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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Nadine on April 26, 2006, 01:09:41 PM

Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on April 26, 2006, 01:09:41 PM
Hello again,

yesterday I was succesfull at a auction.

I´ve won a Lot of 4 Paperweights:


There are 2 Baccarat, 1 Clichy and one ??????????

Is the other one (top right corner) probably a Val St. Lambert or a french one ?

What do you think ?

As soon as I get the weights I will post more pictures.

Have a nice rest of the week.

All the best
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Leni on April 26, 2006, 02:00:43 PM
Brilliant, Nadine!  :D   

As for that mystery weight ..... I have the strangest feeling that I'm seeing tadpoles again!  :shock:  :oops:  Have a look at the earlier thread here,4975.0.html  Do you think the central cane with the white 'tadpole' in red looks similar to the outer ring of 'tadpoles' in that weight?  In which case, could yours be a St Mande?

Anyway, I'd love to see more pictures of your mystery one on its own, please!   :shock:
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: RAY on April 26, 2006, 04:58:00 PM
the mystery weight looks like a st louis with a high dome
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on April 26, 2006, 07:54:27 PM
Like you I´m also very curios about the origin of this weight.

First I thought it could be a Clichy, as I saw some roses without petals in the 2005 and 1991 PCA Bulletin, but then I thought more it could be a Val. St. Lambert, but was irritaded about the torsades on the side, which have the french national colors.
Probably you are right with St. Mande as the “tadpole” really looks very similar from this view of the weight, but probably it is a portrait or a silhouette from St. Louis.

Another mystery is the cane with the 5 red dots on the right side of the weight.  I saw this cane some months ago in another antique weight, but I have forgotten where.

Tomorrow evening we all knew more. I hope the traffic is not to terrific as I travel to Bruxxels to pick up the 4 weights.

Have all a very nice evening.

Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Leni on April 26, 2006, 08:07:14 PM
The yellow and orange shades are confusing to me.  They aren't very common at all in Clichy, rare but not unheard of in St Mande, more likely in St Louis  :?   If we end up settling for 'Bohemian' again, I'm gonna be mad  :x  :roll:  More pics needed asap, please, Nadine!   :lol:  

Have a good journey   :D
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Leni on April 26, 2006, 09:10:14 PM
Had another think.  Those 'barbers pole' red-white-and-blue twists around the edge ......  I'm leaning towards Val St. Lambert!  :D
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on April 27, 2006, 04:14:02 AM
Quote from: Leni
Had another think.  Those 'barbers pole' red-white-and-blue twists around the edge ......  I'm leaning towards Val St. Lambert!  :D

Yes, that will make sense. The colors must not stand for the french flag, they are also the typical "barbers pole" colors (which are also used in some Clichy weights). All in all I think it´s more Val St. Lambert than Clichy or St. Louis.

This evening I post more pictures :)

Have a nice day!

Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: mjr on April 27, 2006, 07:51:04 AM
Nadine's mystery weight.  Here are some more pictures.

top (
side (
base (

Nadine - you weren't the only one interested. When I saw the big picture, I did the "clichy, baccarat, baccarat, er um ?".  I got them to send me better pictures of the mystery weight which I guessed was probably French and possibly St Louis.

You got them for a good price.
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Leni on April 27, 2006, 09:04:54 AM
Pity the one of the top is slightly out of focus  :?  but from the others I'm still sticking with Val St. Lambert!   The latticino strips laid from side to side; the 'barbers pole' twists (which twist to the right  :shock: ) laid low down around the sides; what appears to be a white 'cabbage rose' in the centre of the circle of white / peachy pastry-mold stars to the left of the side picture - yep!   I'm sticking with VSL! :shock:    

(Now watch me get 'shot down in flames', when Nadine posts the next pictures!   :lol: :roll:  :wink: )
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on April 27, 2006, 09:05:21 PM
Sorry for getting back so late.

The traffic on the way back home was terrible. It took about 8hours from Brussels to Stuttgart. In the morning I only need 5 hours.

As I made a little shopping stopover in Masmelechen Village, which took also some minutes  :lol: I was at home 10 minutes ago.

Tomorrow morning I will pickup 2 weights in the Bodensee Area and in the afternoon I bring one of the Baccarat weights to another german auction house  :wink:

All the four 4 are really fantastic and I´m very happy, that I´ve won the lot!
One Baccarat is Magnum-Size, the other one measures nearly 3",  the Clichy is a Miniatur and the mystery weight also is a magnum one.

It´s really very beautiful and I never saw such canes before.
I try to make the best pictures I can and post them tomorrow, when I´m back home.

Many greetings
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on April 27, 2006, 09:34:44 PM
P.S. When I send my absentee bid to the auction house I only calculated the price of the 2 Baccarats and the Clichy.
But after studying with a magnifying glass, I think that the mystery weight probably is the real star of this lot  :lol:
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Leni on April 28, 2006, 07:15:59 AM
Quote from: "Nadine"
I think that the mystery weight probably is the real star of this lot  :lol:

I would have to say I agree - even on the strength of the pictures we've seen so far!   :shock:   Lucky you!  :D
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on April 28, 2006, 10:35:21 AM

while I was at the Bodensee Ronny took some pictures of the mystery weight.

You can find them here:

The pictures are in "bigger" size to show you more details, hope this is ok.

After studying the Article from Paul Dunlop in the 2005 PCA-Bulletin I´m not sure if this weight will be a (late) Clichy or a Pantin, or probably VSL ?
I´ll send the pictures also to Paul and let you know his oppinion as soon as I get an answer.

Have all a very nice friday!

Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: RAY on April 28, 2006, 05:41:05 PM
hi Nadine, what's the base like
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: mjr on April 28, 2006, 08:30:27 PM

See my earlier posting - I put a picture of the base on
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: RAY on April 28, 2006, 08:51:42 PM
thanks Martin, the base looks polished flat no basle ring,
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on April 28, 2006, 09:02:14 PM
Hello Ray,
yes you are right, the base is flat, polished, without a ring.

Thanks Martin for the pictures, on my pictures the base is really hard to see.

I think it´s not St. Louis or VSL.
A possibility for Clichy are the parallel Latticinios at the base and the Mini-Roses which a also explained by Paul Hollister in his Encyclopedia of Paperweigths, but normaly they are not set in Canes like in this weight.

Paul Dunlop wrote in his PCA-Article, that some weights, which were identifyied as Clichy in the past, are now attributed to Pantin so I´m very curious about his meaning.

Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: RAY on April 28, 2006, 10:00:54 PM
how about a baccarat dupont
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: KevinH on April 29, 2006, 11:20:29 AM
I look forward to a future PCA Bulletin article about this weight - it just has to be submitted as an article as it is a very interesting weight. :D

I have no firm ideas myself but I would say:

1. Ray - I don't think this is a Baccarat Dupont

2. The "tosade" is made of small lengths of "barber pole" cane, unlike (most) VSL torsades which were continous. This is a hint at "no" for VSL.

3. There are (at least) 3 different shades of bright yellow in the canes. I have not yet located any regular antique French weights with that sort of use of yellows, but VSL did use bright yellows - and so did the Bohemians. This is a hint at "yes" for VSL or Bohemian.

4. The majority of canes are very intricate and seem (to me) to show features similar to all of French, Bohemian and Belgian. This is a hint at "confused" for any attribution.
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on April 29, 2006, 11:55:27 AM
Hello KevH,

some Pantin weights with Millefiori you can find at page 24, (Figure 19, 20, 21), page 25 (Figure 22) and page 26 (Figure 23) of the 2005 PCA Bulletin. There you also find the very interesting Article from Paul Dunlop.

Figure 5 on Page 20 has the same parallel filigree twists, like my mystery weight. The rose shown in Figure 9b is also very similar to the one in my new weight.

The miniature Roses in the yellow canes may be a hint for Clichy but the flat polished base without a basal ring could be more a hint for Pantin.

I saw some VSL weights, but they never had such great canes like this weight.

The shape of the weight is very unusual for bohemian pieces, also his size and weight, as it is very heavy. At least, the canes are too perfect for bohemian weights.

I´m very unsure between Clichy or Pantin. Hopefully Paul Dunlop can help :)

Have a nice Saturday!

Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: KevinH on April 29, 2006, 12:40:25 PM
Thanks Nadine,

I have had another - and closer - look at the 2005 PCA Bulletin article by Paul Dunlop and I can see that there are some compelling clues pointing towards a Pantin attribution for weights that were previously thought to be "Late Clichy".

I suppose the thing that made me unsure about all this was the title for the article:
"Late Clichy", or What? A New Proposed Source of These Paperweights.
If a title states "Proposed Source", then I take it that the details are still unproven - even if the evidence as described is quite compelling.

( The way I read the article was influenced by my own ongoing investigations - such as the still-unproven facts of where and when the "Frank Eisner" flower weights were made. [See the message in the Ysart Glass forum] )

It's also interesting that in his article Paul himself raises a point of caution in suggesting the possibility of Pantin lampwork being encased by another factory. Also, he said of some millefiori weights (with coloured grounds), that might have Pantin canes, that they do look more like VSL.

This is why I really do think that as well as asking Paul Dunlop for his views, you should offer the pics and details of your weight for a future PCA Bulletin article. What we really need to see is your weight compared to the others that Paul has mentioned, but not illustrated, that could also have possible Pantin canes.

In the meantime, I would encourage everyone interested in this item to take personal research copies of the excellent photos provided and to let us know of any other examples you find that might assist this research(actual weights or images in books, catalogues and so forth).

It's a super weight and I wish I had it :D
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Leni on April 29, 2006, 07:33:45 PM
Quote from: "KevH"
2. The "tosade" is made of small lengths of "barber pole" cane, unlike (most) VSL torsades which were continous. This is a hint at "no" for VSL.

Kulles describes VSL 'barber pole' canes as being clipped off in short strips, with a little 'flick' or hook at the end.  He also describes them as being set low down around the centre of the weight, barely visible when viewed from directly above - as in this weight.
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on April 29, 2006, 07:52:47 PM
Whilst Paul Dunlop in his article spoke about „late“ Clichy weights.
Paul Hollister wrote on page 126 of his “Encyclopedia of Paperweights”: The earliest Clichy rose centers are cylinders whose cross-section resembles a slice of lemon, or rods with a cross design.
Fig.58 in his book also shows a Clichy early garlandes example with a white rose without petals, which is very similar to the rose in my weight.
The picture is not the best, but the other canes also look like the ones in my weight.
BUT, the canes also look like the canes in the PCA article from Paul Dunlop.

The parallel filigree twist are typically for Clichy.

Now, the question is: Early or late Clichy, or Pantin ?

For VSL the weight is too heavy I think, and when I compare the shape (slightly tapered on top), it´s also uncommon for VSL.

It´s very difficult to confirm this weight for sure. I also will send a message to Larry Selman, probably he can help.
All in all I think, it´s the rarest weight I own :)

Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on May 01, 2006, 09:56:03 AM
Hello everybody,

yesterday I´ve studied some Books and found some things which will probably help to find out the origin of this weight.

I´m sure, that it is not Bohemian or Baccarat (Dupont) as no canes from this makers matches with the canes in this weight. Also I think it´s not St. Louis as I also don´t find any matching canes. At least, it´s not Venezian, English, American or Chinese. Let me know, if you think I´m wrong with this.

The remaining factorys are: early/late Clichy, St. Mande, Val. St. Lambert, Pantin.

The canes in my mystery weight don´t match any of the canes shown in the book from Kulles. And also there are no similar canes in other weights I saw. Only one type of the 3 different yellow colors in my weight looks like the yellow in 2 St. Mande weights I found, but they used this color for different Canes.
Most of the St. Mande weights, which I saw in the past had a slight striation, but this weight has absolutely no suggering etc.
No one of the known St. Mande roses are similar to the rose in this weight.
St. Mande weights have a slightly concave base and normally they don´t use this kind of design for their motifs.

So, I think it´s not St. Mande.

Val St. Lambert:
Most VSL weights have a low profile and a rather low dome (Kulles). The “barber pole” canes are set in this weight, as described in Kulles book, but they are unusual for VSL in their Design, as the “barber pole” from VSL is more filigree, means the single color stripes are much thinner and also more distorted. VSL “barber pole” canes loke often as they have a white glass rod in the middle, wriggled by blue and red (sorry again, for my bad english).

The 2 known VSL roses described and shown by Kulles have both petals. They are not similar to the white rose in my weight.
The only real hint for possible VSL are the parallel filligree twists, but they are also and more often used by Clichy, too.
After studying the canes, I have to say, that the canes in my weight are to perfect for VSL, especially the canes in the two rings around the center cane.
I found one VSL weight with small red roses, but they are even bigger than the small ones in my weight (set in the yellow canes).

All in all I tend to say, my weight is not VSL.

Normaly most known Clichy weights have a concave base, except the newel posts, which have a flat base, when they lost their stems.
Except the rose with the cross cane in the center, and the fantastic miniature roses, I found no canes from Clichy, which are similar to my mystery weight, but I must say that all canes look a little bit like the typically Clichy canes. Also the complexity and the pastel color, which is very soft reminds me on Clichy.

Another guess was, that probably canes from two different manufactures are set in this weight?

Questionable Pantin:
The Size of the mystery weight is typically for pantin, as they only made magnum sized weights. Also the shape with the high crown speaks for Pantin. I´m unsure of the base, as most known Pantin weights always have a slightly concave base. One possibility is, that they had a problem with the pontil mark as you can see a small rest of the pontil, so that the glassworker decided to make the base flat ?

Interesting is the fact, that the yellow used in many pantin flowers is exactly the same like the yellow in the canes of my weight.
Last but not least, the PCA-Article from Paul Dunlop. If  Paul is right with his thoughts, than I would say, that this weight probably also could be attributed to Pantin.

Anyway, it´s really a very rare weight, with canes never seen in any other paperweight before.

Clichy or Pantin ?[/u][/i]
To answer this question is really very difficult. But it might be very interesting regarding the history of paperweight making and, off course, also to say something about the value of the the weight.

Have all a very sunny day! :lol:


P.S. Till today I got no answer from Paul or Larry, but I will let you know, when I receive their oppinion.
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: m1asmithw8s on May 01, 2006, 11:34:08 PM
That's quite a High profile for a Val St. Lambert.
I'm not a millefiore collector but those canes look quite unusual.
A most interesting weight indeed.
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: dfernbach on May 02, 2006, 12:19:59 PM
A comment from the peanut gallery!

My mystery weight from a few weeks ago - ultimately attributed to St. Mande (I'm assuming everyone accepted that) - the clear glass had a very slight but undeniable grayish tint / haze to it that I have not seen in any of the Clichy's, St. Louis's or Baccarat's that I've seen.  I don't know if that's typical of St. Mande, and I can't tell if your weight is similar.

Also, having NEVER seen a Pantin, I don't know what their clear glass would be like.

I must say that the center cane in your weight is one of the more incredible works of art that I've seen anywhere!  Are those white points individual canes?  lampwork?  optical illusion?   :?   The 3-dimensional look is AWESOME!
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on May 05, 2006, 09:21:12 PM
Ronny again  :)

I try to visit the next meeting of the PCC, which will be held at the 10. of June in Cambridge and bring this really amazing weight with me, so that you all can take a closer look.

All the best
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: KevinH on May 05, 2006, 09:59:08 PM
It will be good to see the weight at the PCC meeting (and maybe I can get my UV lights on it, too), but it will be even better to see you again, Ronnie. It's good to have international club members visiting the meetings as well as other new and regular people.

I do hope that your youngster gets better soon and that Nadine is not too tired from also being in hospital.
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Leni on May 06, 2006, 07:46:59 AM
Wow! :shock:  Great!    :D  I'll also look forward to seeing you again in June , Ronnie.  

And 'that' weight!   :D  Can't wait!  :wink:  :roll:

Oh, and best wishes to Nadine  and your poor little one! :shock:
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on May 27, 2006, 11:01:00 PM
Thanks Leni and Kevh for your lovely words.

Today I´ve shown this weight to a collector in Baden Baden and his first words  are: "WOW, what a wonderful Clichy". As I ask him if he is sure with his thoughts and showed him the Paul Dunlop Article, he said, that this is one of the most interesting articles about Clichy/Pantin weights, which he reads in the last years and that he is not longer sure with his oppinion.

Unfortunately Paul Dunlop and Larry Selman did not respond to my message till today, so that this weight is still a miracle :)

Probably I will ask robinsonpaperweights for their oppinion.

Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on July 25, 2006, 08:40:50 AM
Hello everybody,

sorry for getting back to you so late, but we had some trouble with the health of our youngest son.
Ronny will now bring this weight with him to the PCC meeting in September.

I got a message from Paul Dunlop, here is his opinion:

This weight indeed has canes and characteristics of the "Pantin" millefiori
weights I wrote about. It also has canes from a second source I have been researching. It appears that some of these canes found their way to Val St. Lambert over the years and
it is possible that this is one of their weights. I would love to see it in person some time.
Thanks for sending me the photos.


Paul Dunlop

And Larry Selman wrote the following:

The torsade makes me think it might be Val
St. Lambert however I am not sure.

All the best,


Like said above in my oppionion there are too many things, which are very untypically for VSL. I´ve looked through many older auctions catalogs and found the following weight:

L.H. Selman Spring Auction 2004 / Lot 20:
For a bigger picture click here:

Lot 20
Antique Clichy open concentric millefiori paperweight, composed of a center cluster of seven pink and green rose canes, bordered by a turquoise and white collar, and encircled by a ring of yellow tubes, each containing eight tiny pink and pale green roses at its center. The piece includes a slightly irregular ring of eighteen pink and green roses, as well as a border garland of assorted complex canes, on clear ground. The ring of canes around the border alternate between pink cog/red and blue flower canes, blue-collared pink bull's-eye canes, and red, blue, and white blue complex flower canes, each with a tiny pink rose center. Diameter 3 5/8".

(The weight was sold for 3025$)

The yellow tubes containing eight tiny pink and pale green roses are absolutely the same like the ones in my weight.
This, the white rose and the parallel filigree twists makes me think more than ever, that it will be a very rare Clichy weight (possible Pantin).
I keep on searching for more identical canes matching to this weight :)

Have all a very nice and sunny day!


P.S. Here is the link to the pictures again:
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Leni on July 25, 2006, 09:07:14 AM
I'm so glad you posted about this again, Nadine!   :D

I missed the June PCC meeting and was really kicking myself because I had wanted to see this weight!  

I am very sorry for the health problems of your youngest - I do wish him completely better!

I am really glad Ronny will be over in September - that's a meeting I'll make sure I don't miss!  I am so longing to see this weight!    :shock:
Title: Nadine's unknown weight - Later Clichy
Post by: tropdevin on August 26, 2006, 06:50:46 AM
I think there is little doubt that the paperweight described by Nadine is a Clichy weight made after 1860.  The Pantin 'connection' is, in my view, now a blind alley.

When Paul Dunlop wrote his article suggesting that some antique French weights (which were not classic Clichy) were probably made by Pantin, I suspect that he did not know about Roland Dufrenne's book.  It is in French, which restricts readership, but is called 'La Cristallerie de Clichy'. Roland Dufrenne worked on the book with Jean Maes and Bernard Maes ( Louis-Joseph Maes founded the Clichy factory, and was the great great grandfather of Jean Maes).  Most of the book is about Clichy glass in general, but there are about 70 pages in full colour dealing with Clichy paperweights and related objects. Quite a few weights remained in the family, so there is little doubt about attribution or date.

There are two significantly different groups of canes from the two periods (1845-1860, and post 1860).  The later period weights shown have canes very similar to Nadine's weight: collapsed tube roses, cog canes with blue and white outside; simple crosses in canes, and so on.  They include very similar designs. Most of the large complex weights are on 'upset muslin', with parallel bands of latticino - like hers, and one even has a torsade (not the same colour though).

I don't think there is any need to seek a Pantin or other attribution.

And it would look good in my collection...!


Alan Thornton
Title: the paperwright is val st. lambert
Post by: THX1138 on August 26, 2006, 01:21:45 PM
George N. Kulles' excellent series of books (there are three compact, but incredibly informative volumes) touches on virtually every comment made in this thread about the "mystery" paperweight.

Kulles' books are Identifying Antique Paperweights: Millefiori, Identifying Antique Paperweights: Lampwork, and Identifying Antique Paperweights: The Less Familiar. The books, which run about 76 pages each, are rich in paperweight detail and filled with drawings and photographs.

Pages 63 - 67 in Identifying Antique Paperweights: The Less Familiar is about Val St. Lambert.

The weight in question IS Val St. Lambert. In fact, there are photographs of the same style of weight (different cane color scheme, but same millefiori ad clustering) with the diameter ribbon in the book.

The books run $25 retail in the U.S.
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Nadine on August 26, 2006, 04:35:09 PM
Hello again,

thanks Alan for your help to identify this weight.
I totally agree, that it might be a 2nd period Clichy.

@ THX1138
I have all the 3 books from G. Kulles, but the weights shown there are not comparable to this one.
Also I´ve seen the weights in the Clichy book and they are more similar to my weight.

If you have read the whole thread, you´ll see, that there are many facts who say, that this is not a VSL weight. One of the most important is, that at all VSL weights have a low profile and a rather low dome .
The weight shown at Kulles Page 65, Figure 159 has a similar design, but you can see the torsade clearly, when you are looking from above, also the canes are not similar to my weight. The Torsade shown there is a typical VSL torsade and not matching to the one in my weight.
Plus: there are 5 clusters + 1 cluster in the center, my weight only has 4 clusters + one in the center, from which the cluster in the center is more complex than in the VSL and it has 2 concentric rings (another hint for Clichy).

Last but not least, the collapsed tube roses, VSL did never make them.
Fig. 159 +164 shows the 2 only known roses, that VSL has ever made.

You can compare every VSL-Cane in Kulles´ fantastic book, no one will match to the canes in my weight.

Another fact is, that VSL weights often resemble Clichy weights, probably Kulles´ book shows a good copy of my Clichy :lol: :wink:

Have a nice weekend.


P.S. In two weeks you can see this weight at the PCC-Meeting in Cambridge  8)
Title: not a clichy
Post by: THX1138 on August 27, 2006, 12:57:39 AM
Bsed on the base, the weight is not a Clichy. But, based on the base, it is closer to Val St. Lambert. The ribbon is also a key as in Kulles' "The Less Familar" volume, page 65, figure 159 and page 67, figure 164.
Title: Clichy or VSL ?
Post by: tropdevin on August 27, 2006, 08:22:13 AM
I am not at all convinced by the argument that Nadine's weight is Val St Lambert.

I know George Kulles, and have his books, and he would be the first to admit that ideas evolve, and that sometimes what it says in the books is wrong.  He has, for example, decided that the array of tube canes used to identify 'Islington' weights is now an incorrect assumption - weights with these canes are more likely to be from Northern Europe.  That is not to criticise George at all - his books are very helpful. But like any paperweight book you read, you cannot consider them to be 100% correct.  As more information becomes available we have to be prepared to review the present understanding, and sometimes change our minds.

I share Nadine's view : I suspect that George wrongly identified a later Clichy as Val St Lambert when he wrote the 'Less Familiar' book.  I can see why, with the torsade, but where are all these other Val St Lambert cluster designs that he refers to? Has anyone seen one that is definitely Val St Lambert?  All the VSL weights that I have seen ( maybe 20 different ones) have a low profile, unlike Nadine's weight.  If only George were on email we could get him to join the debate! Perhaps I'll write to him.

Regards, Alan.
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: KevinH on August 27, 2006, 07:10:17 PM
I am still keeping an open mind on this one.

THX1138 rightly says that George Kulles' books are excellent. But we should note that the first two were published in 1985 and 1987 and were therefore based on information at that time. The later book was published in 2002 and, as Alan points out, we now have new information to study.

However, I'd like to add a few detailed points for consideration:

Nadine stated, as is often said amongst paperweight collectors,
... One of the most important is, that at all VSL weights have a low profile and a rather low dome .
But on page 62 of Kulles' ... The Less Familiar, he sated under "Profiles",
Later unfaceted Val St. Lambert examples have a taller, rounded dome.
Unfortunately, he did not show a comparative image of such a dome and he did not say whether thiose profiles were comparable to other makers. Perhaps the "higher dome VSL" weights will turn out to be later Clichy?

When comparing designs of weights, it is tempting to say that a particular pattern or usage of canes is "the same as" others seen and therefore, (also bearing in mind other factors), it indicates a particular maker. In Kulles' ... The Less Familiar, page 65, he said,
A common Val St. Lambert design has five cane clusters spaced around a central millefiori cane.
That general pattern - of five outer clusters - was also used by other makers (including modern Scottish). But the majority I have seen have had a cane cluster at the centre, not a single millefiori cane (as shown in two examples by Kulles). Could the central single cane actually be an identifying feature of VSL? If it is, then Nadine's weight is most certainly not VSL because it has a double-row cluster at the centre - and it also has only four outer clusters, not five.

One problem is that the book does not explicitly state whether there were or were not other known variations of that pattern from VSL.

I think this is all quite fascinating and is similar to the (sometimes heated) discussions over several years on whether or not Whitefriars made weights dated 1848. Anyone who checks out Kulles' Identifying Antique Paperweights Millefiori will see, for example, on page 37 that reference is made to "early Whitefriars weights (dated 1848)". Since then [1985], proof has been given that many weights with exactly the same "1848" canes were actually made in the 1920s at the Arculus factory in the English midlands and similar weights and bottles, again with 1848 canes, were continued by Walsh Walsh (after buying Arculus) and certainly marketed in the mid-1930s. Of course, there are still various collectors who do not agree that Whitefriars did not make those items.

I am eagerly awaiting the English translation of the new book on Clichy that Alan mentioned. Although I have briefly browsed two copies, I have not properly studied any of it. So for now, I will accept that Nadine's and Alan's views on the mystery weight being late Clichy are the current favourite.
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: Frank on August 27, 2006, 07:52:14 PM
There are a couple of VSL weights here
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: alpha on September 01, 2006, 01:37:47 AM
If you look at the cane with the yellow ring on the outside and the red dots in the center. I think if you look closely those red dots should be minature rose canes. If so, this cane was illustrated in an article I did for the Paperweight Collectors Association Bulletin on Hidden Roses. See for an article index for the PCA Bulletin:
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: KevinH on September 01, 2006, 03:49:31 AM
Hmmmm. Very interesting.

Since I am still here (4:30 am), and I noticed the point from "addg - signature cane guy", I thought I'd save some of you the trouble of looking it up - or trying to find a copy of the 1999 PCA Bulletin, if you don't happen to have one.

But I am also a little confused. "addg" referred to "the cane with the yellow ring on the outside and the red dots in the center". But Nadine had origannly mentioned "the cane with the 5 red dots on the right side of the weight" - which I think was later shown to be a blue "pastry-mold" type cane with a white-over-red central cane and four white-over-red "cog" canes (hence the 5 red dots prior to the macro photos) with four yellow-rod-cluster centred white cog canes between the red ones. [Does that all make sense? Please see the extra photos that were shown on 28 Apr in page 1 of this message.]

However, there is a definite match to the Yellow-tube cane with central miniature roses that Nadine had also matched to a weight in Larry Selman's auction (see earlier comments and link).

On page 13 of the 1999 PCA Bulletin "addg" showed two canes as Figures 17 & 18 of his article, both of which have what look like the same central group of 8 miniature pink roses (1 central and 7 surrounding). Each of these is enclosed in a seemingly translucent sleeve of what looks to me to be a grey-green colour. The fig 17 example has the roses inside a white 16-point cog sleeve. The Fig 18 one has the roses in a pale-yellow-over-white tubular sleeve, and this whole cane does appear to be identical to to the one in Nadine's weight.

In the article, it is stated that the Fig 17 & 18 canes have "Bohemian pink roses".

So, where are we now with attributrion of the weight?

Nadine or Alan, or anyone else with the Clichy book ... can that yellow cane with hidden roses (or perhaps just those 8 roses as a part of another cane) be found in any of the weights in the new Clichy book? If it can, then we still have a mystery of why an apparently "Bohemian" cane would appear in a Clichy weight. If it does not appear in that book, does that leave us with a Bohemian attribution for the weight - and a misattribution of the weight in the Selman sale?

I am still looking forward to seeing the weight in September and getting the UV lights on it. But the problem here is that I have not viewed enough French or Bohemian weights to know what they "should" look like under UV. And, as far as I know, I have never UV tested a "later Clichy" weight - they might not fluoresce the same as early ones! What does the Clichy book say about the UV results for later Clichy? (The graphs and tables at the back of the book did not make a lot of sense to me when I saw them in my brief look.)

Oh my. This one is fun.  :D
Title: Later Clichy - hidden rose canes / UV
Post by: tropdevin on September 01, 2006, 08:42:04 AM
All good fun, as Kevin says!

I agree that the cane with the yellow outer tube in Nadine’s weight matches the one in Andy Dohan’s article on Hidden Roses.  They are described as ‘Bohemian’ roses, but it is not clear why from the article.  Might the weight in which they are found be a later Clichy weight?  That could explain why something similar to Clichy roses appears in it!  I know that is an easy answer, but why look for complications?  Andy wrote the article about 8 years ago, and a weight might well have been attributed (mistakenly) to Bohemia, given there was little or no public knowledge of the later Clichy weights.  If that is the case, then the attribution of Nadine’s weight as later Clichy, and Selman Auction 32 lot 20 as Clichy are consistent.

I find it hard to believe the Selman weight is anything other than Clichy.  Not that I have 100% confidence in Larry’s attributions (he still calls Old English with 1848 canes early Whitefriars, for example).  It is just that the weight has so many Clichy roses!  If the weight to which Andy’s article refers is undeniably Bohemian, then, as Kevin says, we have a mystery.

I have looked through the illustrations in the Clichy book, where there are some 25 images of weights assigned to the later period.  I cannot see this particular yellow tube cane with the hidden roses, but the later Clichy weights do show a greater diversity of cane design and general style than the earlier weights.  But there are some canes in Nadine’s weight that are very like canes shown in the later weights.  The 8 cog canes with the blue valleys in the innermost ring appear in different colour ways in several weights ( blue valley and red centre, red valley red centre); and several weights include large white collapsed tube cane roses (sometimes alongside the cruder shard roses).  There are 3 canes in Nadine’s weight where an orange-brown 32(?) cog ring surrounds a white 10 cog ring that in turn surrounds a white 8 cog ring.  In the book, a near identical coloured 32 cog cane surrounds a thick white 6 cog ring.  I do recognise that this is no proof of attribution!

Turning to the UV question:  Roland Dufenne has examined only very few items, so I would be wary of drawing firm conclusions from his evidence (and I have misgivings about UV results anyway – more on that in due course!).  He reports that under illumination with a lamp using a Woods filter (so using 365 nm radiation) French weights fluoresce as follows:

Baccarat : rose-violet
St Louis : rose-salmon
St Mandé : pale yellow
Clichy : cloudy green-yellow
Clichy (later period) : cloudy grey-blue.

Also he shows a Bohemian weight fluorescing a strong yellow colour. Make of all that what you will!   He does give images that show the difference, but there are only 3 later Clichy items, and one each of the others.

[I will be in France for 3 weeks from Sunday, so I am sorry to say that I cannot be at the Cambridge meeting. Nor will I be able to contribute to this discussion during that period.]

Regards, Alan.
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: alpha on September 01, 2006, 03:39:31 PM
Not to add more confusion/clarity but the yellow cane illustrated in my article is from Paul Dunlop. The Bohmian attribution was Paul's. It might be helpful if Paul could be persuaded to post some pictures of other weights that he has with this yellow tube with mini roses inside.
Title: Another Paperweight-Quiz
Post by: alpha on September 05, 2006, 01:26:33 AM
The same type of bundled rose cane is in this weight being offered on line:
Mod: link now dead

Despite the Clichy attribution of the seller, the Sulphide and the pulled feather decoration in the same weight would lead me to Bohemian/very early 20th Century German.