many thanks. :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Anne on June 28, 2012, 03:34:41 PM
Hi Paul, your 4 duplicates are deleted, but I'm not sure which file you want renaming. Can you give me the direct link please? That's the one in the info box below the image, and will end with a - followed by a number, like this -1234.  That link is the only one which will ensure I find the image you need, as the album page view sort order can be changed by using the + & - controls above the images, so your first image in an album might be the last for me, or somewhere in the middle even. :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 28, 2012, 06:09:25 PM
thanks Anne  -  when I look at one particular whole page of the various 05 Crystal Pattern files, my four images of the 'Kenilworth' pattern have ended up being called  'PMS/22.06.12 - 012 - 014 016 and 019  -  which was not what I intended.         Each image should be called simply  Walsh  'Kenilworth', so that people looking at pages of files will know the name of the pattern without going into that file.    Hope I've made myself clear - as you know, I'm far from the worlds best at pc techno stuff.       

I can now add files without mistakes, I hope, so shouldn't need to bother you again, and sincere thanks for the help. :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Anne on June 28, 2012, 08:11:55 PM
All sorted for you now Paul, and thank you for adding your pics, they all help enormously. :)
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on June 28, 2012, 08:36:03 PM
many thanks Anne  -  lots more to come, when I get the time - hopefully it'll give us an enviable reference site for C20 drinking glasses.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Cazza on March 19, 2013, 05:43:18 PM
hi Pete63
I have a whole suite of EDi45, and it took me ages to find the pattern. They are lovely glasses
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: petet63 on March 19, 2013, 08:54:13 PM
They are nice glasses. The pattern name still eludes. I find a lot of crystal that is hard to ID. A stamp gives a name but the pattern can still be hard to find. I was very lucky with six Tumblers I bought this week. Purely by accident I found them to be Kinver Crystal. I hit the wrong link and the pattern was there. That never happens enough. Finding patterns while looking for others does happen but never the wrong link.  ;D As Paul S has said lots of pattern books have disappeared with companies being taken over. We can but look and hope.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Frank on April 27, 2014, 03:06:31 PM
http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=182&Itemid=6 has the 1977 catalogue in full and other individual items too.
Title: Re: Edinburgh Crystal Pattern
Post by: Paul S. on April 27, 2014, 03:32:58 PM
thanks for adding that Frank  -  superb reference source :)