Glass Message Board

Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Montybutton on January 24, 2017, 05:30:58 PM

Title: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Montybutton on January 24, 2017, 05:30:58 PM
Please can anyone help me identify the pattern of some vintage Stuart Crystal glasses, as I am keen to replace some that have accidently been broken?

I have attached two photos for reference. The glass is part of a set of six tumblers plus an elegant water pitcher/jug. They all bear the Stuart Crystal stamp on the base (see photo) and one of the remaining glasses and the jug carry the Ludwig Kny signature 'LKny'.

I have searched ebay and other search engines with no success, however if I knew the name of the pattern/design it would help.

They are such elegant glasses for water or beer and having been part of my family since the early 1900s I would dearly love to know more about them.
Thanks
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Anne on January 24, 2017, 07:00:11 PM
Hello and welcome to the board. Your glasses look like the Woodchester pattern but the feathers seem slimmer than I usually see.  It would be worth a browse through this site to see if you can find a match: http://www.replacements.com/crystal/stu.htm - let us know how you get on. Good luck!
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Montybutton on January 24, 2017, 09:13:27 PM
Many thanks for your prompt reply. I have been looking at Woodchester but had been deterred by the 'fern' design. I will keep persevering.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Paul S. on January 24, 2017, 09:52:58 PM
the problem with using glasses is precisely that  -  given enough time they do have mishaps - had these been mine don't think I would have wanted to risk their accidental demise.            As a purely personal opinion, I'm not so sure these are quite as old as may be thought, and I'm thinking that they're not yet quite officially antique.       It's just possible that a potentially more successful direction to source replacements might be to try those dealers that trade specifically in 1920s and 1930s studio glass, rather than the bog standard ebay or replacement locations.
I've a feeling that if you do find others they are not going to be cheap, especially if they include Kny's signature.

It's true that there is a noticeable difference between what we see usually as 'Woodchester', and the less ambitious looking fern that appears on this tumbler.      Always possible this set may have been some form of early prototype of Kny's efforts at what became his passion for ferny decoration.
If you do find replacements it might be an idea not to use them. :)        best of luck.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Montybutton on January 30, 2017, 04:55:27 PM
I am continuing to research my Stuart Crystal 'Wheat' glasses. Does anyone know how I can research the Harrods Exhibition in 1934 as it has been suggested to me that any pieces bearing Ludwig Kny's signature are likely to have been for this exhibition.

The V&A museum mention it but I have not been able to access the catalogue http://www.vam.ac.uk/archives/unit/ARC142104

I have also come across a lecture (No: 9) by Charles Hajdamach on his website titled 'Stuart Crystal and the Harrods Exhibition' - and his website directs people looking for identification to the GMB.
Any ideas are welcome, many thanks.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Paul S. on January 30, 2017, 07:59:57 PM
the GMB member most likely to have in depth knowledge of Kny and his designs for Stuart is Nigel Benson  -  perhaps he might see this and look in. :)

Most unfortunate that CH's lecture appears not easily available, but we are speaking here of specialist information rather than IKEA, so obviously more difficult to source these papers.

I think we have to be a little careful when describing this particular design - assume we are still speaking of what is generally known as Kny's fern design -  and as far as I'm aware the standard description of that one is 'Woodchester'.

The more I look at this particular piece the more it makes me think of Irene Stevens 'Wheat Ear' pattern - a design that was more upright, more narrow, and more like an ear of wheat  -  but of course the conundrum is that apparently the op's glass is marked with Kny's signature for Stuart - so very confusing.

If you're watching Nigel  - can you please spare a few moments to give an opinion - thanks.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: chopin-liszt on January 30, 2017, 08:03:26 PM
Hi and welcome.  :)
I strongly suspect the member you need to talk to is Nigel Benson.
He isn't here every day, but he might find this thread now I've mentioned his name.
He curated the exhibition Art Deco to Post Modernisn, A legacy of British Art Deco Glass, in 2003, in conjunction with Jeanette Hayhurst and wrote the accompanying booklet, which I am lucky wnough to own, I was also lucky enough to get to see the exhibition. :)
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Paul S. on January 30, 2017, 08:59:40 PM
not that it should affect our discussions on the Stuart aspect here, but apparently the Webb Corbett 'Wheat-ear' design attributed to Irene Stevens c. 1955, looks on the face of it to have had a very similar but earlier origin.

In the booklet to which Sue refers Nigel illustrates a comport and decanter which carry an upright stylized leaf motif very similar to 'Wheat-ear', for which the caption reads ".... probably designed by Herbert Webb, pat. No. 14837, marked Webb Corbett Made in England, c1935, 11.3/4 ins."[Mod: caption details for pat. number and spelling of company name corrected]

It does look very much like the later design from Irene Stevens  -  although there is some difference in how this motif appears depending on the item of glass being viewed - one or two of them looking more like Kny's 'Woodchester' - although all of W/Corbett pieces show a very upright 'fern/ear' -  rather than the curly ones associated with Kny.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Montybutton on January 30, 2017, 09:42:53 PM
Thank you all  so much  for taking the time to respond with such in depth information. I've looked at the W/Corbett design and can see similarities. If Nigel doesn't respond here I will try and email him via his website and let you know.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: nigelbenson on January 31, 2017, 09:31:47 PM
Hello All,

Firstly, I think it is reasonable to point out that these glasses could have been  a design used at one of three exhibitions which happened from 1934 to 1936. "Modern Art for the Table" - Harrods, 1934; "Art in Industry" - Royal Academy, 1935; or, "Everyday Things" - RIBA, 1936. (Edit) - There were extra designs added to the later exhibitions, so it may not come from the Harrods one.

The best place to approach would be the Wedgwood Museum as they have the Stuart archive. If you send them clear images - profile, detail of pattern, base - and give them sizes, etc., they will look up the archive if you point out that they are marked with a facsimile signature which suggests any of those exhibitions. Give them plenty of time as they are (like all museums) short staffed and can't 'jump to it'.

The catalogue for the Art in Industry exhibition does not help at all as it is not illustrated and the descriptions are limited to what the item is, rather than the decoration.

I'm afraid, IMHO, it is very unlikely that you will find a replacement easily, in fact it could take years, or even never happen as no-one with a set will want to split it, and given their likely rarity, you may find one I'm afraid. Certainly I don't recall ever seeing this pattern before. That said you may have extreme luck and find one next week in a charity shop!!!

Oh, and I don't think this is Woodchester pattern, or a prototype, rather more it is a pattern that stands on its own as part of a theme that Ludwig Kny explored over time. Also I think it is a likely pattern to re-occur given that designers were looking to pare down the patterns used in the Victorian era, hence the apparent duplication(s) mentioned above.

Cheers, Nigel
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Montybutton on January 31, 2017, 09:54:24 PM
Nigel thank you so much for your detailed response, what a mine of information you are. Little did I imagine this search to replace a broken glass would reveal such an interesting history. I will follow your advice and make contact with the Wedgwood museum and report back if it is of interest. Whether I find any replacements or not, I have been captivated by what you and your GMB colleagues have told me and hope to relay it to my 96 year old mother who owns them. Thanks to you all for your help it is much appreciated.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 01, 2017, 01:30:32 PM
I do hope the interesting information helps to compensate for the disappointment of the unlikliness of finding a replacement.

Many of us do use our precious glass every day, for the enjoyment it provides.
The risk of it becoming damaged does increase with the use, but you've had all the years of enjoying it properly, as it was supposed to be enjoyed. :)
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Montybutton on February 01, 2017, 02:51:37 PM
Sue,  Thanks for your kind thoughts. I'm very philosophical about the breakages and will continue to enjoy the remaining three glasses and handle them even more carefully in future! I am still fascinated by this intriguing research and will explore it as far as I can. Thank you all again for your interest and time spent in sharing your knowledge with me. Eileen
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 01, 2017, 03:34:24 PM
I hope your enjoyment of the remaining three will increase now you know this.
You can always look on them as "a pair, plus a spare".  :)
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Montybutton on February 01, 2017, 04:41:40 PM
Sue, that's exactly what my husband said! Thanks
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: brucebanner on February 05, 2017, 07:06:03 PM
If this is the Lkny signature i have seen it twice, (i can not see it on the op) a few years ago on a set of wine glasses i did not buy because i did not recognise the pattern and did not think i could sell them and on 5 sherry's i picked up today mainly because of this post i read a few days ago.

 Both times only one glass was signed Stuart and LKNY in the set but all the others were signed Stuart without the LKNY.

My new ones are similar to pattern 26320b which looks to have been mass produced, the stem differs though.

You could always have more made to make the set up, there are plenty of good glass makers that can still do it.

Regards Chris.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Paul S. on February 05, 2017, 08:43:18 PM
Chris - is the pattern on your glasses Waterford, or is it different  -  it looks to have some similarity with Waterford, the main design of which was a four petal flower image, but I've had another slightly different version which wasn't Waterford.
Is your Lkny mark really a signature, or do you think it is an acid formed mark - it doesn't look to be formed with a stylus or sorts ..........  perhaps Stuart had permission to use the designers name on this pattern permanently.           I didn't see it on the op's glass either.

I've looked back at some earlier chat, and yes, I think 2632B is Waterford  -  although some care needed as although same cut pattern appears on several different shapes, each separate shape appears to have had a different factory pattern No.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: brucebanner on February 05, 2017, 08:58:18 PM
Hello Paul it's typical Art Deco Stuart Crystal pattern signed Stuart.

I think the signature is machine made rather than by hand, the only reason i can think one is signed is just the look it maybe would spoil the quality and make the foot too fussy?.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Paul S. on February 05, 2017, 09:05:25 PM
perhaps the op's glass was marked in a similar way to yours then, and maybe in that case Stuart did have copyright to reproduce Kny's name on certain patterns, with an acid process rather than a real signature.          In all the years I haunted boot fairs have to say I wasn't aware of finding his name on any glasses.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: brucebanner on February 05, 2017, 09:41:41 PM
Are we talking about the same person?, have you seen this snippit.

I take it it's Ludwig jnr?.


My advice to anyone with a favourite glass is to put it away safe, i smashed my beloved coke glass in a pre Black Sabbeth double coke and JD tipple Saturday and now i'm totally gutted.

http://nativemonster.com/attractions/museums/historic-glass-goes-on-display-in-stourbridge
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: nigelbenson on February 05, 2017, 10:06:07 PM
Hello,

Given the number of pieces found in the 'Waterford' pattern that have the L Kny facsimile signature mark on them it seems reasonable to make an assumption that this was a pattern that was designed for one of the aforementioned exhibitions, which was then put into production.

There are, after all too many pieces known to make it credible that they all came from these exhibitions. More probable IMHO, is that it was successful and garnered so many orders that Stuart decided to put it into production using the L Kny name. It was produced for a long period, is relatively common, and is also seen without the L Kny mark. The avant garde designs were less well supported by department store buyers, so, this design giving a nod to the more traditional is likely to have received far more commercial success.

So, did they take his name off after they finished fulfilling those orders; after he died; or, maybe, after WWII? No work on this has been done I'm afraid, however too many pieces exist to make them rarified. More desirable maybe, but whether it commands more money I guess only the market can tell.

Cheers, Nigel
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: brucebanner on February 05, 2017, 10:44:53 PM
Same as the modern day Jasper Conran by Stuart.

The glass i have shown is not modern, it's too well made.

Without sounding negative i don't think it's common either having only seen it twice in ten years and i look at a lot of crystal like Paul. :)
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: nigelbenson on February 06, 2017, 01:24:54 AM
How many examples do you want Chris? I have a box full and have refused quite a number over thirty years, most particularly since the exhibition we held in 2003.

Cheers, Nigel
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Montybutton on February 06, 2017, 08:04:31 AM
This is an interesting development. I intend to post a photo of the LKny signature on my glass and the jug, however it is stored at my mother's house and will not be visiting until mid February. My non- expert assumption is the signature is an acid mark rather than hand signed. Thanks to you all for your responses. Must admit I had never thought I could have a replacement made. Expect it would be very expensive.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 06, 2017, 05:23:50 PM
I suppose the price would depend on who you asked to make it.  :)
There are many excellent glassmakes who could reproduce a facsimile of the glass shape and several engravers you could commission to reproduce the pattern.
I imagine it would be quite reasonable.



Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Carolyn Preston on February 06, 2017, 06:40:14 PM
My advice to anyone with a favourite glass is to put it away safe, i smashed my beloved coke glass in a pre Black Sabbeth double coke and JD tipple Saturday and now i'm totally gutted.

Sometimes that doesn't even work. I had much of my "wedding" crystal, my husband's few pieces of Edinburgh Crystal (Loch Nagar pattern, I believe) and some glass bits and bobs in a cabinet with glass doors and shelves. The upper shelf shattered and we lost many, many pieces.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 06, 2017, 07:27:53 PM
I can't help but feel it was a fitting tribute to Black Sabbath,  ;D
Nothing but the best should be smashed!
But sorry you lost your glass Chris, just don't get Paranoid about it.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: Montybutton on February 07, 2017, 07:28:41 AM
I may explore having a replacement made. However can anyone either recommend a quality glassmaker in the Midlands or point me in the direction of how I could find one? It is as much the shape of the glass and quality of the crystal that makes them so appealing rather than the pattern. I know of an engraver in Warwick. Thanks.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: brucebanner on February 07, 2017, 09:25:25 PM
Are the boxed ones you have  all signed LKny  Nigel?, ive just charity shopped 400 pieces of crystal to make space in my storage unit and loft.

I had an epergne made for an art deco centerpiece and it cost 30 and you would not be able to tell the difference the colour is a perfect match.

I saw Black Sabbeth again Saturday and started on my new tippler a really worn early victorian ale glass so hopefully it will keep up the pace.
Title: Re: Vintage Stuart Crystal
Post by: nigelbenson on February 07, 2017, 11:31:59 PM
Facsimile signed L Kny 'Waterford' pattern bowls, vases, epergne, bon-bons, glasses, etc. - so say, two crates come to think of it.

Against any other designs that are marked L Kny, by far and away the 'easiest' to find. Moreover, it's rare to find any of the other designs twice, let alone more times in my experience. This includes both searching out and about, and watching topics about it on the Internet, articles and terrestrial auctions over the years.

Cheers, Nigel

PS. Sent you a PM Montybutton. N