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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: petet63 on October 21, 2012, 06:28:41 PM

Title: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: petet63 on October 21, 2012, 06:28:41 PM
I have these four Glasses, 10cm in height, 5.6cm diameter at the lip and 6.3cm diameter foot. To me they look and feel old but as usual I am not sure. They seem to fit the usual criteria but can anyone give me more info please.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: Paul S. on October 22, 2012, 01:42:18 PM
not sure what you had in mind as 'the usual criteria', but you make no mention of some important pointers which might help to confirm whether or not they have some age...........is the design cut or moulded  -  are they lead glass compostion  -  what is the extent of wear, not only on the underside of the foot, but on the arris (that sharp intersection between each panel)  -  are there pontil marks/depressions.
If lead glass, with cut decoration, and a bladed knop, then I'd suggest date wise c. 1820.            They look genuine - good to have the four.
Not sure whether to say bucket shaped rummers or small goblets..............the qualification for being a rummer is that the bowl should always look disproportionate to the stem - perhaps Peter will give us his opinion, please :)
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: Lustrousstone on October 22, 2012, 01:59:37 PM
Or perhaps 50 years newer, as they look very similar to this
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1626
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: Paul S. on October 22, 2012, 03:19:52 PM
Don't know that I'd have used the expression "very similar to this"  ???     Different bowl shape - stem - colour, and foot/bowl proportions reversed I'd suggest - though I'd agree they both come from the same century (although the style of the rummers might even go back as far as c. 1790 perhaps).            As I've commented, when posting drinking glasses that are known to have modern counterparts, it's essential really to give as much information as possible - along the lines of these pointers mentioned.    The give away will be if they are lead, and have good quality ground/polished pontils plus appropriate wear.     Quality pic of the underside of the foot is also very useful.       Nice glass though Christine ;           Let's see how Pete replies. :)
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: oldglassman on October 22, 2012, 03:46:37 PM
HI ,
           I would say they are lead , they have been wheel cut and I suspect will probably have nicely polished pontil marks, lol I'll wait to be corrected on the mark maybe, as to date it could span quite a period from the 2nd quarter of the 19thc right through to the 20th century, to me these look to be the latter part of the 19th c, very bright metal and a very sharp blade knop too.As always with many of the simple forms that were produced for a very long time it can be difficult to nail them down precisely from a photograph,so its best guess as usual.
 
 Nice for a wee dram,
and a wee dram is what I will be having out of this glass http://data.bidmaster.co.uk/halls/bidcat/detail.asp?SaleRef=3017&LotRef=250 at the invitation of the auctioneers after a little assistance in providing some important information


Cheers
           Peter.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: Frank on October 22, 2012, 04:07:56 PM
Nice, is that the first Amen glass to come up since the research?
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: petet63 on October 22, 2012, 04:14:44 PM
The pontil is a small polished concave in the middle with a very small mark left where it was snapped. They are lead. I have taken some more pictures as I am as you all know a mere beginner. My usual Criteria are a few miles away from pauls criteria. Mine consist of The look of the glass, the foot and the way they are constructed. I am punching above my weight with old Glass but was fairly confident they had some age. Thanks for all the pointers.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: petet63 on October 22, 2012, 04:40:41 PM
The two small 'marks' in the polished pontil look to be holes  ? you make one out on the right of the left finger. 3 of the four have marks around the pontil mark. One has a small open air bubble on the foot that i thought was a small nick but it has no sharp edge to it. Hope this makes sense.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: oldglassman on October 22, 2012, 05:03:56 PM
Hi ,
          Yes Frank this is the first since the attribution of Sir Robert Strange as the most likely candidate for the diamond point engraved Amen glasses,as Dr Seddon said , now that we are pretty sure we know who created these most valuable Jacobite relics this discovery should make them even more valuable,so far the record is for the 'Spottiswood' I believe sold in the 90s for I think 60k, and I think is now in the Drambuie Collection so it will be interesting to see what happens to this one ,  anyone fancy sharing ownership ?  lol .

cheers,
           Peter.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: Paul S. on October 23, 2012, 09:56:13 AM
Pete  -  these pointers I mention are a normal way of making some attempt to assess the age of glass, something Peter would agree he's doing all the time, and nothing you couldn't do yourself.              The important thing when posting pix - of drinking glasses especially - is to refer to these points when posting, because that's how other people will then try to arrive at a conclusion  -  it's very dodgy to make assumptions based on a picture only.                   I doubt that you're a 'mere beginner', judging by some of your comments, and you now know how to assess this particular type of glass.........lead - colour - pontil - wear - style of knop - foot - seeds -  proportions etc.         Where the pontil snaps it leaves an irregular finish, and often, despite creating the ground pontil depression, some of this irregular finish can remain, and be seen as small holes at the bottom of the depression.           Keep reading the books - nice glasses - hope you got them for a bargain price. :)
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: petet63 on October 23, 2012, 11:56:07 AM
Thanks Paul, I appreciate the comments. I have been searching, a lot, and have got down to either Late Georgian, Bucket Bowl, Flute Cut Dram or Spirit 1820/30 ish  :) or Victorian similar description.  I have seen this style of glass in both periods but none have the 'V' cuts around the bottom of the bowl. These are only the second time I have bought Antique Glass. I learn from here, some books (one you suggested a while back) and the internet. As they were in my price bracket  they were worth a look at. I have seen this being referred to as a'deceptive' glass. I'm not so sure but can see why other glasses are called that.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: Paul S. on October 23, 2012, 06:24:53 PM
can say these aren't 'deceptive' glasses  -  if the toastmaster drank from these all night he be legless.      Yours are normal capacity glasses -  if they were deceptive, they'd hold vastly less.            Deceptive glasses come in a variety of patterns/designs  -  it's the small quantity they hold that gives them their name, not what they look like. :)
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: petet63 on October 23, 2012, 06:35:17 PM
Thats what I thought. The Deceptives have very shallow bowls, sure I have been in a Pub using them. Thanks.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: JOK on October 25, 2012, 03:50:34 PM
Here are a couple of Deceptive wine glasses in the same auction as the Amen glass (6th November):

http://data.bidmaster.co.uk/halls/bidcat/detail.asp?SaleRef=3017&LotRef=143

http://data.bidmaster.co.uk/halls/bidcat/detail.asp?SaleRef=3017&LotRef=145

Very shallow 'bowl', so not much room for wine.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: oldglassman on October 25, 2012, 04:24:35 PM
HI ,
          Just to clarify , 18th c deceptive glasses don't have shallow bowls they have bowls with very thick walls which taper down to the base of the bowl,the idea is that the glass looks like a normal capacity wine or dram glass but actually holds far less than a normal 1 ,so the Toastmaster appears to be having his share , but stays fairly sober , it is recorded that some toasting sessions could amount to several dozen toasts at 1 sitting

 cheers,

   Peter.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: JOK on October 26, 2012, 08:15:04 AM
Yes, that's right about 18th century deceptive glasses, they have a funnel shaped cavity rather than shallow bowl. I've just re-checked the ones from upstairs (you can probably guess where I work!).
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: petet63 on October 26, 2012, 09:39:57 AM
It make sense when you think about it. It looks like a full glass but you don't drink as much. Could work both sides of the bar. Barman gives short measures and the person that like me hates getting drunk can still seem sociable but clear headed. Will be ordering a set made ! People think it strange I don't drink and have never been an alcoholic !!  I like a brandy or a glass of wine but can't handle hangovers.  I will be listing these soon. Thanks for the knowledge all. Much appreciated as it all helps.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: oldglassman on November 04, 2012, 04:06:33 PM
 ;D
 The' King over the water' .

  cheers ,
                  Peter.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: Paul S. on November 04, 2012, 04:56:56 PM
insurrection - sedition - fifth columnist - rebel ..........presumably you're toasting Charles Edward Stuart in exile in France, where he died - with a Jacobite Amen glass.        You're the less handsome guy on the left, we think, Peter ;) ;)        The toast is presumably being made over a finger bowl container water - is that correct?         Thanks to your suggestion, I've now read Geoffrey Wills' book - chapter 11 - which covers most of this subject - and a very worth while read it is.        Would have thought someone like you might at least have had one of the 'Butler Buggin' bowls ;) ;)
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: oldglassman on November 04, 2012, 05:11:46 PM
LOL
             That would be me yes,with a 15yr old Glenlivet in the Amen glass with a Jacobite water glass below. as for the 'Butler Buggins',who says I haven't lol


cheers ,
            Peter.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: oldglassman on November 06, 2012, 08:39:22 PM
    53.240.00  Amen !!  ooooops  edit to correct 52.030.00 inc fees.
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: bfg on November 06, 2012, 08:55:21 PM
Wow oh yes, today was the day wasn't it. did it stay in the UK?
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: oldglassman on November 06, 2012, 09:02:41 PM
Hi ,
           Not sure were it has gone,it sold to a phone bid , but you never know what the jungle drums might reveal  ;D

cheers ,
                   Peter
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: Frank on November 08, 2012, 01:37:39 AM
Great result, but did it make a good glass for the dram?
Title: Re: Old Glasses or not ?
Post by: oldglassman on November 08, 2012, 10:23:14 AM
 LOL  any glass is good for a nice dram,but to have the chance for 1 out of an Amen glass is quite special methinks,so a huge thank you is given to Halls and especially Mr Lamond( the other handsome chap in the photo) for indulging me with this .

cheers ,
                  Peter.