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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: stew2u2 on November 07, 2012, 02:22:51 AM

Title: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: stew2u2 on November 07, 2012, 02:22:51 AM
tried to age this decanter myself any help  would be greatful. i think it might by victorian about 1880 ish. stands about 18cm high
think it might be a water jug as it wouldnt hold much wine or spirit. i think the crest on the front might be an Earl or a Barrons crest. it has a ground pontil. could it be from a household and not the main glass used think it would be more decorated if used by an earl.
im probably totally wrong
thanks
stew
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: Paul S. on November 08, 2012, 03:06:06 PM
In view of handle I'd suggest technically not a decanter (although you can get decanters with handles)  -  there doesn't appear to be any evidence of abrasion that occurs within the neck where a stopper would sit, so most likely a water jug or wine carafe.     I think this style of crest is called 'demi-rampant' - this one looks a little like a griffin, possibly? - something similar, but with lions, forms the mark for Greener and Davidson pressed glass.          This one is wheel engraved and looks as though it's rising from a coronet maybe - looks good quality, and quite adequate for nobility ;)    I'm not sure about who is entitled to wear what - is it a Baronet that may wear a coronet?
It may well be c. 1880 - difficult to say looking only at the screen  -  you don't give any indication of wear, which of often a good indicator.
Either side of the main frosted band, and the central crest, there is a continuous chain of wheel engraved small ovals - a style of decoration which goes back to the late C18, but am sure was also used during the Regency and early Victorian periods - so much was copied - and the handle looks more late Victorian than earlier.          No motto either, so no help there, but would look good on the table and might impress guests ;D 
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: Frank on November 08, 2012, 05:31:58 PM
Neither coronet or griffin are particularly English. More French/Spanish. Fairly well executed so the crest should be traceable... Note tail, fore-claws, beak etc. On coronet decoration close to the that for Marquess or Marquis in Spanish/Italian style.
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: oldglassman on November 08, 2012, 06:31:16 PM
Hi ,
   This form of coronet is frequently found on continental European wheel engraved glasses  from Holland ,Germany, Bohemia and Scandinavia , many can be seen in the Rijksmuseum catalogues, yes Paul another publication for you but a wonderful 2 volume set, unfortunately pretty costly.

cheers,
               Peter
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: Paul S. on November 08, 2012, 07:40:21 PM
since I now try to restrict my collecting to British only, I think I can sleep at night Peter even if I don't have the Rijksmuseum catalogues ;D - only the one book this week, so far, that I didn't have and need. ;)
This looks quality wheel engraving, of which I'm a big fan, so perhaps I too would  have succumbed and bought this piece. 
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: Frank on November 08, 2012, 08:24:30 PM
Intriguing I eliminated all of those countries except Scandinavia on the coronet Peter, but eliminated Scandinavia on the griffin... sounds like useful books though.
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: oldglassman on November 08, 2012, 08:35:37 PM
  " since I now try to restrict my collecting to British only, I think I can sleep at night Peter even if I don't have the Rijksmuseum catalogues "

  They are crammed full of wonderful British glasses too !!

cheers,
              Peter.
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: stew2u2 on November 08, 2012, 11:56:44 PM
Thanks everyone for looking and for all the info
 i have been trying to find the crest all day i have found it on a few web sites but they say it is unidentified.http://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/stamps/ZZZ113_s1 (http://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/stamps/ZZZ113_s1)
photos of the base (what i should have done in the first place being a regular visitor) has quite a few age marks on the base
one thing i have noticed is the handle looks hollow whether that matters for ageing it. is it true that the ground base makes this made after 1800
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: flying free on November 09, 2012, 07:01:10 AM
I can't help with your decanter but the base doesn't look like a 'ground base' to me.  It looks as though it has a polished pontil mark?
m
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: stew2u2 on November 09, 2012, 01:46:36 PM
I can't help with your decanter but the base doesn't look like a 'ground base' to me.  It looks as though it has a polished pontil mark?
m
  thanks for looking. i dont really know what the difference as my glass experience is limited. i thought the pontil was ground down leaving a concave dip in the glass like people say with whitefriars glass to my untrained eye i dont know the difference, and can that change the date of a piece.
thanks
stew
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: Paul S. on November 09, 2012, 03:16:05 PM
perhaps it's the word 'depression' that's missing  -  just to differentiate between a flat ground base (which this is not), and the roughly circular concave effect that is created when the remains of the pontil attachment is ground/polished out.          Quality glass is often finished by breaking the attachment to the pontil rod, giving rise for the need to remove the scar by grinding and thus creating a 'depression'.      Much C18 glass, however, had a kick in the base (substantial indent) which hid the pontil scar (which remained permanently).
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: Frank on November 09, 2012, 05:45:23 PM
All glass that is 'finished' would be ground first - this leaves a matt/satin finish. Polishing can restore it to full transparency and happens after grinding.

Firepolishing also restores to transparency but the surface remains irregular (with certain exceptions)
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: flying free on November 09, 2012, 10:26:20 PM
yes,sorry, I know that,  however to me when someone calls a base a ground base, I think of matt ground flat  bases such as occurs on e.g. some older Chinese glass vases or some studio glass.  I would have described that base as 'has a ground and polished pontil mark I suppose'.
m
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: Frank on November 09, 2012, 11:56:30 PM
Yeah,  but be aware to grind a base 'flat' is usually done on a large horizontal abrasive disk, while a cheap solution for a large co, not so for a small operation where the grinder is likely to be vertical and smaller so that it can be used for more tasks.

Don know why I mention this... just popped into my head. Original comment aimed at Stew not M  ;)
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: stew2u2 on November 10, 2012, 12:22:14 PM
thanks again for all the info
i love this site but the more i look at glass making the more i seem to get confused. timelines are my biggest headache to me this jug could be anywhere from 1800 to 1880 made in Europe  ???
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: Paul S. on November 10, 2012, 01:49:35 PM
look at as much glass and from as many periods as you can Stew - and don't forget to keep reading the books  -  assume you have both the Hajdamach volumes. :)
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: stew2u2 on November 10, 2012, 03:02:49 PM
look at as much glass and from as many periods as you can Stew - and don't forget to keep reading the books  -  assume you have both the Hajdamach volumes. :)
i have a few books but not those they are now on the top of my xmas list thanks
stew
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: Paul S. on November 10, 2012, 03:30:50 PM
Just don't try reading them in the bath, far too heavy - both should have been issued as 2 volume works.
I've just thought...........if you hit a bloke from the nobility, does that make him a belted earl. ;)
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: stew2u2 on November 10, 2012, 08:25:00 PM
just ordered the 1800 one from amazon 15 think thats cheap 40+ on ebay
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: oldglassman on November 15, 2012, 04:04:53 PM
Hi,
          Had a root around and found this 1 of mine. A Light Baluster wine glass , Dutch engraved in the quality and manner of Jacob Sang Amsterdam c 1760 , A very similar coronet I think.

Cheers ,
               Peter.

 thought I would add the whole glass for those interested .  :)
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: stew2u2 on November 15, 2012, 04:18:28 PM
thanks peter
really nice glass the quality of the engraving down to the talons amazes me
thanks again for all the help
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: Frank on November 15, 2012, 06:35:49 PM
Not so sure I would call that very similar Peter. Those balls on the intermediate tips are quite common but missing on Stews - with the small number of elements to combine for various purposes any big differences like that are important. Also the jewelled bands differ but not as significantly perhaps.
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: oldglassman on November 15, 2012, 07:30:36 PM
Hi ,
           Yep ,correct, to quick with the word very,here is another group, again with similar variations , http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-dutch-engraved-goblet-depicting-the-first-5350115-details.aspx?pos=236&intObjectID=5350115&sid=

( previous blurb here deleted because it was rubbish lol , the OPs is obviously a ducal coronet as previously indicated , should have looked back before engaging the keyboard.)

I did find this though which again suggests that this coronet was used by more than 1 country ,  scroll down to KIngston Upon Hull ,
 
http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/yorkshire.html

cheers ,
            Peter.
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: oldglassman on November 15, 2012, 08:09:31 PM
 Methinks we have it ,

    http://www.myfamilysilver.com/pages/crest-information.aspx?id=79670



   cheers ,
                  Peter.
Title: Re: glass decanter / jug age help please
Post by: stew2u2 on November 15, 2012, 09:10:41 PM
also found this same kind of crown
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crown_of_a_Marquis_of_France_(variant).svg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crown_of_a_Marquis_of_France_(variant).svg)
thanks
stew