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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Austria => Topic started by: flying free on November 09, 2012, 07:18:18 PM

Title: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on November 09, 2012, 07:18:18 PM
I cannot resist an ott over-decorated piece of glass and this is so enormous and so beautiful I had to 'rescue' it  ;D (also damaged...OH is starting to make comments like 'we are not a museum m' and raises his eyebrows when I try and justify it)
The enamelled insects are exquisite, high quality enamelling almost as though they were painted in a reference book, and I've not found anything of the quality to match them.
The snakes have smiles and are gilded.  Applied blue top/rim onto the clear with drip trails all the way round.  The whole piece is enamelled all over.
Polished pontil mark on the base and firepolished rim which has been gilded.  The handle has a gilded pattern on it.
I suspect it is probably Harrach?  any thoughts much appreciated as always.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 09, 2012, 07:25:04 PM
more pics
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Anik R on November 09, 2012, 08:05:39 PM
Not normally my kind of thing, but I must say, I do love the insects.  Fabulous find, m!
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Frank on November 09, 2012, 08:09:23 PM
Quite remarkable... OTT is also appropriate :D
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: keith on November 09, 2012, 08:40:27 PM
Got to be one of the top makers,those insects are incredible,you must have some great shops in your area, ;D ;D
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 10, 2012, 12:10:38 AM
thanks all  :)
I've put another close up of one of the winged insects / bugs on, and one of the flowers, as well as the gilding on the bottom part of the handle. The enamelling is quite flat, not raised over yellow underbase or anything.
I suppose it could have been made by Harrach  and enamelled either there or elsewhere.

 There is a smaller Harrach vase on Mike's site here that has snakes with a similar loop in and the blobs on the ends of their tails which I why I thought it must be Harrach.
 http://www.manddmoir.co.uk/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/moir?opendocument&part=11

I don't suppose there is any possibility it might French?
On one of my searches I think I recall reading that Mike had said something about the Bohemian enamellers being more varied in their content of insects...or something similar to that.  Will try and find it again.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Frank on November 10, 2012, 12:28:53 AM
Not so sure about an octopedal flying thingy despite its artistic charms ;-)
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 10, 2012, 12:36:15 AM
six legs only,it's showing through underneath the body but is the bottom part of the leg from the other side.
I checked for discrepancies  ;)  They've been painted by an artist - there may be artistic license on their colours and designs but as far as I can see, they are all insects lol.
The orange fly thing does look  like it's got 8 legs though, but I think that might be antenna or something.  That could be seen as octopedal though I guess  ;D
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 10, 2012, 12:48:27 AM
most of the 'insect'pieces I can find have insects that are painted like this (see link below), or they are in this style, sort of gilded outline or some kind of outline and then infilled with a single colour or simple colours.  They aren't done to the complexity the jug is.
http://www.rubylane.com/item/745016-Moserx20vase/Moser-glass-vase-applied-flowers

here is an Auguste Jean signed vase with close up pics of enamelling.  The jug enamelling far outstrips this in quality as far as I can see
http://www.antiquehelper.com/auctionimages/27435.jpg
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 10, 2012, 02:36:28 PM
I wonder if it was made by Harrach and enamelled by Moser?

Moser enamelled bowl with bird and insects here in Galle's album
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-9584

this one here is attributed Moser but I cannot find reference for the attribution
http://www.antiquesnavigator.com/ebay/images/2011/140627568648.jpg

and on this one here on the last picture the buds have marked similarities with the buds on my jug - again I cannot find reference for the attribution and it doesn't appear to be signed.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/4840534

This link here gives a picture (last picture) it says, of a Moser vase featured in Gary Baldwins book (I don't have this book unfortunately - maybe need to get it)
http://www.rubylane.com/item/649246-MG-106/Moser-Bohemian-Glass-Applied-Salamander
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Paul S. on November 10, 2012, 03:26:19 PM
I've looked through the Truitt's and Grover's books, but nothing quite like this - colourful isn't the word m!     The Harrach creatures always look so comical, must have had some fun in creating them.      There is a Baccarat piece in Grover with a snake and bug although they look more realistic than Harrach designs, and suspect you correct that it's Bohemian.        I'd agree that the orange fly thingy has been given eight legs, but you must allow for some artistic licence.         Great piece - and I don't see any damage, where is it m?
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: oldglassman on November 10, 2012, 03:41:36 PM
HI ,
        Not the type of glass I usually comment on though for this I must say i think the decoration is WONDERFUL . back to loading the car with my bits and pieces for tomorrow.

cheers,
             Peter.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 10, 2012, 05:03:51 PM
thank you both :)  and Paul thanks for going through thebooks again.  I've not found anything in mine either.

Paul it isn't eight legs - the two at the front are pincers or stingers or something similar - the ends are sharp and fine and pointed.  The two front things may not be exactly placed on the head where they should be, but remember my images are greatly enlarged.
see pic here of a wasp as an example -  http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-60477259/stock-photo-wasp.html

The insects I see on other pieces are mostly quite 'simply' enamelled but on this the detail is amazing, no outline, I do think someone who was a good artist painted them.
The snakes are quite comical though in that they seem to be smiling...in the grass.  The whole thing has just been designed so well and thoughtfully.  The blue neck has worn gilded flowers and trails all through the tiny white enamel dots as well.  Hope my pic below shows this - it has another insect painted on the blue as well.
The damage is a vertical  crack down the jug - difficult to see it on display and to be honest I just don't care, I doubt I will ever come across another piece with the level of decoration this one has on it.

It's very heavy weighing 5 1/4lb or nearly 2.5kg, ribbed inside where you can feel very thick curvy ribs and there is a shallow 'foot' integral in the glass. 
I'm coming down on the side that it  is possibly a Harrach vase decorated by Moser.

m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 10, 2012, 07:00:09 PM
It's only just occurred to me to look up the Baldwin Moser book
and look what's on the front cover
http://www.betterworldbooks.com/moser-glass-id-0964708094.aspx
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: wolkenreb on November 10, 2012, 07:42:19 PM
I think it's absolutely GORGEOUS!
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 11, 2012, 01:10:15 PM
thanks :)
I've attached a pic  in daylight now we have some, showing the true blue colours - the handle is a different blue to the neck and snakes. 
I've seen two jugs with what looks to be a handle applied in a similar way, so I think I'm in the right area.
m

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOSER-VASELINE-CRACKLE-GLASS-PITCHER-WITH-ENAMEL-STORK-AND-SEAWEED-GORGEOUS-/150920069299?nma=true&si=e0%2Fnq4Co7eubhwLqaMHY5rdTfVw%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

another enamelled blue one here attributed as Graf Harrach
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aquamarine-Graff-Harrach-Pitcher-ca-1880-1890-/320665118350
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: penelopepitstop on November 11, 2012, 03:44:44 PM
Green with envy.... ;D
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 20, 2012, 03:09:49 PM
Thank you Penelopepitstop :)

I have had a another lovely email back from Veronika at Moser today.  So far they have said 'this glass jug was not produced by Moser glassworks as the design and way of manufacturing do not correspond to the Moser production'

I've just sent another email to ask whether it might have been made elsewhere but enamelled by Moser.

They have also said it was enamelled using a metallurgical technique which is only possible with sodium glass.

I've not found a match for the insects.  I have a new piece with new insects (completely differently done) as well :) will add pics when I get a moment.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Lustrousstone on November 20, 2012, 03:25:43 PM
Quote
They have also said it was enamelled using a metallurgical technique which is only possible with sodium glass.

That sounds unlikely!
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: chopin-liszt on November 20, 2012, 03:32:49 PM
Something not yet commented on is that the neck looks as if it's been applied in "that technique what's name I've forgotten".... incalmo? Where two bits of glass blown seperately are joined.

Even I adore all the insects and can forgive it the OTTness for that. I've compared the quality to my Carltonware "New Flies" enamelling and to photographs of Wedgwood Fairyland Lustre - your enamelling is vastly superior.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 20, 2012, 04:17:46 PM
Thanks Christine - I didn't have a clue what that meant to be honest  :)  I was a little confused by it.  They also said it seems to have been made pre-1930 - I think it possibly dates a good 40 years earlier than that.

I've just started trying to read up on it the gilt enamel on sodium glass  :-\

For comparison, this jug on this link has an insect on and was confirmed as Moser by them http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,20769.msg117487.html#msg117487

Sue thanks :) and thank you for checking those out, that's really helpful to be reassured about the quality.  Yes the 'incalmo' neck bit - it's a little strange in that it isn't entirely smooth like you might find with say a funky modern incalmo cylinder type vase , you can feel an indent on both the inside and the outside right round the ring where the blue has been sat on top of the clear glass - I can't think that was easy to do.  The piece is huge as well, so it's amazing it survived the annealing process isn't it?  or is it?

The more I think about all the bits that went into making this jug, the more I think it must have been vastly expensive to produce.
OH maintains it speaks French to him. And it does have that look, it's terribly 'pretty'.  But I'm still favouring Bohemian and probably Harrach for various reasons at the mo.  I wondered about Muhlhaus for the enamelling - I think I found something on here - I'll try and find it again to link it.
Thanks :)
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: chopin-liszt on November 20, 2012, 05:08:27 PM
 8)
The Carltonware "New Flies" is pre-1927 and underglaze painted; the paintresses were actually sometimes swapped over between both Wedgwood and Carltonware - they were the top quality paintresses at the time - at least in ceramics in the uk and specialising in underglaze painting.
That's the only thing I have to compare it to and the only thing I can actually comment on!
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 20, 2012, 05:10:31 PM
Thank you Sue
I'm going to look  them up now:)
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: chopin-liszt on November 20, 2012, 05:24:09 PM
I can't comment on the quality of the work of named painters working at places such as Worcester - the ones you see being raved over on Antiques Roadshow - all those (bo-o-oring) country scenes with sheep etc. (can't stand them.)
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 20, 2012, 05:48:04 PM
How about Auguste Jean ?


http://pinterest.com/pin/242561129901157760/

Superb Jug  ! 

Mike.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 20, 2012, 06:49:15 PM
Moser have come back quickly to say that the specialist has said that kind of enamelling was done on sodium glass and that was not the kind of glass Moser ever used so not their enamelling.

Sue,  I love the Carltonware flies!  oh they are beautiful wow. Thank you for that.

Mike, I've done lots of looking at Auguste Jean - it's still in the offing for sure.  And I would just love it if I owned an AJ piece - but I've not got round to matching the enamelling as I've just been concentrating on Bohemian to start with.  Mainly because Mike Moir has a little vase on his site with snakes that are looped in a similar way that is id'd as Harrach.

BTW The problem with the pinterest one is that it doesn't say that it is signed.  It looks to be one that was on Live Auctioneers sold 2010.  It isn't signed and was attributed.  It does have a large polished pontil mark and the enamelling is quite French looking so it could be French but  I'm highly suspicious of anything id'd as Auguste Jean if it doesn't either have the applied lozenge or a signature.

  There is a piece id'd as Auguste Jean in Cappa that isn't signed and in 'The Art of French Glass' it says most of his pieces are in museums and mostly signed if I recall correctly, so not committing to 'always signed'. But I'm circumspect because I've seen many recently that have sold in previous years id'd as Auguste Jean with no signature, that look very like some Harrach pieces to me.  Likewise others that might be for example I guess Sevres or Moser perhaps.   I'm still trying to work out which ones could be AJ and which ones definitely aren't   :o
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 20, 2012, 07:51:04 PM
I see what you mean !

Here is an AJ snake

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/auguste-jean-vase-piriforme-a-quatre-pieds-4474070-details.aspx?pos=6&intObjectID=4474070&sid=&page=9

Here's another example ...

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/auguste-jean-vase-piriforme-4474069-details.aspx?pos=5&intObjectID=4474069&sid=&page=9

Note the ribbing on the latter example.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 20, 2012, 08:05:34 PM
yes I've seen them both - I'm quite scared to say anything on here, but neither say they are signed Auguste Jean
one says it is signed with a J in red though admittedly and he did sign in red and I suppose the rest of it could be worn away  :-\.  The other nothing.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Lustrousstone on November 20, 2012, 09:07:08 PM
The first one isn't enamelled, so though it might be the same glassmaker, it isn't Auguste Jean, as he was a decorator
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 20, 2012, 09:34:29 PM
He worked with glass as well Christine I believe.  He made a vase called the orchid vase that doesn't have any enamelling on it I don't think.
I'll find some references.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 21, 2012, 12:34:43 AM
Reference for above comment from me
The Art of French Glass - Bloch-Dermant
page 27
'The strong and attractive personality present in Jean's work triumphed at the Universal Exhibition of 1878.  Abandoning enamels in the Persian manner,the glassmaker showed vases with highly original, even bold and spectacular shapes, in which he seemed quite at ease in expressing himself.  And the material alone proved sufficient as an expressive means and no longer required decoration.  An orchid vase in blue crystal evinces Jena's technical skill in it's dynamic extensions'.
and
'To show that he was not impervious to the artistic influences of hisown time,Jean looked to Japanese models and made a delightful mauve bottle whose pure shape gleams with an iridescence created by the silver foil fused between two layers of glass'.

m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Lustrousstone on November 21, 2012, 07:05:40 AM
Ok but it may not mean he made, rather that he designed and supervised. Glassmaker was a bit of a loose term in those days; many glass companies claimed to be manufacturers and didn't actually make anything, though they probably designed and had made to order.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 21, 2012, 08:57:43 AM
maybe

In
'The Art of Glass: Art Nouveau to Art Deco
 By Victor Arwas, Susan Newell'

it says

' Curiously the most interesting experiments in the production of what was basically non-functional art glass took place in Paris rather than the traditional centres of glass production in France.  And most were not carried out in glasshouses but by individuals working in small studios'

Auguste Jean comes under this paragraph and section in the book and it goes onto say

'Nothing is known about where he learned his techniques or where he executed his vessels although it is likely he hired a  bench, possibly with some workers, at the 'Cristalleries' de Clichy' in Paris.'

m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 21, 2012, 09:24:53 AM
with regard to the link Mike gave above here
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/auguste-jean-vase-piriforme-4474069-details.aspx?pos=5&intObjectID=4474069&sid=&page=9
according to the description this is signed J
There is a Jardiniere in Cappa listed under Auguste Jean page 286 that is signed J

Going back to my jug, I'm well and truly stuck on the enamelling.  I can't find any examples at all where the insects or the detail of the enamelling is as sophisticated and detailed as it is on this.  Either Bohemian or French so far.
I'm going to concentrate on the gilding.

m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 21, 2012, 04:34:57 PM
Here is an AJ signed piece....superb enamelling/representation of the flowers in an art nouveau style. Have a look at the butterfly.

http://www.expertissim.com/verrerie/auguste-jean-vase-tripode-en-verre-souffle-a-decor-emaille-or-o12131094.html

You may have seen it though !

Cheers, Mike.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 21, 2012, 06:24:52 PM
Thanks!  That's beautiful isn't it -  the butterfly is gorgeous and it has gold splodges on it as well. 
I'd not seen that piece and that you can click and get a real closeup of the enamels as well. 

I think I'm fixated on this jug being Harrach partly because the snakes really are so similar to the one on Mike's site and also because the rim and lip of the jug and the profile are very similar to another Harrach jug I found.
 
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 21, 2012, 06:47:31 PM
Yes, I think Bohemia (gilding!) and the Arab market ! Fantastic insects though !! I can't comment on the other links I put forward here....like you m  ;)....but I have an interest in Clichy...that's all !

Cheers, Mike.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 24, 2012, 09:25:30 AM
I might have come up with a possible idea here as to the decorator...

http://www.mikeweedonantiques.com/newsite/stock/glass/bohemian/frizhecher/fritz-hecker.htm

If you scroll down towards the bottom (fourth from the bottom,I think) there are a couple of tumblers with similar style flying insects...also in searching for other Fritz Heckert examples I've seen very similar style flowers and ribbed vases...

Hope this can help a bit  ;) It looks quite promissing to my untrained eye ! Here is another example showing similar flowers...

http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/guidepages/ehtom.html

ta Mike.


Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 24, 2012, 11:41:34 AM
Thank you Mike :)  It was Fritz Heckert I was thinking of not Muhlhaus.  I've been on a trawl and found a couple on Alisa's Gilded Curio site -
one here that has a similar spirit if different decoration.  The way it is painted and the colours have a good similarity.
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-316.html
and another, not quite as similar
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-62.html

m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 24, 2012, 02:35:03 PM
The flowers on your second link above look very similar to the ones on your jug, I feel.

So, if Fritz Heckert founded the Petersdorf Glassworks , later ran by his son, do you think that might be where your jug was made perhaps ?

ta, Mike.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 24, 2012, 10:58:53 PM
Mike I can't answer that question at all I'm afraid.  I suppose it is a possibility. 
I've found another roemer that is a possible Fritz Heckert piece or at least possible FH enamel decoration - it has an insect on.  I have to say this and the other pieces I've seen, apparently  from FH, have the same muted colours and intricacy of the detail  on each element that my vase does....they are the closest I've seen in terms of enamelling, and there is something peculiar about the colour of the leaves that is the same green as the leaves on mine. 
So I think so far, Fritz Heckert is the closest contender in terms of enamelling - thank you for pointing me in this direction  :)

this link is titled Harrach but Fritz Heckert is put forward as a contender http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,32251.msg174350.html#msg174350
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 25, 2012, 09:57:36 AM
Having searched under Fritz Heckert , I haven't seen any jugs with applied snakes yet. I had hoped that it might be a known Petersdorf Glassworks jug shape (with or without the snake).

The flying insects have such a distinctive style though , almost cartoon like , there must have been only one decorator who would have painted bugs like that (surely ?) unless they were applied as some sort of transfer to the glass originally rather than painted directly onto the glass from scratch.....but I have no idea about enamelling techniques. The bugs must hold the key to finding out more  :D

It's a shame there isn't more detail on the Mike Weedon tumblers in the link above...I can't see any legs on the insects (there is a dark area behind where they might be though) !!  I wonder if the tumblers were signed ?

I will have a look at Yahoo.de , see if anything comes up ! Good Luck !

Ta, Mike.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 25, 2012, 11:06:40 AM
 ??? the insects aren't 'cartoon like'  :'( - they are very realistic. The photos I've put up are greatly magnified.
They are the least 'cartoon like' of any of the insects I've seen on all my searches.
Thanks for looking though and trying to help.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 25, 2012, 11:35:33 AM
Sorry, m , I used the wrong turn of phrase ! They are superbly animated and realistic (almost scary) is what I meant to say    ;)

I will carry on my bug search !

ta Mike.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 25, 2012, 11:51:23 AM
 ;D

m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 27, 2012, 03:56:24 PM
Hi m

My 'bugs on glass' searches didn't come to much, but I did find this, different style but interesting enough to post a link here, I hope .....

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/62502-czech-french-orientalist-vase?in=1179

ta, Mike.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 27, 2012, 05:09:46 PM
It's lovely isn't it?  I've not seen insects like that on my travels - I had it bookmarked because the insects are flatly painted and very neat similar to some on another vase I have.
It may be Harrach but I wonder about the enamelling -

I think my jug may remain un id'd Mike... however I am keeping a watch out for Fritz Heckert pieces now and I think the upturned spout of the jug is still quite a Harrach 'thing'.  Thank you for all your help - it is really appreciated. 
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 27, 2012, 06:21:41 PM
It is nice , and I like to read the comments made underneath !

I just can't understand why it isn't possible to ID your wonderful jug ....what is going on ?  ;D

Flumasked, Mike  ::)
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Baked_Beans on November 27, 2012, 07:31:54 PM
errr flummoxed  ???......don't rely on spellchecker  :P
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on November 27, 2012, 08:12:20 PM
I guess no one knows  :)
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on December 03, 2012, 08:53:19 AM
Mark Hill was explaining the technical  difficulty of the incalmo process last evening on the Antiques Roadshow (ref a Venini piece).

Whilst the coloured applied top and spout of my jug is not 'ultra smooth' on the join, it's interesting to me to know they used this technique in the 19th century.  Anyone know of any other pieces dating to this period or earlier, where there is a 'join' of two different coloured pieces of glass in this way?
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: Frank on December 03, 2012, 03:37:50 PM
In theory you can find incalmo back to the 1500s when technique was first described, might be hard to actually find some though.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on December 03, 2012, 04:04:39 PM



Thanks Frank.  I haven't come across any in my books so far but
 http://www.victorchiarizia.com/vc-info-incalmo.htm
I found this great description of the technique which helps visualise the process.

I'm still amazed the jug survived the whole process.
I appreciate my knowledge of glass making is limited but this is a very large  and very heavy piece.  The body is internally ribbed so has been mould blown, then the incalmo process in some way to attach a different coloured glass at the top, then the snakes and applique tears/drops applied, plus the handle, and then the whole thing has been enamelled and gilded and refired again.  Given the time period it was made and  the amount of process it's gone through to achieve the end result, there must have been a high potential for failure along the way.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on January 06, 2013, 01:29:38 AM
Whilst searching for something else I happened upon this uranium glass enamelled vase identified as Auguste Jean.  In the description it says it has a handle missing and looking near the top just under the rim there appears to be an applied thick trail (sort of like a snake type thing as though it might have curled around the piece and become a handle).   Anyway, the enamelling on this, something about it, and the colours of the green leaves, the way they are done, just reminded me of my jug.
There is no reference or reference to signature on the piece though. 
http://www.madforglass.es/french/french_374bb.html
Any thoughts from anyone on whether you see some similarities with my jug, in the enamelling, that I see please?
Much appreciated :)
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on January 07, 2013, 05:19:02 PM
Quite by accident I ran into this jug!
Identified as Moser but can't see any references for that.

http://www.kovels.com/price-guide/glass-price-guide/moser.html?eid=701753
Better link here
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/4469841

I've no idea what the attribution is based on, but wondered if anyone knew if it was a Harrach vase for sure maybe?  The colours look ok for Harrach.
Miraculously it appears to have the same applied blue top to it but on a brown body.  Completely different shape and decoration to mine but the same spirit of all over enamelling.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on January 07, 2013, 06:28:52 PM
I feel I'm getting closer  ;D
see post above
and also this

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/8492711

I recognise the jug or pitcher is different to mine, and I can see that the enamelling is a different kind on the branches, but I'll be darned if that isn't from the same house as my jug, those insects are good, the flowers have a marked similarity.  It is signed on the base with what looks like it could be an enamelled 'm ' and numbers, but I've no idea if that is a Moser mark or Harrach.  It's been id'd as Moser but I don't know.
Thoughts anyone? 
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on January 10, 2013, 12:05:15 AM
I've been through hundreds of images checking for enamelling and found nothing definite to link my jug to Moser  - as stated earlier in the post, Moser have already said they didn't do this kind of enamelling.  But I've been checking signed Moser pieces to try and establish the differences between my jug and their type of enamelling. 

Then just a few minutes ago, I found this!
a tumble up with both the glass and the water decanter signed Moser according to the description (can't see a picture of the sig).  The enamelling type does look like that done on my jug. 

If this is Moser, and Moser have said they didn't do the enamelling type on my jug, can anyone please explain the differences between the two types of enamelling to me? Many thanks :)

http://atlantaantiquegallery.com/i-4751874-moser-light-green-tumble-up.html
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, applied gilded snakes, drip trail rim
Post by: flying free on January 10, 2013, 02:03:46 PM
Just to put you all out of your misery as I know you've been running round desperately searching for a maker on my jug  ;D  ;D , or conversely, reading my ramblings and wondering what on earth I'm going on about  ;D

Very exciting news for me as my pitcher or jug  has been formally identified as Harrach this morning, by a very kind person at Harrach who spent three hours searching pattern books for me.
I'm delighted of course!  I said it was Harrach right at the beginning but it's just perfect to get a definite id.
I'm not totally clear on the enamelling yet.  That is something I'm currently looking into with a little more help given this morning  from Harrach.

thanks for all your help and thoughts etc - all very much appreciated.  I do love an id  ;D
m

Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Frank on January 14, 2013, 02:24:04 PM
I think that Moser probably translated badly and what they referred to as metallurgic (oxides) would be metallic lustring applied over the enamel in a thin coat before firing. This gives lustre/opalescence or other effect and usually causes a craquelle type effect as a side effect and this shows on your enamels. There are other ways of adding lustre to enamel if needed and so I guess this must be what they refer to as it is easily identifiable. Can you confirm with your Moser contact please.

Well done on the attribution too.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on January 15, 2013, 07:03:43 PM
I have done my best to try and identify with Moser exactly what the difference is between their enamels and mine (see copy of my message to Veronika and her message back to me below).

Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure it elucidates any more on the difference in the enamelling used or the technique, although others with more knowledge (I have no understanding of this at all) may find the further info I give below helpful.

Can I just say that despite knowing this is not one of their products, Veronika and the production team have been absolutely fantastic and taken lots of time to examine my pictures and respond to me on more than one occasion :) :)

I can say -
1)  Moser have said they did not make this pitcher/jug and I think they mean that they neither made the blank nor enamelled it.
2)  Harrach have confirmed they made the blank and Petr Novosad went through the pattern books for hours for me and has sent me copies of the various pages as well as, I believe, evidence of who the blank was made for.  I am not willing to share these but I can say it was not Moser.  I will post separately on the dates later.
 
here is my most recent message (part only) to Veronika at Moser and their lovely response in reply -
[i]Dear Veronika
I'm sorry to bother you again and thank you for your previous help on my pitcher or jug. 
I didn't understand  about your comment regarding the enamelling on the pitcher and wonder if you can help please?
What is it about the technique on the enamelling that can only be done on sodium glass please?  Is it the type of enamels that are used for example?
I've been asked by a longstanding member of the Glass Message Board if I can explain and I don't know how to...

...Thank you again for any help you can give about the enamelling technique etc.
Kind regards
m


From Moser today:
Thank you for your e-mail.
 
I asked in the production to explain me the question you require to clarify. I hope you will understand my explanationJ
 
The sodium glass has got the possibility of longer processing. The Italian glassworks (for example Murano glassworks) mostly use this. The advantage is that the time for decorating, sticking the ornaments and other decoration is longer and this kind of glass enable this.
 
The sodium potash glass which is used by Moser has got  shorter time of processing. It gets faster stiff and the docarating and enameling is not possible.
 
Should you not understand or you might have other questions feel free to contact me-
 
[/i]

Out of all my searches, I have am now down to only one other piece that I believe is the same hand as my pitcher/jug - it's a different shape, but instinctively I feel it was made by Harrach and  believe the enamelling house is the same one as mine. Link attached to this here  http://www.rubylane.com/item/568150-2422/Bohemian-Art-Glass-Vase-10.  The jug that has the drip trails on the neck that  I linked to earlier in the thread,  I believe is also Harrach but the enamelling is different to mine.  So this piece is the only one out of hundreds I have examined that I believe is a match to my jug  for both blank and enamelling.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Frank on January 15, 2013, 08:11:36 PM
Must admit their reply is of little help... it would imply Moser never enameled their own glass. The only difference I am aware of in the glass formula being the source of silica in Bohemia was not sand as elsewhere and this resulted in a much harder soda glass that was as good as lead for cutting and engraving. But I had never heard of any limitation on the use of enamels with that. Enamels are applied after the glass has been finished and fused at a temperature below the melting point of the glass.

It would be interesting to know if Moser did or did not use coats of metallic oxides over the enamels before firing as is clearly done with yours. But did Harrach and Moser use different metal??? I doubt it... were Moser using lead by the time that your jug was made.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on January 15, 2013, 08:28:28 PM
Two things
firstly I just wanted to add to my long post just above Frank's, that both the jug with drips from the neck that I linked to, and the vase with the bird and the blossom and branches with the tooled applied rim that I linked to above, are a flattened oval in shape i.e not as deep as they are wide - this is the same as my jug which also has a flattened oval shape base

Frank, I think the only point that they have made, to be honest, is that the glass they use is not the type of glass where you could successfully add drip trails and snakes etc.  The good thing about that point is that I see many many jugs and vases that have these applied glass bits on them, id'd as Moser.  What it tells me, based on the information Moser have given, is that some of them might be enamelled by Moser, but the blanks definitely will not have been made by them as they glass they use is not conducive to successfully being able to attach applied decoration in this type of form. 

With regard the enamelling, I'm afraid I don't think they really covered that point, or at least I did not understand if they did. 
On the other hand, I've not yet come across a piece they have done where I can be sure the mark is definitely a Moser mark, that has the same type of enamel as my jug, not one, apart from the tumble up I linked to, and that does not show a picture of the mark on the listing. 
All the enamelled pieces that have their signature, have enamel that is outlined in some way.  So it could be that they just did not use the enamel products used on my pitcher or on the vase I linked to which enable enamels to be put on without an outline to 'contain' the enamel section.  Which must be necessary for some reason?  This is all supposition on my part as I don't understand enamels.  But I can;'t fathom any other reason why each section of enamel would need to be outlined, but on my jug this is not the case. 

BTW, you know the jug I linked to a couple of posts up, that has the bird on, that has been attributed to Moser but no sig or reference to be seen ...the bird has crazing on the enamel.  I've seen that jug or similar elsewhere id'd as Moser as well.  Does any one know if it is in the Baldwin book please? just as a matter of curiosity :)
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Frank on January 15, 2013, 10:12:28 PM
At its simplest enamel is finely ground coloured glass that is fused to the surface of glass. There is a lot more to the chemistry and exactly how the form of the enamel is when ready for use by the enameler.

It can be used as a paint for brushing or spraying on. It can be used as an ink, for silk screen printing or lithography and in the latter case printed usually to a transfer tissue for application to the glass. The fluid carrier can be something that dries fast or slow depending on purpose so it is not necessary to have a border to fill as colours will not necessarily blend at joins but that is also an enamel technique.

Once applied it needs to be heated to a fusing temperature, again complex area of the technology. Heating will cause the enamel to fuse into a ´loose´ sticky mass and also onto the surface of the glass, it can also cause colour changes and with appropriate medium cause the enamel to swell up to a thickened result. The enamel is not heated enough to cause it to melt into glass again hence it cannot be fully transparent... although this is done with enamels in jewellery.

Other colours than can not be gotten easily with glass can be mixed with pigments but these are tricky to fire. Metallic oxides can be added either for metallic decorations, surface effects or to change the appearance of enamel colours. In general the metals will bond tightly but not fuse and will be subject to wear through handling.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: azelismia on January 15, 2013, 10:39:18 PM
the Baldwin book is full of mistakes and not really to be trusted except for in spots where the piece is signed. Harrach made glass like this in direct competition with August st Jean. They even copied AJ  work directly. There are examples in the Harrach book. I didn't see anything like this at the moser factory and there is nothing like this in the book from the Moser factory. I do not think they made any glass like this.

Riedel, Harrach, Sevres, Galle and August St Jean are the players I am aware of. (and possibly Stevens and Williams)
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on January 15, 2013, 11:11:16 PM
Thank you both for your replies :)
I'm going to reply in dribs and drabs as I have just lost a whole post infuriatingly

Frank, firstly to answer a question you posted a couple of posts back ( I have used Truitt's Collectible Bohemian Glass 1880-1940 page 90/91 as a reference)

'It would be interesting to know if Moser did or did not use coats of metallic oxides over the enamels before firing as is clearly done with yours. But did Harrach and Moser use different metal??? I doubt it... were Moser using lead by the time that your jug was made.'

My jug was made by Harrach in 1878/1879.  It's a significant date because 1878 was the year of the World Exposition in Paris and was where Auguste Jean won medals for his applied glass pieces iirc. This is many years before Moser acquired approval to build a glass manufacturing facility which was in 1893.  Moser acquired a license to operate a refinery in 1857.  He used blanks from various glass houses most notably Meyr's and Harrach to decorate until he started his own glassworks.

I cannot answer about what metal was used and whether it was the same as Harrach, however with regards to this, something interesting caught my eye in the book page 90-
Where Moser have said in their reply that the glass they use is not the type of glass that applied decoration can be applied to (eg.I believe they mean the snakes and drips on my jug), it says in Truitt's
'At the world exposition in Paris in 1900, Moser won a silver medal for his engraved, transparent glass, which shaded from clear to various colours - green, purple, topaz, or yellow.  In addition to his shaded wares, the company also introduced vases and drinking glasses decorated with hot applied flowers and fruits.  This type of glassware remained popular through the 1920's and marked Moser's departure from the luxury engraved glass of the 1870s.' (my underlining to illustrate the point that they did use a hot applied decoration) ??? ??? and of course they did apply acorns didn't they?
more to follow but don't want to lose this post again :)
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on January 15, 2013, 11:47:59 PM
following on :)
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain the enamelling process for me.  I really appreciate it and it helps to get a better understanding of some of the intricacies of how it is done.

I think I  can understand and see what you mean , re' the use coats of metallic oxides over the enamels before firing as is clearly done with yours. '  do you mean you can see this has been used because of the crackling on the surface of the insects? If so, that was why I commented on the bird enamelled on the jug I linked to ( not my jug) as that jug is attributed as Moser. 

Alisa thank you :)  can I just check, was your response in relation to this jug I questioned please?
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/8492711
or was it a comment regarding makers of pieces similar to my jug?

I've found similar applied glass pieces from all the makers  you mention but must also add:
 E Leveille where there are pieces in a museum in France (can't recall which one)that iirc were given by him
Clichy - reference Le Genie Verrier de l'Europe Cappa - page 200
Gabriel Argy-Rousseau (possibly?) - unsigned piece reference Le Genie Verrier de l'Europe Cappa - page 165

I don't think we've got to the bottom of any of the questions which were -
Did Moser use metallic oxides over their enamelling?
How is Moser's glass different to Harrach
Why would the make up of Moser glass preclude them from being able to apply glass form decoration
Why would it preclude them from being able to apply enamels such as those on my jug.
It's possible there is a language misunderstanding on both parts of course :) and information may be being lost in translation.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on January 16, 2013, 12:35:21 AM
And just to add for clarity :)
My pitcher/jug was made by Harrach and I don't believe from the information I've been given, that it was enamelled by Moser.
 Moser have confirmed they did not make the jug nor decorate it.
 Harrach have confirmed they made it.
Moser have said that the metal they used for their blanks was such that they could not apply glass decoration such as that on my jug i.e. snakes and drips - we are discussing why they might not have been able to do that.
Neither company have claimed it for the enamelling, Moser have said it definitely was not them, Harrach have not confirmed it was not them but have given me information of the company this was made for (not Moser).
Moser have said they could not do enamelling like this - we are discussing why they might not have been able to do so but I've not been able to get enough information from Moser to clarify this.  It might be that I am not asking the right questions or that technical information is getting lost in translation both ways.
:)
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: azelismia on January 16, 2013, 01:39:08 AM
I was talking in generalities about this kind of glass. (glass that looked like this, not hot applied in general) I talk in generalities a lot.

I know Moser has a historian that sometimes answers emails. I am not sure about the knowledge base of the modern workers there for historic glass, especially pre 1895. I think maybe the difference was pre 1895 they were just a refinery. they had no hot shop. after 1895 they did have a hot shop so they could apply things to teh glass that required the glass to be hot still.

If they did do something like this they'd have had to have bought the blank including the salamander or whatever. I know Harrach did sell decorated pieces sometimes to refiners.






Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on January 16, 2013, 09:24:35 AM
Hi thanks for clarifying which you were referring to :)

yes the historian was the first person to look at the jug before I knew it was made by Harrach, and this was their response:

'I have forwarded these pictures to the Moser historian who informed me that this glass jug was not produced by Moser glassworks as the design and way of manufactoring do not correspond to the Moser production. This glass piece was decorated by a metallurgical technique which is only possible with sodium glass. This vase seems to be produced before the year 1930. Unfortunately we cannot determinate in which glassworks this glass jug was produced.'

Whilst I understand what you mean that from 1893 when they started their own glass making factory they should have been able to make glass with hot applied decoration...and indeed in Truitt's it says they did (reference my quote above), their second email response( see below - it was a response after I had told them it was made by Harrach and gave them the date it was made), seems to make clear they did not. And also makes clear that the enamelling used on my jug was not possible at their glassworks :

'The sodium glass has got the possibility of longer processing. The Italian glassworks (for example Murano glassworks) mostly use this. The advantage is that the time for decorating, sticking the ornaments and other decoration is longer and this kind of glass enable this.
 
The sodium potash glass which is used by Moser has got  shorter time of processing. It gets faster stiff and the docarating and enameling is not possible.
 
'

This is obviously different to what they say in Truitt's.  I also wonder how they applied the acorns for example then?

I've seen the patterns for my jug and I understand it was made with the snakes and drips on the rim applied.  These are actually on the pattern for the jug. 

m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: azelismia on January 16, 2013, 10:37:01 AM
that glass was before 1895. before they had their own glass shop. it was from Harrach most likely.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on January 28, 2013, 07:41:01 PM
Hi Azelismia

the glass was from Harrach...Petr has confirmed the pattern no and sent me the scans from the book - I posted info earlier in the thread :)
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 24, 2013, 02:27:21 PM
Don't worry m I'm not stalking you on glassmessages....I'm trying to reseach a vase and I came across this one which could be by the same artist as yours (so pleased you managed to id it in the end) ...in amongst the leaves is an enormous insect....

http://pinterest.com/pin/225743000042376639/
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on March 24, 2013, 03:26:25 PM
Hi and thanks  for still remembering as I still don't know who enamelled it.
The one you link to is a lovely Emile Galle vase - if you click on that picture it takes you to one of my favourite sites for looking at gorgeous glass.
I'd love if it had been Galle but I'm sure it's not :)
thanks again for keeping an eye out.  I appreciate it :)
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 29, 2013, 08:36:18 AM
Ooopps...sorry....thanks for ID !

I have found this (still reseaching my vase) looks like it might be the same hand....

http://katalog.auktionshaus-wendl.com/de/cmd/d/o/119.72-2756/auk/72/p/1/

Cheers, Mike.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on March 30, 2013, 11:19:50 AM
thank you Mike :)
I'll investigate some more with the link to possible Haida and the name I was given by Harrach for whom the jug was made.
Many thanks!
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on May 20, 2013, 08:48:13 AM
I'm wondering if it's possible this was enamelled by Oskar Jummel for Fritz Heckert?  I came across a few pieces again today page 14 two glasses and page 15 some vases.  They seem similar in the way they've been enamelled although the only similarity in decoration is on the right hand one of the two glasses.
http://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2012-2w-zelasko-heckert-passau-2012-buch.pdf
Any thoughts much appreciated.
thanks for looking :)
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on May 21, 2014, 08:44:58 AM
This has been solved!!!!!  - Thanks to some investigative work  ;D and Pamela helping me on another thread here
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,56503.msg320334.html#msg320334 (see full details below)

I had always believed my jug was made by Harrach as I said at the beginning of the thread and
many months ago, Harrach confirmed they indeed made my jug and sent me copies of the pattern book for it. 
But they did not enamel the jug.
They also told me who they made it for but were unable to give me any further information on that company.
I believed the company they made it for enamelled my jug.

But I had not been able to reconcile the information Harrach gave me with any further sources because the only source that mentioned that particular company the jug was made for, was the book Truitt's Bohemian Glass  1880-1940.
And Truitt's referenced that company as being a glass Manufacturer
In my head I could not reconcile that Harrach would make a piece of glass for another manufacturer at that time i.e. 1878 when I  know the jug was made (caveat - obviously I understand that makers did make for other companies who then refined it or not, or maybe sold it as their own into the market, but the logistics just didn't sit right with me for some reason). 

I believed my jug was enamelled by the company Harrach made it for.  And despite searching thousands of enamelled pieces I had not been able to match the enamelling on my jug with any other pieces or makers/refiners/enamellers I knew of, i.e Moser, Fritz Heckert, Oskar Jummel, Auguste Jean etc etc. 
There was always something not quite right about the enamelling, it just didn't match mine.  So far I have  only found one possible exception, that being a piece that I am sure was also made by Harrach but the enameller/decorator not known.
But I still couldn't reconcile Harrach making the glass for another glass maker if you see what I mean. Something didn't add up.

Finally I found  another reference in Czech, for the company Harrach had told me the glass was made for!!  See link to another thread where I needed to check my translation/understanding of the information was correct.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,56503.msg320334.html#msg320334

This solves my query as to why a piece of glass I own, made in the 1878 by Harrach, was made for Clemens Rasch. 
I had believed from what I'd read in Truitt's and up to finding this article, that Clemens Rasch were a manufacturer of glass (which  they were, for most of the period the Truitt's book covers(1880-1940) onwards).
But from the newly found article it appears that up until 1885 Clemens Rasch were a glass refinery,  and were not producing their own glass until 1885.

So my jug was made by Harrach in 1878, and enamelled by the refinery Clemens Rasch!!!
 
Who the actual enameller was is a mystery, however I would say he/she was  a master enameller. It explains why the enamelling is so different to any of the other pieces I've come across and why I've never been able to match it.

One very happy glass owner here  ;D

m



For expediency, here is the information from the other thread link:
Quote request from me –
‘I'm interested in this particular glass house connected with a piece I own that I know was made for them by another maker.
I've used google translate (the second link should give an English translate version) but I just want to be sure that I have understood it correctly.  This glasshouse is listed as a manufacturer of glass in Truitt's, not only a refiner/decorator of glass.  Does this information confirm that this is the case please?

http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/mista/index.php?pg=obnoldd

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/mista/index.php%3Fpg%3Dobnoldd&prev=/search%3Fq%3DClemens%2BRasch%2B%2526%2BSohn

Thank you in advance for any help, which is much appreciated.

m’

Quote response from Pamela -
‘Unable to help with Czech however the first link you gave is in German language and the translation is not too bad.
If you are looking for Clemens Rasch:

""Im Jahre 1830 errichteten hier die Gebrüder Görner eine Glasraffinerie, die später in den Besitz von Franz Pelikan überging. 1855 wurde sie von der Firma Clemens Rasch und Sohn, die 30 Jahre später hier eine eigene Glashütte baute, übernommen und vergrössert.

 In 1830 the brothers built here Goerner a glass refinery, which later passed into the possession of Francis pelican. In 1855 it was taken over and enlarged by the company Clemens Rasch and son here own glassworks built 30 years later. ""

"""Die Glashütte Clemens Rasch wurde nach dem Kriege in den staatlichen Betrieb Jablonecké sklárny eingegliedert und arbeitete bis 1966.

The glassworks Clemens Rasch was incorporated after the war in the state operating Jablonecké sklárny and worked until 1966."""

Here are two postcards from Ullrichsthal:
1905      1936 

Hope this helps   ’


Quote conclusion from me -
‘Pamela thank you 

I'm interested particularly in the mid 1800 period.
So as I understand it, it seems that Clemens Rasch and Son took over a Glass refinery (not manufactury) in 1855.
But then in 1885 (30 yrs later), built their own glassworks (I understand this to mean they were able to produce their own glass from that point on).
This solves my query as to why a piece of glass I own, made in the 1870's by another maker, was made for Clemens Rasch. 
I had believed from what I'd read in Truitt's and up to finding this article, that CR were a manufacturer of glass(which they were for the period the Truitt's book covers onwards), but it seems they were not producing their own glass until 1885 then.

Clearly at the point my piece was made, Clemens Rasch  were still a refinery 


It seems we may have the answer as to who enamelled my gigantic jug with insects on      Very happy.  Thank you.
 ’
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Greg. on May 21, 2014, 08:59:19 AM
Congratulations M, some fine sleuthing.  :)
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on May 21, 2014, 09:13:15 AM
Thanks  :D  I'm so happy!
I can't believe it's only taken 18months to work this out  ;D
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Greg. on May 21, 2014, 09:22:21 AM
Those long ID's are always the most rewarding  :)
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: fontanazul on May 24, 2014, 11:13:32 PM

these insects(and plant) are really well painted.
Perhaps more important than determining the factory, is to know the name and work of this "Tiziano" enamel.
Really a master brush  8)
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on May 24, 2014, 11:29:10 PM
Thanks fontanazul :)
yes I agree

'So my jug was made by Harrach in 1878, and enamelled by the refinery Clemens Rasch!!!
 
Who the actual enameller was is a mystery, however I would say he/she was  a master enameller. It explains why the enamelling is so different to any of the other pieces I've come across and why I've never been able to match it.
'

I would love to know who the artist was.
It dates to 1878/1879. 
I will take some  more pictures tomorrow and try and get some clear close-ups.
Unfortunately there is very little information on the company Clemens Rasch at all and nothing from that period.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on May 24, 2014, 11:57:53 PM
fontanazul. do you have any information on the type of enamel that might have been used ?
It's curious because I can't find another piece that has this level of detail in the colours of the enamel, nor that has the 'crackle' effect.  So I wonder what enamels the artist used and whether enamels were combined with another medium.  Whatever they were and whatever medium used would have needed to be re-fired to fuse.  It reminds me of the crackle effect seen on very old oil paintings :) 
m

Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: fontanazul on May 25, 2014, 12:44:33 AM
I do not know everything about the techniques of enamelled glass.
In ancient paintings crackle is usually associated with the presence of black color (black oil is unstable).
What I can say is that the artist who made this decoration was not a means craftsman. The treatment is very pictorial, and classically trained.
Unlike oil painting, get those nuances with the technique of enamel (similar to ceramic case) should not be frequent.
But mostly they are endowed with the "grace"
*any insect is similar
no leaf is the same.
no flower is repeated

Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on May 25, 2014, 08:46:55 PM
I have attached some close ups.
The first one is my favourite because of the way the wings have been painted to show their transparency.
The second also a favourite because of the 'cloudy' way the colours have been applied to give the overall effect.
The use of colour is so intricate and delicate and in so much detail.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: johnphilip on June 04, 2014, 07:13:27 PM
AMAZING long time since my flaber has been so gasted , love it what skill .
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on June 04, 2014, 08:37:22 PM
Thank you John :)

m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Frank on June 08, 2014, 12:51:24 PM
The crackling which is caused by shrinkage during firing and here it must have been intentionally used as it only appears where shape are wanted and not in other parts with same colouring.

Quote from: from Glass-study.com
(1907 advert and reference)
CRISTALLERIES D’ULLRICHSTHAL, Maison fondée en 1830
CLEMENS RASCH & Fils, à Ullrichsthal (Bohême)
Articles d’Éclairage, de Luxe & de Fantaisie
en toutes couleurs, unis, décorés, taillés ou gravés, etc.
Représentant: E. J. CHARPENTIER, 82, Rue d’Hauteville, PARIS
Perhaps that their main product were Crystal and lighting related.

In 1878 they were also listed in Meistersdorf - A new style of frosted pink vases on an opal inner coat, ground in parts to show the opal coating, and engraved upon the pink outer coat. This style is said to have been recently patented.
However Ullrichstal and Meistersdorf were neighbouring towns and the Josef Müller refinery (Muller & Friederich) is listed as Ullrichstal-Meistersdorf. Was he the same person as Dr. J. H. Muller, who worked with Chance Bros from 1940-49, dates would fit if he was Jewish.
Note another crystal maker in Ullrichstal = Muller (Hermann), Ulrichsthal, bei Steinschönau. Which could simply be another company name at the same glassworks.

From elsewhere. A Glasrabrik Ullrichstal appears on a postcard dated 1936. So perhaps they made your entire piece.
Meistersdorf had a glassworks in 1820 and 13 refineries in 1842 by 1900 most of the population were German working in the glass industry, makers, decorators and merchants. 7% Czech in 1930.
Major families Heller, Hegenbarth, Schlegel, Fritsch, Gürtler, Fiedler, Hackel, Mahnel, Müller, Werne.
Ullrichsthal was established in 1764 today it is named Nový Oldřichov. About 60% of its workers were glass painters or cutters, the rest in transport or agriculture.

Most of the Germans were expelled after 1945 but the best glassworkers were kept.

Gives you some pointers I hope. To save reinventing the wheel you could contact relevant researchers here:
http://www.olypen.com/tinkers/steinschonau/Researchers.htm

Steinschonau was in the same area. Glass school established c1880. Area towns are

Meistersdorf, Nieder-Preschkau, Ober-Preschkau, Parchen, Steinschönau, Ullrichsthal.

Glass was the main industry in this area by 1800 (started in 1600s) with 75% of the population involved. Finishers and Makers were separated and until well after 1800 most of the glassmaking was done in the forest, relocating as forest was cleared. Which is one reason that finding individuals is tough. But it was dominated by about 60 families so lots of names repeat from branches of the same family doing similar work.

Some excellent background reading: A July Holiday in Saxony, Bohemia, and Silesia by Walter White
 http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42539
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on June 10, 2014, 11:38:23 PM
Thank you Frank
I love that article yes :) a lovely piece of reading.
I'm snowed under at the mo but will do some more investigating using the leads you've given and come back if I have anything else to go on.  Thanks so much for taking the time to post the information. Much appreciated.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 25, 2014, 02:01:41 AM
Just wanted to add this link ... apologies if it has been discussed above already  :)

[Mod: Mike's link is no longer active for the correct item. Please see the direct Ruby Lane link posted later.]

The petals of the flowers remind me of the wings on the insects, almost translucent  . The vase is on the same scale  (approx.) as the jug and seems to have the same coloured handles , with detail at the top of the handle (but in white instead of gold and a different design) . It might be by Harrach (as stated) and might be by the same artist (just a guess here by me  ;)) but it has been dated, c1880 . Again, superb enamelling ! Don't think there could be many people capable of producing this quality of work in c1880 near to Haida (Novy Bor) or Steinschonau (Kamenicky Senov), it's such a small region  . The way some of the ivy catches the light (around the back of the vase) is so true to life and almost three dimensional . You have to look at all the photos in detail to appreciate it  . :D

I don't think this link takes you directly to the vase but it is the 11th down on the left, ' Large Moser or Harrach vase , $600 , GlassCollector.  Ta, Mike.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on July 25, 2014, 08:30:41 PM
Hi Mike  :)  thanks again for your persevering which is much appreciated.

The link you gave has now disappeared (I had a quick look last night).  I think that vase might have been made by Harrach.
I can't explain totally why, but I wasn't convinced by the enamelling being the same to be honest.  I've seen a few that I thought might have come from the same stable as that enamelling with those lovely pale odd greeny leaves etc, but none are quite the same (to my eye anyway, I could be completely wrong of course)for some reason.  The detail isn't quite as detailed, the type of enamel/enamel effect used on my insects doesn't 'appear' to be quite the same.  That said, those photos weren't that brilliant so not being able to see very close up perhaps makes it difficult for me to judge. 
I've no time at the moment to devote to some good old searches, but I will try and find that piece again and see if I can find others to compare.  Thanks again!
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 25, 2014, 09:26:56 PM
Cheers m ,

Here it is again ! [Mod: see below]

It is excellent work ! I know what you mean and I see what you say ... ;)

Now you have to click on 'refine search' and then type Harrach Moser in the search box. Twelve items appear and it's the second one down on the left.

[Mod: Google search link removed. Please see the direct Ruby Lane link in the next post]

Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on July 25, 2014, 11:05:41 PM
Thanks :) I couldn't get a direct link to put on here either unfortunately.
I've had another look at the enamelling and I don't think it's a match in terms of artist.  The enamelling has many similarities with other Harrach pieces I've seen though although I don't know who decorated them either.  My feelings are that if the glass were mine, I'd be searching Harrach as the maker.
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 26, 2014, 12:15:49 AM
The problem is, finding examples with insects ...it's a shame there isn't a depiction of a bee pollinating one of the flowers on this vase !

I  think the crackling on your enamelling might be due to added layers of enamel where shading was required, increasing the thickness and also the possibility of  shrinkage... but this is only my thought.

I will carry on searching  ! Might pop-in in a few months time !

 You have done so well in your research and it's such a great topic ! 

Ta , Mike.
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: KevinH on July 26, 2014, 02:09:28 PM
For the example vase that Mike referred to, see the direct link to Ruby Lane at:
http://www.rubylane.com/item/1156980-moservase01/Large-Moser-Harrach-Decorated-Vase
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: Baked_Beans on July 27, 2014, 11:48:59 AM
Thanks for sorting that out Kevin ...it is a splendid vase.

I found this vase with some amazing enamelled butterflies , but the style might be different and it    is later, for Heinrich Ullrich , enameller unknown.

http://www.canterburymuseum.com/collections-and-research/experiences/real-design.aspx
 
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on October 04, 2014, 11:14:46 AM
Mike and Kev, thank you for your input :) - apologies for the delay in replying but life has taken over glass for a while.

I'm no further forward on the enameller so nothing new to report.

Mike I just wanted to clarify that one of the reasons I lean towards Harrach on that vase is the way the handles are bent/made and the thickness of them.  It seems like a 'Harrach quirk' to me (but could be wrong,  just gut instinct :) ).
m
Title: Re: Gigantic 13"x 9" enamel jug, insects, snakes, drip trail rim. ID = Harrach
Post by: flying free on October 21, 2017, 10:42:06 AM
On the topic of the detail on my jug and extremely high quality of the enamelling/artist, I will probably never find the artist , but I came across a close up of a Galle enamelled bowl just now and thought I'd show both the enamelling on my jug (photo attached of close up insect) and a link to the close up of the Galle bowl insect.

Remember the insects on my jug are tiny 2.5cm or 1" or so long, and presumably they are similar on the Galle bowl.  Very different enamelling styles in terms of structure of insect and detail of outline whereby the Galle insect has an outline on each segment and quite 'simple' legs by comparison to the detail on mine. As on mine,  Galle does also use very beautiful colour combinations on his enamelling:

https://leverreetlecristal.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/v34.jpg

The quality of the enamelling on the jug is stupendous in it's detail and colouration.
If you copy  my photo onto word and view it in larger zoom, you can see all the colourful detail of the colours on the antennae and legs by comparison.  Incredible.