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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on July 27, 2012, 05:12:56 PM

Title: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on July 27, 2012, 05:12:56 PM
I'm hoping someone recognises the design of the Acid Cut Back gilded decoration of birds and flowers.  It's a beautiful deep amethyst,nightmare to photograph though.  Excellent quality piece (hoping not Walther). The band is acid cut back - It has oval sideways lenses cut along the should and vertical facets from the band down to the base.  The stopper is cut at the top and has gilt lines on it.  Stopper has a gilded no 5 on it,nothing on the bottle but I'm sure they are a match.  The bottle had plain gilded bands around the top and bottom of the ACB decoration but they are worn away.  Base is polished completely flat and bevelled at the edge.  Goldberg used the lens decoration on a couple of pieces in Truitts that also have the ACB decoration, but those have figures not the birds and flowers.  Goldberg also used the Acid Cut Back with that gritty background.  I can find reference to Moser using it but none that have that texture so far.
It's about 5 1/2" tall (14cm  ish?)  The gilding is mostly there although it may not look like it in the photos.  Looks fantastic lit up but I can't seem to photograph it well  ::)
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on July 27, 2012, 05:17:56 PM
more pics
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on July 27, 2012, 05:22:09 PM
hopefully one more close up
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on July 27, 2012, 10:18:39 PM
Hi

this one has always stumped the experts

definitely not Moser

I seen two examples of this design in Museums

Passau, in Bavaria, has it in a cabinet - just marked Haida and Steinschönau

Whereas closer to its likely home, in Jablonec, I found an example marked:

Oroplastic decor 1910-1925: The Ceska Lipa area  - (some miles SW of Jablonec I think)

Now I think neither of these descriptions totally excludes Goldberg, but I suspect it was from another smaller central bohemian/Czechoslovakian  refiner

cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on July 27, 2012, 11:23:48 PM
Mike thanks so much.  I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge  :)  I'd come down on the side of not Moser and thought Goldberg was a possibility - but I've not been able to find anything to match them to the pattern apart from the facetting on the bottle, so at least I know I was going down the right route.  Hopefully something will surface in time.  Meanwhile it is very nice to know I have a piece that has a relative in a museum - do you remember what shape the piece was you saw btw?  I've not seen anything like this (assume it's a cologne bottle) having searched through all the pics in Truitts including the catalogue reprints etc.  The only thing I did I think spot was that Palda also seemed to do this gilded frieze but I coudn't see any of the detail on the pictures.  And do you know what the birds are at all please?
Thanks once again.  I'm grateful.
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on July 28, 2012, 02:21:41 PM
Hi

I never worked out what the bird is -the romantic in me wants them to be a phoenix but they could be anything!

yes I think yours is a cologne bottle or a perfume from a traditional 3 or 4 part Bohemian dressing table suite

The example in Jablonec is a elegant tall dekal pokal (lidded glass) and the one in Passau is a faceted bullet-shape vase.

Thinking about it as they were almost certainly done by a refiner (ie not a glass maker but a decorator) theoretically the blanks could be by Moser -but lots of people did such blanks -the blanks could even be Riedel or Josephine -just possibly Harrach.

cheers

M

 
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on July 28, 2012, 09:44:56 PM
Thank you :)
I will keep an eye out now to see if I can find a match for the pattern (or the set somehow).  I suppose unlikely but you never know  :)
It is a similar design to a phoenix - I wonder if that has any symbolic meaning to the company or whether it is just another 'mythical' design as many of the other oroplastic pieces seem to use mythology in some way although always incorporating people as well.  I did find two other pieces that are a little different, the elephant one in Truitt's and also a Moser piece that was just flowers/scrolls type thing. 
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 07, 2012, 11:34:24 PM
searching for something else I came across this Steinschonau cologne.
I guess it may have been the style then but the stopper reminded me of mine.  That curious straight up piece with a cut top into a point
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/8852923
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Jayne on August 08, 2012, 12:36:38 AM
There is a powder bowl Ebay listing labelled, which looks like a similar design, listed as Waltherglas "Hellas", also if you seach Google images "Walther Amethyst" or search Ebay "Walther Amethyst" more items appear.

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Artdeco-Glass-bowl-lid-ca-1920-Hellas-Waltherglas-Bohemia-like-Moser-/180898167953

Lovely bottle by the way. :)

Edit : Oh, now I google Moser Amethyst many items appear also, shows what I know. ;D
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2012, 10:05:09 AM
Just putting this on here for some similarities with the cutting although I guess that could be said of other pieces as well, but this one is marked Haida
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110930902721?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
I like the green.

Jayne, thanks for looking  :)  I am pretty sure it isn't Walther.
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Jayne on August 08, 2012, 10:13:06 AM
No worries m, I had no idea there were so many pieces in this style. :)
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Ivo on August 08, 2012, 01:32:32 PM
Probably by Adolf Rasche (Haida) circa 1930 then.
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 08, 2012, 02:33:59 PM
M

You are definitely on the right track

At Passau right next to the oroplastic piece with your 'phoenix' pattern they have another example of the ebay item you listed.

The black silhouette pieces are from the same area and hence probably share similar blanks.

Ivo - the Adolf Rasche attribution is fascinating -I've never seen any oroplastic work by him have you ever seen an example?

It would be great to tie down these patterns to a maker

cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Ivo on August 08, 2012, 02:44:34 PM

Most items are identified as Moser even if they are clearly by Hoffmann or VSL -I guess it is force of habit which perpetuates misattributions.  The only one I have been able to pinpoint is
http://www.papilio.cz/en/archiv.php?aukce=a20&pol=5778&PHPSESSID=912073be9f35e0f297bf449f362b40bb
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2012, 03:48:30 PM
Mike sorry, just for clarification is it the green vase and decor where there is a similar piece to mine in a museum or is it the Steinschonau black silhouette perfume you were referrring to please?
Ivo, fantastic, I presume that is Adolf Rasche's mark.
The one you linked to is the same decor as the green I think?  I have asked permission from the owner of the green to be able to put that on the board.
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2012, 04:24:20 PM
Permission has been given by JCthekid to put his photos on the board.
pics should be attached.
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 08, 2012, 04:28:20 PM
Ivo - thanks for that link very interesting!

M -here is the best picture I managed -it was in an unlit cabinet in the basement of Passau -
NB - I do have permission to show/share my Passau photos.

And yes the vase I was  talking about (to left of 'phoenix') - was like the green oroplastic that you have show above not the silhouette pieces. Hopefully you can see in the murk and back refections!

cheers

M
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2012, 04:33:54 PM
one more pic of another part of the decor.
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2012, 04:42:13 PM
Thanks Mike - very exciting to see those vases.
Ok, is the oroplastic decor on the bullet shaped vase definitely like my cologne though?  sorry but it is terribly hard to see the pictures on photos of this decor I find.
if it is, then we could tentatively surmise (just possibly) that the two pieces derive from the same place - i.e. If the decor on the amethyst  vase in Mike's cabinet photo matches the decor on the signed AR Haida piece, and if AR stands for Adolf Rasche
then it is possible the 'phoenix' oroplastic cologne is an Adolf Rasche piece.
That would be fantastic.
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 08, 2012, 05:02:43 PM
Well we can get a little closer

Adolf Rasche did sign with a conjoined AR but this particular signature variant I can't trace.

So high probability that green piece is Adolf Rasche -well done Ivo -and very likely the one in the bad Passau picture is Rasche too. I've always reckoned each pattern was a particular maker/refiner.

Yes the one next to it is one with the 'phoenix' pattern  -sorry it was very difficult to get anything photographically useful from that cabinet.

Alas the cabinet is just a mish mash collection of Haida region glass makers doing oroplastic type work -mostly unidentified -we now know one is likely to be Rasche and I've identified another -off picture as Ortel -

Unfortunately the style of oroplastic design is quite different between 'Phoenix' and the Rasche.

So very sorry we are not quite there yet

cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2012, 05:10:14 PM
oh darnit  ;D
The Oertel one, there is one apparently signed with an 'O' in the decor, in Cappa page 115
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 08, 2012, 05:34:44 PM
Alas
No the Ortel is different -in fact a bit of a surprised dear!
oh I also managed to spot a slight geographical error - one oroplastic type they displayed their is in fact Kralik -not exactly Haida area!

sorry no pics

cheers

M
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2012, 05:43:13 PM
Well I think being able to identify the Adolf Rasche piece is still fantastic  :)
I also think those cologne bottles help hone in on the area...so all good - I like having some research to do  ;D
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2012, 06:24:57 PM
This one is id'd as Oertel-Haida
I can't see exactly if the decor is the 'phoenix' but it looks like itmight be.  Mine also has 12 facet cuts.
http://www.icollector.com/Stemmed-Bowl_i1216905
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2012, 07:50:56 PM
Sorry I'm just adding these here for future reference
this one also attributed as Oertel  different gilded decor of ladies holding hands with greenery in the background.
http://antikes-glas.de/product_info.php?cPath=3_59&products_id=237&osCsid=6e9486283d8d4706f6997c42f628c550

and bingo!
This one is also attributed as Oertel it is the Phoenix decoration
Any way of double checking this one? the references are
"These items were exhibited at the World Exhibition in Paris around 1925
Copies in the Passau Glass Museum, Room 32 "
http://antikes-glas.de/product_info.php?cPath=3_59&products_id=367

and bingo again - this one is a blue version of the 'Adolf Rascha' vase and is identified as such and is marked the same way as the green one on the base and the same way as Ivo's linked jardiniere.
http://antikes-glas.de/product_info.php?cPath=3_59&products_id=400
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 08, 2012, 09:30:17 PM
Wow that's starting to be quite a reference set.

Very interesting.

The Passau reference is I think now out of date -basically that whole ground floor of Passau was rearranged and resorted some time earlier this year - an amazing job - so the Phoenix pattern is no longer, if it ever was, attributed to Oertel.

But there is nothing to say its not Oertel -except the only attributed piece I seen is quite different in style.

I do think we have that other pattern nailed as Rasche though.

Mind you dozens of glass houses must have dabbled in the oroplastic technique -lots round Haida, Moser to the east and Kralik and 'sort of Loetz' to the south too.

cheers

M
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 08, 2012, 09:52:37 PM
ah ha

Finally I've found an image of the Oertel oroplastic type design - that I can display -still not very good, the lighting on that floor is horrid.

Its from Passau separated from the general oroplastics and in an Oertel cabinet

cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 08, 2012, 10:00:05 PM
thanks Mike!!
I think I prefer the Phoenix decor  :-[
That is in a 'medallion' or 'cartouche' type effect, so is the one in Cappa but they are completely different in decoration, style of vase, theme ..in every way in fact.
The Cappa identification though just says ' signed 'O' in relief  on a medallion on of the decor.'.  I wonder if that is a recognised Oertel method of signature? i.e. is that definitely an Oertel vase inCappa page 115.  I hesitate to question any more...
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 09, 2012, 08:56:19 AM
Yep

the O is a recognised Oertel signature

and yes I prefer the phoenix too!

M
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 09, 2012, 09:02:08 AM
ok thank you - I need a couple more books  ::)
also then, if they are both Oertel, it appears Oertel did do different variations of this oroplastic decor. But they don't look very like the phoenix do they? 
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 09, 2012, 09:53:54 PM
http://www.elementsgallery.com/gallery/?command=showitem&itemId=370&itemnum=21
signed Oertel lidded oroplastic box - bird decoration but not phoenix
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 19, 2012, 12:32:11 PM
Well, well, well....
I'm sure just as soon as I post this my bubble will be well and truly popped...but post I shall, nonetheless ;D
In Miller's 20th Century Glass by Andy McConnell, page 55 plate 6 there is da da da..... an amethyst cut and faceted footed vase with the 'Phoenix' decoration the same as my perfume bottle and it's a signed Moser piece!!!!!
Described as ' Middle: Signed Moser example in violet cut glass, c1925'

m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Ohio on August 19, 2012, 01:45:36 PM
M I've had a Moser perfume & atomizer confirmed using the Moser contact info during the past two years & they stated perfume bottles/atomizers were rarely signed...the were sold with a velvet bag & box & carried a label.  Ken
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Ivo on August 19, 2012, 01:50:06 PM
<grin> in the book that managed to skip Holland, Norway and most of Germany - you'd wonder just how it was signed.
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 19, 2012, 01:54:50 PM
Thanks Ken :)  I assumed they didn't sign the smaller pieces but that's really good to get it confirmed. To try and get a match on the oroplastic or acid cutback design,  I'd been looking for the matching 'Phoenix' design on a larger piece to see if I could find a signed one - and finally in the Miller's book I did  ;D
So now two pieces of information that would back up my piece being Moser - thank you!

Ivo...as I said...how long before that bubble was popped  ;D
So what do I do?  In Millers that amethyst vase was used as the 'genuine' Moser example to show how others had copied the Moser oroplastic design.  He used a Walther pressed piece and a citrine coloured cut vase unsigned (stating it was a superior piece) to demonstrate v the amethyst signed Moser piece.  That might be taking it a bit far if he was using an unsigned Moser piece or one that had a dubious signature as the comparison 'genuine Moser' piece?  or wouldn't it?  Since I've been shot down in flames for questioning Truitt's I rather step back from openly questioning books now  :-[
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Ohio on August 19, 2012, 01:56:05 PM
Ivo maybe in their terms a label = signed?  I've seen that more than once. Ken
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 19, 2012, 01:58:33 PM
Ken, I assumed Ivo was questioning the fact that the piece in Miller's was stated as a 'signed' piece but did not show a photograph of the signature ie it might not have been a genuine signature on the piece used.
Ivo, please correct me if I have interpreted your post incorrectly
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Ivo on August 19, 2012, 02:01:14 PM
Ask Moser. They're really nice people and they know about these things. The piece may be signed - but how? By whom?
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 19, 2012, 04:02:56 PM
I've sent an email to Moser.  I'll let you know if they respond.
Thank you.
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Simba on August 19, 2012, 09:06:55 PM
The bird looks very much like the Asiatic Pheasant  popular on china  :)
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 19, 2012, 09:23:12 PM
you are absolutely right!  thank you so much  :)
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 20, 2012, 09:16:02 AM
Sorry I'm just going back to this Fachschule Steinschonau set and had a closer look at the pieces.  The perfume bottle is exactly the same design and cutting/facetting as my bottle, it's just in clear instead of amethyst and has the silhouette design instead of the acid cut back or oroplastic gilding around the middle.  The listing states

'Produced by K.u.K. Fachschule Steinschonau, Kamenicky Senov' - would that be the glass itself or the decoration? or both? or just the design of the piece and decoration?

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/8852923
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 20, 2012, 11:47:18 AM
 Veronika at Moser came back to me very quickly and with a lovely and detailed response.

She has shown the pictures to their historian and they have confirmed:

- This oroplastic design ('Phoenix' /'Asiatic Pheasant') has never been used by Moser
 (Mike I know you said this in the beginning  :-* but I thought having seen that apparently signed Moser piece in Miller's 20th century glass it did need to be formally double checked)

- The design of the glass item does not correspond with Moser production

She has also confirmed that Moser pieces of this type are 'mostly signed'.

So...unless I am mistaken in thinking the oroplastic design is the same as mine, the amethyst oroplastic piece on page 55 of Miller's 20th Century Glass might be signed Moser but isn't a Moser piece.
 Please could someone double check that I have got my facts right and that the oroplastic gilded band is the same as the one on my perfume?  Many thanks

Lastly, have we now firmly precluded the possibility that the blank could have been supplied by Moser by their comment 'that the design of the glass item does not correspond with Moser production'.
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 20, 2012, 02:23:15 PM
Fachschule Steinschonau (German name) or Kamenicky Senov (Czech name) as it should be known - is in fact a school for teaching enamelling, cutting and chandelier making, a very very fine one -  and under threat of closure I might add.

So they would never have made the glass they bought in locally made blanks. However, as an aside, I have often wondered, but have no proof, if some of the many designs that were originated by Kamenicky Senov students, where then taken up by the local Haida glass houses, possibly even employing the student that originated them.

cheers

M
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 20, 2012, 02:33:37 PM
Sorry I meant to add

The black illustrations are based on Karl Wilhelm Diffenbach, and in Deb Truitt's books she points out that one of the famous heads of Kamenicky Senov -I forget which - encouraged his students to copy these images onto glass.

cheers

M
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 20, 2012, 02:42:48 PM
Thanks Mike.
There is a mention in Truitt's of a connection between Goldberg and NOvy Bor and although I couldn't find a similar mention regarding Kamenicky Senov I guess it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Also, the liveauctioneer link says those pieces were not signed, so there is nothing definite that they originated at Kamenicky Senov so far.
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 22, 2012, 03:31:32 PM
OK this get even more complicated - as looking through a book today
I spotted one of the lidless pots in the live auction attributed to 'Fachschule Steinschonau' set -you listed and linked to above.

Only this identical pot with another similar pot was identified as:

Alexander Pfohl 1920 for Josephinenhutte  -illustrating figures from Arnold Busch tales. -The book was  Josephine glassworks 1900-1950 Stefania Zelasko. The pieces are at Passau. Now books can be wrong, but I think auction houses have a less reliable track record.

To be fair Josephine and Steinschonau are very close -but in different countries -in fact I think Pfohl may have lived in Steinschonau/Kamenicky Senov

cheers

M
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 22, 2012, 03:46:46 PM
So...just so I can keep my head straight, based on the book you quote the glass was produced at Josephinenhutte and the decoration was done by Alexander Pfohl, on those pieces on my link to the Liveauctioneer pieces?
If so, the link to my perfume is that it is the same shape as those on that set, therefore the glass  could have been produced at Josephinenhutte.  The decoration of my piece is though only a tenuous link to Pfohl, as the blank could have been bought in by another decorating house?
Thanks so much for persevering with this  ;D
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 22, 2012, 03:56:07 PM
Hi

I think it just proves an almost dead-end; Josephine's production is well (and beautifully) documented by Stefania and there is no oroplastic work there. Odd really as they tried their hand at almost everything else.

But they were one of the great blank makers and made a lot of glass in dark purples, blues, reds and green etc.

So we go back to 'an unknown maker' probably in the central norther bohemia area, near Haida etc, just possibly using a Josephine blank but even that's a tenous link!

sorry!

M   
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 22, 2012, 04:05:46 PM
I'm tenacious if nothing else though  ;D I'll keep looking
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Anne on August 26, 2012, 01:56:21 PM
M, in case it's useful, the book on Czech Toilet Glass, Shranky Vuni, by Jitka Lnenickova & Petr Novy, gives the following as some of the producers of oroplastic decoration:
W Kralik in Lenora,
Moser in Karlovy Vary,
Harrach in Novy Svet,
C Goldberg in Novy Bor


Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 26, 2012, 04:13:58 PM
Gosh

Interesting she's added in Harrach -not sure I've ever seen or heard of Harrach Oroplastic decoration. But if Jitka says so I'm sure she's probably right.

If Brian is looking in, or Alica -have either of you seen Harrach oroplatic design? -it would be nice to know what it looks like.

cheers

M
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 27, 2012, 12:06:40 PM
Thank you Anne  :)
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Anne on August 27, 2012, 10:49:49 PM
Mike, there is a photo of one piece with oroplastic decoration in the book attributed to Harrach - it's more open than other designs though... 
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Ohio on August 27, 2012, 11:19:47 PM
I have a question & it concerns the answer the OP received from Moser pertaining to the OP's piece shape/form. Because of this piece I started reading Baldwin's Moser Artistic Glass II & Baldwin clearly states that Moser was top heavy in their decorating department & frequently bought high end blanks from Harrach, Meyrs Neffe, Muhlhaus & Loetz for use in their decorating department. Now if Balwin is correct these shapes/forms would not have appeared in Moser records as Moser shapes/forms & is it not feasible that these pieces "Ask" Moser are disclaiming could be from the Moser decorating department & were in fact sold as Moser? Also would this not lead to instances involving multiple firms blanks such as Harrach being found with oroplastic decoration ?  Ken     
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 28, 2012, 03:08:56 PM
http://www.ebay.de/itm/OERTEL-Glas-Bonboniere-Glasdeckeldose-/200811686382?pt=Glas_Kristall&hash=item2ec14f29ee (http://www.ebay.de/itm/OERTEL-Glas-Bonboniere-Glasdeckeldose-/200811686382?pt=Glas_Kristall&hash=item2ec14f29ee)

M
Just adding this to your reference list -a nice piece with apparently original label -Ortel

Ohio
from my experience with the Moser people they would count as Moser pieces of Moser work on others blanks. Also Baldwin isn't 100% accurate -having said that its an interesting list of potential blank makers. I didn't even know Muhlhaus ever made blanks!?

Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 28, 2012, 04:26:51 PM
Thanks Mike - I wonder if we can get a picture from the seller for reference here after the listing has gone?
I have to ask given Ken's comments from the book, how much do we think Moser would have been using other people's blanks during the period Oroplastic designs were prolific (1920's?) - I had supposed it would be the other way round with other decorators using Moser blanks if anything  :-\
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 28, 2012, 04:57:16 PM
Hi

Actually quite a complicated question

I think it was in 1922 that Moser took over Meyr's Neffe -I'm not sure how big Meyr's Neffe was in 1922 but in 1900 they were big! Which suggest to be Moser were indeed buying capacity (as well as designs etc).

The oroplastic pieces are probably all after 1920 -they registered the term in 1919. Looks like most designs though were after 1922.

So their need for blanks probably changed a lot in the early 20s -and so that doesn't help much

sorry not to be more usefull

M
 
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on August 29, 2012, 12:16:02 AM
Mike thanks for the further explanation - btw there are two pieces of glass with oroplastic decoration under Harrach in Truitt's page 67 - both have dancing maidens on them.
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Mike M on August 29, 2012, 09:31:19 AM
ah ha

Harrach Oroplastics !

Although I tend to challenge most books for accuracy both Deb T and Jitka are amongst the very very best.

So as far as I'm concerned case proven - I'd just not seen/noticed examples before.

thanks

Mike
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on October 01, 2012, 04:50:02 PM
Just adding another 'phoenix pheasant' to the reference guide  ;D
A clear cut faceted lidded box on Glaskillian's site with the same oroplastic decoration
listed as Steinschonau
http://www.glaskilian.de/Deckeldose-Steinschoenau-um-19.653+B6YmFja1BJRD02NTMmcHJvZHVjdElEPTYyMDEmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9NjUzJmRldGFpbD0_.0.html

m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: azelismia on December 09, 2012, 10:09:07 PM
Mike, I thought there were examples we saw at both Harrach and PMC of the harrach oroplastic. You should look over your photographs. I hadn't heard of it before the trip but I was pretty sure we saw a ton of examples on the trip. I think I also remember seeing some examples in the haida exhibit at pmc but I didn't get good photos of that area. I got to that area of the museum after dark and the light kept going out on me and there was that creepy area with the pit and I've read WAY too many horror and murder mystery stories to not get a little freaked even though it's totally irrational, so that area didn't get properly photographed. LOL.

Pg 366 of the harrach book has examples of various patterns used. Rudolf schwedler was the designer
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on December 09, 2012, 10:14:15 PM
hello and thank you for the additional information :) - Since you haven't mentioned it I presume none of the oroplastic items in the Harrach book are of the Pheasant/phoenix decor?  But I am interested that you saw some in the Haida exhibit at the Passau - do you know if there were any id's for the maker of this particular decor or were they just classified as generic Haida please?
btw did you see the link I gave to another vase you posted a long while ago?  I saw a similar one sold recently which might help your id.
regards
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: azelismia on December 10, 2012, 02:58:58 AM
I really don't remember, Hopefully Mike will have pics from that area.  Actually I hadn't seen the original pics of the piece being discussed. I was looking for the pk conversation and found this :) I'll take another look in a few minutes (I am currently maine coon'd and can't move a muscle)
ah ok, she moved. I don't see it in the harrach book. I'll take a look thru my pics and get back to you.
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on January 07, 2013, 11:33:27 PM
Another marked Adolf Rascha piece here in dark amethyst/purple

http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/210-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=101&artikel=26921&L=1&cHash=d9bbdf7091

and here in a mid/dark green
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/210-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=101&artikel=26922&L=1&cHash=213e845762
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Ivo on January 08, 2013, 08:50:51 AM
And another one - no photo.
I saw a really huge footed bowl (I guess around 40 cms 16") in baby blue milk glass with a band of oroplastic gold decoration and the letters VERA. It looked like a shop window showpiece and may have had a lid - it was just too unpractical to keep around the house. It was also too expensive. The colour and the shape were more Empoli than Czech - but as these things go, it could be anything. . .
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on January 08, 2013, 03:43:26 PM
Thanks Ivo :) do you think it was old i.e.30's old, or 60's.  I'm only asking because everytime I see baby blue milk glass now I think of Portugal  ::)  mind you, not sure how the word VERA fits.  I had a quick look round but didn't manage to find anything to compare.
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: Ivo on January 08, 2013, 03:56:07 PM
I only associate light blue opaque with Portieux, Boom or Empoli - not with Portugal. It looked a bit Belgian 1950s.
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: andrea on May 19, 2013, 06:13:37 PM
here is another piece with the same design
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on May 19, 2013, 06:33:08 PM
Hello Andrea, welcome to the board :)
thank you for posting pictures of your vase.  Do you have any thoughts or clues as to the maker at all?
We're slowly building a library of the pieces with this decor.  I hope we will get an identified maker at some point.
m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: andrea on May 19, 2013, 07:42:31 PM
had someone with some knowledge tell me it could be a Moser, there are no markings etc...i'm not a collector, was just doing a little research after someone mentioned it could have some value, looks lonely on our book shelves, if anyone has similar pieces, let me know.
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on May 23, 2013, 11:14:14 PM
This one is listed as Adolf Beckert  - can anyone confirm this person's listing is correct or not?  I've added what they put as their reference source below but I don't have access to it unfortunately.  And I couldn't find anything else similar under Beckert but did find two listed together (one looks the same as the one listed as Beckert I think) and they are both listed as Oertel  :-\ -

The listing is:
a clear faceted vase with a foot and the same oroplastic 'Asiatic Pheasant' decoration as in my perfume bottle - described in this listing as 'Bird of paradise'
The title of the listing is
Fachschule STEINSCHÖNAU Schliffglas Vase ° Paradiesvogel Dekor ADOLF BECKERT
the reference for the id is
Literatur: Pazaurek um 1920, Loetz Band I.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Fachschule-STEINSCHONAU-Schliffglas-Vase-Paradiesvogel-Dekor-ADOLF-BECKERT-/380606002975?pt=Design_Stil&hash=item589de2b71f

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gr-Fus-Schale-Joh-Oertel-Steinschonau-um-1920-/200902817118?pt=Glas_Kristall&hash=item2ec6bdb55e

m
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on January 17, 2014, 08:30:19 AM
I happened upon this lamp whilst searching for something else.
Same oroplastic decoration as my perfume bottle (listed as Moser but no reference source or mention of signature).
Adding for future reference for the shape.
http://www.nealauction.com/archive/0404/lot/lottext/0001-0100/0052.html
Title: Re: Goldberg or Moser?Amethyst cologne Acid Cut Back gilded panel birds/flowers
Post by: flying free on September 20, 2015, 05:36:45 PM
Not exactly identical design but kind of like it's been 'copied' from the Phoenix decoration somehow - like a newer version I guess.  Has been identified as Crystalex Production Unit 2 Novy Bor - I've added a link to this thread because that might provide a vital link to the maker and designer of the earlier 'Phoenix' oroplastic pieces.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4716.msg38020.html#msg38020
m