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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Anne on November 29, 2004, 10:38:46 PM

Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Anne on November 29, 2004, 10:38:46 PM
Hi all,

As mentioned in an earlier post, I've found a pink satin vase which I'd like to ID the maker if possible. Does anyone recognise the design please?
http://yobunny.org.uk/gallery1/displayimage.php?pos=-93
http://yobunny.org.uk/gallery1/displayimage.php?pos=-92

Thanks in hope! :)
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Bernard C on November 30, 2004, 12:32:59 AM
Hi Anne,

Yes, it is a rather interesting Sowerby design, pattern No. 2437, launched, I believe, in flint (not colour) and in three sizes in the company's 1927 trade catalogue.

You need a bit of history to appreciate this design.    The Adam Dodds following was the grandfather of Adam Dodds, without whose contributions this glass message board would be a considerably poorer forum.

Adam Dodds, Sowerby's general manager from 1907 until his untimely demise in 1929, was responsible for the launch of Tynesyde Glassware in the late 1920s.   After a Czechoslovakian designer by the name of Schottner and two Czechoslovakian mouldmakers joined the company, the range expanded with the launch of many new designs every year from 1931 until the outbreak of war.   Tynesyde Glassware is a mix of classic Art Deco, milder Deco styles, and imitation cut - an interesting reflection of the conservatism of the principal customer base - the British public.

I am not entirely sure whether 2437 was pre-Tynesyde Glassware or not.   If it was then it is a fairly classic late '20s design incorporating swags and not attempting to emulate cut glass.   If not then it was an mild Deco design aimed at the cheaper end of the market.    Whatever, it survived into the Tynesyde Glassware range of the 1930s.

All of these I have seen have been the 7" version in satin pink, probably dating from the mid-'30s, and all probably one big order from such as the Co-op or Woolworths.

I would not recommend it as an investment - it is rather difficult to sell.   However, any Sowerby collection without one is missing out on a classic example of the transition to Tynesyde Glassware.

Watch out for other versions, which would be more attractive to collectors.   In particular, the two other sizes and examples in Carnival glass, all of which will have a scarcity value.   Also watch out for pattern 2437 from the same mould but slightly less flared.

See also Dodsworth, Roger, British Glass between the Wars (BGbtW) for an identical vase, exhibit No. 166 (described but not illustrated in the exhibition catalogue).

I can't think of anything else.   Hope that is okay.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Glen on November 30, 2004, 09:09:33 AM
The Carnival version of this vase stands 10 inches high and is known with two mouth shapings: incurved and slightly flared outwards. I have only seen examples in black amethyst Carnival. It is a much sought after vase in Carnival and is seldom seen. It's known as "Sowerby Drape" but has an alter-ego as "(Lady) Cynthia".

Glen

ps Nice to see  Adam A. and Bernard at the Glass Fair on Sunday.
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Anne on November 30, 2004, 02:49:07 PM
Oooh Bernard, that's great info thank you so much. I don't mind at all if it's not valuable or collectable... I just like it! :)

Mine is, as you said most were, 7 inches high in pink satin glass, but it's nice to know who made it and a little more about it. The closest I'd seen in design was a pink satin glass Czech-made vase, so the Czech influence isn't a surprise at all, although I wasn't aware that Sowerby had Czech designer/mouldmakers. (I'm still learning!)

I'll keep my eyes open for other sizes and Carnival versions although (and I'll probably be considered odd for saying this!) I don't particularly like Carnival glass myself. Satin and clear coloured glass has always been my thing.  :D

Thanks again for the great info... much appreciated.
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Glen on November 30, 2004, 02:58:31 PM
Oh thank you Anne. I love to hear that people don't like Carnival Glass. That leaves the coast clear for me to nab it all (I wish  :lol: ).

Just a little thought to bear in mind though - the Carnival "Sowerby Drape" vases have a value in the region of $450 to possibly $900 each, depending on the quality of iridescence etc. So if you see one, leave it alone and let me know where to find it  :lol:

Glen
Title: An official garniture???
Post by: Bernard C on December 22, 2004, 06:13:33 PM
Quote from: "Anne, in a different topic,"
Someone on eBay has listed what looks like the same vase as my pink one, except they have a pair and a bowl + figurine... would they have been sold as a set does anyone know, or is it that someone has collected them as such?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3770645916

Thanks for any thoughts.

Ah, Anne, you have hit upon the age-old chestnut - When is a garniture not a garniture?

On the British market I have seen sufficient of the 2565? flared and unplinthed version of the "log lady" floating bowl set garnished with a pair of matching 2437s to be confident that they were retailed together.   The question then is does this make them a garniture set.   I think it does, as it is an accepted combination found regularly.   However, a purist might argue that it has to appear in company literature or be obviously a garniture (like many Art Deco marble clock garnitures) before that epithet can be formally applied.

You then get stages in between, such as:

I notice that auction houses such as Sotheby's get around the problem by just describing the set as X accompanied by a matching pair of Y.

Note
1. Glen kindly confirmed on this board some time ago that the two versions of the bowl are from different moulds, hence my query on the pattern number, which may only apply to the upright sided plinthed version.
2. Beware of overextrapolating from scarce material.   For example, Bagley's PG advertisement of 1st February 1936 shows a 1333 clock flanked by a pair of 3013 vases.   Some might interpret this as a garniture combination.   However I have never seen this set for sale, and I believe that the display shown in the photograph was just an attractive layout by the advertisement designer, nothing more than that.   More recently the 1993 Shipley exhibition souvenir showed Davidson sets on Bagley and Sowerby plinths.   That demonstrates nothing other than a shameful error by museum professionals, who should have noticed and corrected it before publication!

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Anne on December 22, 2004, 11:54:22 PM
Ahhh right, thank you Bernard for your explanation. I think I'm clear with this now. I shall keep on looking for more pieces like those in the picture to add to the one I have, then I can have a garniture (what a lovely word!) too.

Incidentally, I bought another small pink vase yesterday which I think is Sowerby - there is one that I think is the same in uranium glass pictured on the 1st Glassman site. I'll try and post a photo of the new one for comparison.
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: PaulADK on December 23, 2004, 01:46:59 AM
I have always been under the impression that, a garniture was simply a display of a set of 3, 5 or 7 items.  The combination, two and one (say a pair of candlesticks flanking a vase)  two, two, and one (candlestick, vase, jar, vase candlestick) and so on.  So long as the display is in balance, all objects were of the same style or pattern, it could be considered a garniture.  (Under my definition, two flow blue plates in the Amoy pattern displayed flanking an Amoy platter would be a garniture.)
Now, if I understand correctly, glass can not be considered a true garniture unless it was sold specifically as a set, and that the glass "garniture" might even contain an even number of items.

I learn something new every day.  Now if I could only remember the half of it.
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Bernard C on December 23, 2004, 04:38:49 AM
Paul:

I am merely passing on the specific usage of the term garniture amongst glass collectors and dealers here in the UK.   As it is a fairly rare term here, its use probably varies around the world. I have never seen it used here for other than one main item garnished by a pair of others, except in one peculiar instance of four vases cited in Miller's Glass Buyer's Guide, p.254, where I suppose you could think of it as a pair of large vases garnished by a pair of smaller ones.

Some distinction has to be made between garnitures originally sold as such, and today's offerings of the more imaginative mix-and-match merchants.

Whatever the garnished glass object, a British garnishment is invariably a pair of either smaller or less elaborate versions of it, or vases, or candlesticks.   The most eclectic British garniture I have found is a 1930s Walsh crackle fish garnished by a pair of tall Venetian-style candlesticks with applied pincerwork decorated onamental handles, probably a frigger.   The most desirable standard production pressed glass garniture would be a 1930s Bagley 334 vase garnished by a pair of 334 side vases, complete with their flower holders.    Probably just wishful thinking with such rarities.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Anne on December 23, 2004, 07:48:11 PM
I'm really puzzled by the pink vases on eBay again now...  I contacted the seller and asked if she knew the maker/date for the vases and the bowl, and her response was that it was..."it was something from cadbury roses Anniversary", I don't know if she meant it all, or just the bowl. I'll have to ask some more.
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Bernard C on December 23, 2004, 08:13:18 PM
Hi Anne,
Quote from: "In [i
Sowerby Gateshead Glass[/i], p.39, Simon Cottle"]A young Sudeten German, Herr Schottner, was recruited as a designer in the early 1920s. He was responsible for the design of a flower bowl and block surmounted by a nude female figure. Chocolate manufacturers, such as Cadbury's, bought thousands of these bowls and sold them for 2s.6d. each with confectionary arranged around the centrepiece and a ribbon tied over the figure.

This has become embellished over the years to the claim that the roses in the bowl were the source of the name for Cadbury's assortment.   There is no proof of this to my knowledge, but it's quite possible - a harmless story that is in wide circulation.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Glen on December 23, 2004, 10:11:23 PM
Some years ago, when I was researching for one of our books, I made contact with Cadbury's regarding this. They kindly searched their archives quite extensively, but could find no records to confirm the story. I would suggest that it is simply hearsay.....and a nice story, but with no basis that could be proved.

Glen
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Anne on December 24, 2004, 09:56:13 AM
Bernard and Glen, thank you for the further information on the bowl/Cadbury connection. I was not aware of this marketing connection but it explains the eBay listing. The three items are listed with a starting price of 80 - which I thought initially was on the high side, but is it?  Is it the fact that the bowl and figure are complete and match the vases the reason for this, as I didn't pay very much for my vase alone?  Also, would the figurine have had the holes around the base to hold flower stalks? (As you can probably tell, this is a whole new area for me!  :roll: ) Thanks for your continued help.
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Wayne on December 24, 2004, 03:17:53 PM
Hi Anne, I just come across this post.  The lady and bowl in question come up quite often on ebay, and personally I feel 80 is a very high price, even with 2 vases.  As it happens I actually have the same lady & bowl set (without vases), which I will be listing on Ebay tonight with a start price of 14.99.  If you like I'll post a link to the item on here when I get chance.  Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I'm sure it will finish at a lot less than 80.

By the way, I had read somewhere that there is a Czech made version of this lady, does anyone know if this is true?

Best wishes & Merry Xmas everyone!
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Anne on December 25, 2004, 12:18:33 AM
How did they get the name of frog? Hardly froglike are they, or is it that they sit in the water bowl I wonder?

Bernard, I quite understand your POV on live listings, and I apologise, it was thoughtless of me to comment on this whilst the auction was live.

Wayne, thank you for your extra info, and for your wonderfully informative website. I've just spent around an hour browsing the encyclopaedia and have seen several familiar designs - ones either I or my mother have - some being in items/colours  you don't have pictures of  - would photos of them be of use for the encyclopaedia? If so I'd be happy to send you some.

A very merry Christmas to everyone.
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Wayne on December 26, 2004, 10:55:28 PM
Hi Anne, thank you for the compliments about the website!  I plan to add loads more info when I can find time, but thanks to eBay I seem to spend most of my time packing up glass for posting!  I would love to add any pictures you can send, as long as it's not too much trouble for you.

I've got the pink Sowerby lady and bowl item listed on ebay now if you're interested.  The following link should take you to it:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3771797467

As for your question on why flower frogs are called 'frogs', I'm not exactly sure.  As far as I am aware, it was a slang term that became popular, probably for the reason you mention, that they 'sit in water'.

Best wishes, I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas!!
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Adam on December 27, 2004, 10:30:45 AM
I had never heard of the word "frog" until I joined this message board!

At Sowerby's and Davidson's we called them (and sold them as) flower blocks for the round and oval heavy things and flower holders for the other, variously shaped things.  The word "flower" was naturally omitted in everyday usage.

I can only assume that "frog", like "cranberry" is something dreamed up by collectors.

Adam D.
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Anne on December 27, 2004, 10:46:20 AM
That's interesting Adam, thank you for clarifying it. On a whim I checked my Universal Dictionary and frog is defined there as "A spiked or perforated object placed in a container and used to support stems in a decorative floral arrangement", but there is no etymology for this particular usage so I still don't know where it started. :roll:

Quote from: "Wayne"
I would love to add any pictures you can send, as long as it's not too much trouble for you.


No problem, I'll snaffle the digicam off my other half and see what I can do. :)

Quote from: "Wayne"
I've got the pink Sowerby lady and bowl item listed on ebay now if you're interested.


It's lovely but you're listing at the wrong time! ... it's just after Xmas and I (and probably others!) am all spent up... unless I can persuade my other half he'd like it for his birthday next week I may have to pass at the moment.  :wink:
Title: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Frank on December 28, 2004, 12:52:10 PM
"Frog" is applied to all sorts of things, apart from glass and flowers, that comprise a means of keeping things in place. My references say that the origin of the term is not known but goes back far in the past.
Title: Re: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: brucebanner on January 21, 2018, 11:42:30 AM
The dark purple almost black glass version of this vase with an almost silver mirror like outer surface.

It measures 9 1/2 inches with a rim diameter of 4 inches and foot diameter if 4 1/2 inches.

Regards Chris.
Title: Re: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Anne on January 22, 2018, 12:01:12 AM
The Carnival version of this vase stands 10 inches high and is known with two mouth shapings: incurved and slightly flared outwards. I have only seen examples in black amethyst Carnival. It is a much sought after vase in Carnival and is seldom seen. It's known as "Sowerby Drape" but has an alter-ego as "(Lady) Cynthia".

Glen

Chris, it looks like you might have found the carnival version that Glen refers to in her earlier reply? (quoted above)
Title: Re: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: brucebanner on January 22, 2018, 09:58:35 PM
I just realised this post is coming up to 14 years old, is that a record?.


According to Charles Hajdamach it's called "rainbo lustre" he is missing the W could be a typing error?.
Title: Re: Pink satin glass vase... ID = Sowerby 2437 drape vase
Post by: Anne on January 22, 2018, 11:34:43 PM
I have no idea Chris, Glen is the carnival queen so she'd be the one to ask that question of.    8)

14 years is probably getting on for a record, but we never close discussion topics like this as there is always something new to add. It was one of my earliest posts on the board, way back when I was a new kid on the block!  I still have my pink drape vase too. ;D