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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: BJB on August 22, 2009, 11:22:45 AM

Title: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: BJB on August 22, 2009, 11:22:45 AM
Hi All,

I have just bought this lovely large lion with his paw on a shield with the union flag on it

http://i26.tinypic.com/2kfxcm.jpg

which glows really nicely under UV lighting

http://i32.tinypic.com/v4qtrq.jpg

I think it may be by Davidson but am not sure, as I know they made little lions. Can anyone shed any light on it.

Many thanks

Barbara
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: rosecottagesales on August 22, 2009, 11:43:10 AM
Hi Barbara

I know John Derbyshire also made similar lion paperweight, but yours looks slightly different:)

Cheers
Brenton
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: BJB on August 22, 2009, 11:50:12 AM
Its the paw on the shield which is different, maybe made for one of Queen Victoria's Jubilees, and she had quite a few, or a victory in some battle or other. I had forgotten about John Derbyshire, and Molineux made a sphinx so may have made a lion.

He is nice though, looks like lime jelly in the sun!
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Paul S. on August 22, 2009, 05:38:53 PM
Barbara  -  if you have Slack's English Pressed Glass - 1830  -  1900, try looking a page 94 (centre).   Described as 'translucent green' (not uranium).  Wud have thought that Slack wud have commented otherwise if he knew it to be U., so maybe the same model produced in both U. and non-U.    cheers    Paul S.
P. S. of course if yu don't have the book, come back and we can quote the caption for this illustration (in full).
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Lustrousstone on August 22, 2009, 05:50:45 PM
Slack may not have bothered whether it was uranium glass or not, does he say who made it?
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: BJB on August 22, 2009, 05:53:43 PM
Hi Paul,

I don't have that book I'm afraid, just the Jenny Thompson " The Identification of English Pressed Glass ".

It would be lovely if you could let me know who made it and when.

Many thanks
Barbara
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on August 22, 2009, 06:04:16 PM
Yes he does say almost certainly Henry Greener c1890 as very similar to another Lion shown with the shield in slag glass which was marked with the first Greener mark, I also had the same Lion recently in uranium which had a stud fitting on the top of the head of the Lion for a bowl of some type, I would also think that all the Lions in this colour would be uranium

Roy
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: BJB on August 22, 2009, 06:15:42 PM
Hi Roy,

Many thanks, I would have never thought of Greener. The lion has no makers mark, that would be too easy! but he is a good large size and very well modeld.

Barbara
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Paul S. on August 22, 2009, 06:47:25 PM
Barbara  -  just for the record, the caption to the illustration reads......"Lion paperweight in translucent green glass, c. 1890.   Unmarked but almost identical to the marked lion paperweights by Henry Greener shown in the picture below (here he refers to very similar lion models on the same page  -  same size  -   but in purple slag/marble glass).   Lion paperweights like this were probably also made by Greener, but from a slightly larger mould, and are probably unmarked because they date from the period after Henry Greener & Co. was acquired by James Jobling.  Height 6 in. (15.2 cm).""     Christine's comment that Slack may not have bothered whether or not is was U. - in not unjustified.    Throughout the book the author almost completely (but not quite) avoids any reference to U.  -   perhaps in 1987 access to small hand held torches was difficult.   The book is nonetheless invaluable if you collect pressed glass.  Paul S.
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Anne on August 22, 2009, 09:07:38 PM
It's a serious price though Paul, I can't find any copies on sale below £70 each and most of them much more than that. :(
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Paul S. on August 22, 2009, 09:20:17 PM
always a problem Anne with these specialist books, unfortunately.   How about putting it on your list for 25/12 for Father Christmas??    cheers     Paul S.
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Anne on August 22, 2009, 09:41:11 PM
It's more of a scroll than a list, Paul! (Think roll of wallpaper type scroll!!! :24:) Good idea though.

As this is a title missing from our Books forums would you be able to do a review of it for us please?
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Paul S. on August 23, 2009, 03:37:03 PM
I know what you mean about book wants  -  I cud spend a king's ransom tomorrow on what I wud like.   be happy to do a review  -  give me a few days to get my act together.     I have met Raymond Slack once or twice at boot sales - great guy  - think he now has a great interest in old wood working tools.   Paul S.
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Simba on May 07, 2012, 02:15:22 PM
I have one of these Lion's with a shield and I contacted  molwebb who says they definately are not Derbyshire mine is in  frosted glass. Any idea's
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Paul S. on May 07, 2012, 08:13:21 PM
Ideas yes, but nothing conclusive.

Having spent some time making comparisons between this frosted example and the two pictures in Slack, my personal opinion is.............
This one bears more of a similarity to the 'translucent green' example in the book (which is without proven attribution - but thought to be Greener)  -  than to the pair of Brown Marble ones which are known to be Greener (first factory mark).
The reason being.............comparing those in the book, the most notable difference seems to be the height of the mane.        The brown examples show only a slight rise over the head, whereas in the green lion the mane rises sharply over the forhead to more of a domed look.  I'm sure there are other more subtle differences, but difficult to see from the pictures.
However, from what I can see,  this frosted example appears to show less fine moulding detail than those in the book.    I suspect that Simba doesn't have a copy of this book, and we aren't given the height of this one, so unable to compare with Slack's comment that the green and brown examples are both 15.2 cms. (6") - which seems odd, since he says that the green ones were made from a slightly larger mould!

Although there are several 'lions' in Thompson, none is in this pose i.e. paws resting on the draped shield thingy (although funnily enough Thompson does show a pair of 'frosted' lions (Landseer style) which are attributed to John Derbyshire.         Lions in general seem thin on the ground in all the other books I have, so no help there.              They weren't thin on the ground at Birmingham on Sunday - but prices were like telephone Nos.
I get the impression that paws resting on the ground was a more common design, and on balance it may not be unreasonably to think that all examples produced with 'paws up' were Greener - but that's just a personal thought.         Positive attribution for this one may remain elusive, unless someone can find the exact pattern in a book.

Having spoken to Raymond Slack about his omitting reference to glowing glass (aside from his quoting extracts from the Pottery Gazette where given ingredients include uranium) - he did apparently have a reason for calling pieces 'translucent green' rather that saying uranium green, as we might now do.                       
Although ingredients for such products as Burmese Ware, Sowerby's Patent Ivory Ware and Davidson's Yellow Pearline obviously included uranium, it seems that it was Burtles and Tate only who actually marketed a product which had a trade name of 'Uranium' - and this was one of the colours in their Topaz range (presumably it was green - I've never seen it).         Outside of this, the use of the word uranium was confined merely as a word used to describe one of the constituent chemicals in certain types of glass  -  not a word used to describe any glowing green glass, as we do.    The Victorians didn't have u.v. torches, and so didn't attach the same meaning to glass containing uranium, and Slack followed that line of thinking, and didn't make reference to uranium green pieces in his book.

With his experience of pressed glass, is Bernard able to comment on this 'lion' issue in any way -  or anyone else for that matter. :)

P.S.   sorry this is so long, I really try to be brief, but it just doesn't seem to work.
 
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: neilh on May 07, 2012, 08:52:47 PM
I was talking to Simba about this earlier, and a point I made was that I can't find any Derbyshire examples which use studded dots on the base, so I didn't think it was by them. I did suggest it might be a cheeky way to get round the 3 year design registration rule by combining the Derbyshire lion and Britannia shield.

Which makers used studded dots on the base? This seems a significant attribution clue...
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Simba on May 07, 2012, 09:07:34 PM
My frosted lion measures 16.5 cms high x 17.5 cms wide if this helps  :)
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Paul S. on May 07, 2012, 09:11:44 PM
I only wish it did...............wish life were that simple. ;D
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Simba on May 07, 2012, 09:20:01 PM
Couple more pictures......
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Simba on May 07, 2012, 09:21:07 PM
should have been this picture !! ::)
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Simba on May 07, 2012, 09:58:55 PM
Just found some close up images of Derbyshire lion and can see some of differences in the faces of that lion to mine
* mine does not have the puffed out cheeks
* mine does not have a hairy chin
 
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Carolyn Preston on May 08, 2012, 12:30:00 AM
Whilst hanging out at an antique mall this weekend (where I got the cutest little vintage stuffed Scottie dog) and listening in to a conversation regarding uranium glass, we were told that there is "new" uranium glass being created. She (the person working at the mall) did not mention who might be doing this. I was quite surprised as I had thought that no one had used uranium since shortly after the second world war.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Lustrousstone on May 08, 2012, 06:29:33 AM
No, uranium has never really stopped being used somewhere in glass. Even our Adam A has used it within the last couple of years. There were pauses in use in various countries though.
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Carolyn Preston on May 09, 2012, 12:21:30 AM
Oh okay, will dust out my mind soon, I promise.  ::)  ;D

Carolyn
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Simba on May 18, 2012, 02:00:24 PM
Just managed to purchase a copy of Raymond Slack's book English Pressed Glass 1830-1900 and I see that he has attributed these lions with shields to Greener though probably made after Jobling has taken them over hence the slight size difference and why they are unmarked. So that's good enough for me !! Brilliant book definately recommend it I got mine second hand.
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Paul S. on May 18, 2012, 06:11:26 PM
hello Simba - glad you managed to get a copy of Raymond Slack's book - well worth having, although it can sometimes be expensive, even as a second hand book  -  doubtless you've read my review in the book section ;) ;)            Quote.......... "I got mine second hand"  -  I don't think there is any other way of acquiring one, now ;D

I wouldn't dream of questioning this author .........but in view of your comments I have read again the caption to Slack's pictures of the 'paws up' lions - and found myself wondering .............

According to Baker and Crowe, Henry Greener (the company) were the subject of a take over by their principal creditors, Jobling, in 1885.

Thinking of the illustrated brown marble lions - which according to Slack have Greener (first mark) provenance and are dated to c.1880  -  made me wonder why pieces such as the 'translucent green' lions might have remained marked, as suggested by Slack.
Despite these lions having been made at a time when there were company difficulties etc. re the take over, much glass from this factory does carry what is known as the 'second Greener mark'  -  another lion, but distinctively different from the first mark, and carrying an axe instead of a star.
This second crest mark was instituted - according to Lattimore - at the time of the take over by Jobling, and Greener continued registering designs certainly until the end of the century.

Slack may well be correct in his assumption (which is no doubt based solely on the fact that the green lions are in a style very similar to the known Greener brown marble examples) -  but it does seem odd that the factory should have chosen not to have used their own 'second mark' - in use at the time these were made. :)

 
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: neilh on May 18, 2012, 07:09:32 PM
My copy of Slack is signed by the author, with the phrase "Happy hunting Barney", dated Nov 17 1996 - bet someone here knows who that is, and they are gonna tell me I've got a dead man's book  :'(
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Simba on May 18, 2012, 08:15:22 PM
Paul... how could you throw another spanner in the works !! Just I I had it sorted in my head...   :o  Maybe the change in the registration mark is reflected in the changes to the lion moulds. Greener's 1st  mark the lion is far less rampant than the second mark (my lion looks far more rampant than the brown marble lions in Mr slacks book !) but because it was just a slight difference to an original mould neither company could lay claim to it so omitted either mark.... ;) ;)
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Paul S. on May 18, 2012, 09:19:51 PM
Neil  -  If 'Barney' doesn't come forward - and I can remember - I will ask Raymond Slack when next I speak to him, if he can recall that name.
My copy is also signed  -  think I'm alive - at least most of the time ;)

Simba  -  it's not really a spanner, just that I was really wondering out loud - assuming Slack is correct - why Greener might not have marked their green lions bearing in mind that they marked their other pieces subsequent to the Jobling take over (the post take over mark being the 'axe mark').           I'm not suggesting Slack is wrong, just commenting that it seems a little odd that the green lions were not marked.

Not so sure I can agree with your reasoning for the absence of marks on the green lions :)      Since Jobling owned Greener & Company post 1885, then presumably they would have owned title to both the 'first and second" trade marks, so there would have been no problem with using either  -  at least that's my opinion, for what it's worth, although I might need to stand corrected re the law on trade marks.          Anyway, I think it remains a mystery, for which I don't think there is yet a rational explanation.
Like other, not too dissimilar marks, when worn perhaps, the different Greener marks may look similar if viewed quickly, and confusion can arise, so worth taking care. 

I must apologise :-[.........................despite re-reading my post, there is an error which gives the opposite meaning to what was intended...................quote........"might have remained marked"  -  should, of course have been......."remained unmarked"
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on May 18, 2012, 10:05:19 PM
A similar Lion of mine for reference

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,22187.msg125183.html#msg125183

Roy
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: Paul S. on May 19, 2012, 12:08:35 PM
nice piece Roy  -  must follow you next time at Ardingly ;)      You may well be correct re the possibility of yours being a base for something like a comport.   

thought I'd remembered seeing pressed lions in the V. & A. recently - so checked again last week, but couldn't see any, although I suppose they might have them in store.

I knew something was nagging about the name Simba and these lions  -  and I've just realized ;D ;D

Apologies to Barbara that we've gone off course rather. :)
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: mhgcgolfclub on May 19, 2012, 01:16:07 PM
Thanks Paul

I can remember seeing a blue Derbyshire lion in the V&A but that was at least 5 years or more ago

Roy
Title: Re: Does anyone know who made my large "Uranium" green lion?
Post by: petet63 on February 12, 2014, 07:05:59 PM
Hi, just restarting this one with a lion I picked up today. He is 16cm h and 17.5 w approx and the diameter of the 'fixing' on the head is 3cm. It has four lugs where something definitely sat on top of it. Has anyone come across the 'missing' item yet ? This one has a crack running up through it but it can't be felt on the surface??