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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Austria => Topic started by: Mike M on September 03, 2009, 09:41:50 PM

Title: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 03, 2009, 09:41:50 PM
Hi Folks

A little light entertainment for those willing to play along.

I must apologies for doing a 'Bernard C' as I'm going to explain this in two goes.

The picture below is of two very cute tiny vases, only about 3 inches tall. I bought them Monday at Woking Art Deco.

I thought they could only be from a very few makers. For those willing to play along I invite suggestions as to who was responsible for them.

Once people have had a reasonable chance to hazard a guess as to their origin - I'll post a picture of the label on the bottom of one of them. A label, I've never seen documented before and that is quite confusing .. but I get ahead of myself.

Once I saw the label I've come to a very surprising conclusion (in a nerdy glass collector kind of way) I'd like to see if people agree, but I think it works better is you just see the vases first.

So fine glass folk who do you think are responsible for these vases? - suggestions please

I'll post the label picture over the weekend.

Oh yes apologies to anyone who likes all the information at once!

later

Mike
 
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on September 03, 2009, 10:03:21 PM
the glass it self looks like Harrach and the decoration looks like Goldberg, Josephinhutte or Rachmann (and probably 90 others that I can't think of off the top of my head).

I think the glass itself looks like Harrach, from the green on the bottom and it's got that color that Harrach tends to have as well as an elegant shape.  

I have also seen decoration similar to this from Poschinger..oh, come to think of it  Moser also had a similar glass treatment but their green was usually on top.

But, I know what a slippery slope I am playing on :) Really, it seems like without a mark or a catalog page that matches exactly all glass attribution is a slippery slope.  


So, my guess is blank from Harrach decorated by another company. Either that or a Josephinhutte blank either decorated by Josephinhutte or another company. For some reason, the decoration doesn't seem like Harrach to me.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: obscurities on September 03, 2009, 11:43:43 PM
Mike,

I would ask if they have pontils or are mold blown....  ? Are the rims enameled or silver overlay?  Other than a label, are there any other marks on the underside?  Those questions being asked...... Here is an answers unless you respond with something that would change my mind.   :thup:  My response is based on the appearance of the glass.

I would agree that the blanks look like Harrach blanks.....  Moser would have had the color scheme reversed with the green up top. I have also gone through several books to see if I could locate another company with that color scheme, with any type of decor, and at least in my library, I can not find one.  I do have to say thought, that all the examples I can think of, or find examples of by Harrach in this color scheme are actually noticeably larger than these small vases.....

I also have to say that the aspect of a paper label on the piece has me quite interested in seeing it....

I will go with a Harrach blank, and decorated by another house (too many to choose one)....  Paper label applied by the decorating house.....

Craig

Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: KevinH on September 04, 2009, 01:35:53 AM
Interesting that the decoration is similar on both vases but also has noticeable differences, possibly suggesting these two were decorated by different workers, although probably in the same work place and at much the same time.

Might even be modern work out of ... well ... Eastern areas, perhaps?
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Bernard C on September 04, 2009, 02:29:27 AM
Do I play games like this!    ;D

I don't think anyone is within a million miles.   Mike wouldn't be playing this game unless it was both completely unexpected and quite fabulous.   Also you can eliminate some possibilities, like Liberty's, Manley, and Parkington, as it's taken Mike too long, and the solution has to be something that he has had to check out.   So I will go for a New York retailer's label, and CMoG have just confirmed that they sourced from Tiffany.

Well, if you're going to be wrong, why not do it in style ...............

Bernard C.  :angel:
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Galle on September 04, 2009, 04:58:08 AM
My very first thought when I saw this was that the glass is Harrach. I'm going to say decorated at Josephinenhutte.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 04, 2009, 07:56:58 AM
Hi

thanks for playing along

Bernard -you are a little wide of the mark- sadly it's not fabulous  -in fact the others are all quite warm. The label though is, I think very interesting and odd and not referenced anywhere I can find (eg Lexikon). It's also changed my knowedge a bit.

Craig - they have lovely polished pontils -rims are enamelled -one vase has a part label remaining and under it you can see a tiny indistinct gold squiggle -same as the enamelling. 

I'll let others play before posting the label shot

cheers
Mike
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Bernard C on September 04, 2009, 08:47:21 AM
Mike — Well, it was a nice thought!

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: krsilber on September 04, 2009, 08:22:38 PM
I hate to even hazard a guess...Loetz perhaps?  I dunno.  I'd say Moser because of all the little souvenir-type pieces they made, but it looks like there's silver on it, and apparently they didn't like to use silver because it tarnished.  The main reason I'm writing is to address the shading question.  While I agree that Moser generally shaded with color at the top, there are at least two signed examples in Baldwin Moser Artistic Glass of Moser's shading at the bottom, in plates 50 and 131.  So it's not a hard-and-fast rule.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Paul S. on September 04, 2009, 08:46:50 PM
from a total ignoramious  -  all I can say is that the green shading is so very Harrach.   But then that is far too obvious, so bound to be wrong.  Paul S.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on September 04, 2009, 08:49:58 PM
eh, I did say tends.. As far as I am concerned there are no hard and fast rules about anything. :)

as far as Baldwins book though , I am unsure of how far to trust it. I am also unsure of how far to trust the Moser factory. I know of at least one Loetz piece he attributes to Moser in that book.

Moser and Harrach are easy to confuse and there are fake Moser marks out there.

the company claims all moser is marked. end of story.

I had a piece that I would have SWORN was Moser because of Baldwins book. The decoration is very very similar. When I sent pics of this piece to the Moser factory they said no way, 1. it's not marked 2. it doesn't look like anything we ever did.

on the other hand. I have at least one unmarked moser piece that is unquestionably Moser... so that statement was false.


I am not really going anywhere with this other than to state a new found distrust of everything Moser at this point in my education :) I don't know how much of either to believe.


Comments, are of course, welcome.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: obscurities on September 04, 2009, 09:33:36 PM
as far as Baldwins book though , I am unsure of how far to trust it.  ..... I know of at least one Loetz piece he attributes to Moser in that book.

The book was issued in the late 90's....  our knowledge has come a long way since then. It would not surprise me to find that he had mistakenly attributed two Harrach pieces to Moser. Especially in light of the fact that they are the only two images I have heard of that have Moser coloration in that configuration....

the company claims all moser is marked. end of story. ........
on the other hand. I have at least one unmarked moser piece that is unquestionably Moser... so that statement was false.

Possibly through age and cleaning the mark has worn off. (just a thought) Have you ever submitted images of the piece to Moser for confirmation?

I only ask because I have two Vallerysthal vases, and the enamel signature on the bottom of one is quite strong and legible....  the other one has a very very faint and partial remnant of the signature left. Side by side they look like they were produced together.....

getting back to these vases ....

Mike, you say there is a gold squiggle underneath, the same as the enamel... The images make the enamel look silver on the pieces... at least on my screen. Is the enamel silver or gold? 

Regardless of enamel color, I am sticking with Harrach as the glass house.... 

Craig
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on September 04, 2009, 09:38:46 PM
oh yes, I have thought of the wearing off theory and I think it's perfectly valid. I haven't sent it to them for validation, it's shown in the PMC. it's an intaglio piece. but the thing that made me trust them is that they didn't think it was perfectly valid. Everyone knows old marks wear off.... even acid etched can be pretty impossible to see sometimes. I have a Steuben vase that I know is acid etched. the seller was able to show it to us in his shop. Since then I haven't been able to find it again. I saw it though.. I KNOW It's there.

Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 04, 2009, 10:38:12 PM
Hi

Craig - sorry the enamelling is gold but age and a little too much flash has made them look silver around the rim in the picture

Mike
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery -with added label
Post by: Mike M on September 05, 2009, 08:11:42 AM
Hi Folks

Thank you for all your comments and suggestions.

Well the weekend is here and I promised a label

Almost as cute as the vases and it must be 110 years old - almost exactly and don't be deceived by the photo it's about an inch across.

What it doesn't say is almost more interesting that what it does.

I'll add my thoughts later.

cheers

Mike
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on September 05, 2009, 09:26:04 AM
have you emailed Moser with it to see if they have any comment on the sticker? I think it was 1893 when they built their own glass house. Before that they did source from Harrach, of course it could also be moser by moser.

What are your thoughts on this piece?
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: obscurities on September 05, 2009, 03:37:24 PM
Mike, Are you aware of, or have you previously seen any Moser work with a paper label of any kind?  Are they known to have used paper labels at all?

I find it interesting if one Googles "Glasfabrik Karlsbad" in quotes there are many references to Moser glass with acid stamps....   if you add "paper label" as an additional parameter in it's own set of quotes the result returned is zero. 

I guess my other question, as I do not know the answer... are there records of any other glass houses in Karlsbad at the time... even small houses?  What about the possibility of a small house adding such a label.  You know, a 19th Century knock off!!

All it really translates to say is Glass Factory Karlsbad...   Something we now, and probably then, associated with Moser production.

I am interested in your thoughts......

Craig
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Galle on September 05, 2009, 03:44:49 PM
Moser did use stickers that said only Glasfabrik Karlsbad, as documented in Moser, 1857-1997, published by the factory, sometimes in conjunction with other marks back in the 1880s to 1890s. The Moser book does not show this one, however. It could very well be an undocumented early label. I would recommend emailing the Moser glassworks. There is a contact form on their website:

http://www.moser-glass.com/en/support/contact
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: chopin-liszt on September 05, 2009, 03:59:40 PM
 :o

And there was me, coming late to this, (but from the images) going to go with "something tacky and modern, a la Mackintosh, from a high street gift shop full of smelly candles".... :-[
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 05, 2009, 05:35:29 PM
Hi

thanks for all your comments

Time for my thoughts.

As many of you have said this is clearly a Harrach piece of glass -the way the green goes to clear is not Moser, its a classic Harrach shape -also, as many have pointed out, the colour goes the wrong way.

The enamelling is, I'm pretty certain Moser -I've had many pieces similarly enamelled but with added acorns -a Moser motif -(I was very interested in the Josephenehutte suggestions - I'm obviously not aware enough of their work)

But with that image I can't imagine this being produced earlier than 1895 more likely 1899/1900 -Its very Nouveau - years after Moser glass works was set up and supposedly they'd shunned other makers of blanks -I'd been told they even took Harrach to court over this colourway.

There was only one Glass works in Karlsbad, it took Moser forever to get the permission, although there were supposedly a number of other glass engravers. The label I'm sure is Moser.

So I think here is Moser, c1900 still buying in blanks from Harrach, enamelling them and putting on their labels -but without adding the word MOSER. I wonder what else they did not make themselves?

Now that's not in the glass history books

great little vases -possibly unique label -thanks for all your considerable expertise

cheers

Mike




Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Galle on September 05, 2009, 06:04:45 PM
I'll just throw this in as food for thought - there was another glass decorator in Karlsbad using blanks that I have always believed were from Harrach, and that's Tischer. Every Tischer piece I've seen, though, was marked Tischer Karlsbad, and was painted over opaque white or cream colored glass. I have never seen any documentation or background on the Tischer company.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 05, 2009, 06:10:52 PM
Now that is interesting.

But would Moser have allowed them to mark pieces - Glasfabrik Karlsbad?

I'm still tending towards Moser -for that style of enamelling and wording on the label

Interestingly the shape and form of the label is very like ones done by Harrach

cheers

Mike
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Galle on September 05, 2009, 06:27:35 PM
Oh I agree with you, Mike... I just always find it interesting how these Harrach blanks made their way around. I have a Harrach piece on my website that is marked, and another piece in the same exact shape (different color) that is undecorated and also unmarked. I feel like I know for certain that the blank is by Harrach, as are many other pieces I've seen made with this same type of glass, but are also unmarked.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: obscurities on September 05, 2009, 06:53:48 PM
Mike,

I find it fascinating...

Since the words "Glasfabrik Karlsbad" are really pretty generic, maybe they could not control the use of such generic words, only the use of their brand "Moser".

Maybe the similarity of the label to a Harrach label could be explained this way also....  We are going to buy Harrach blanks and decorate them. Then we are going to produce a Harrach style label to put on the underside with our marks. And since we are a little "factory" in Karlsbad (or close) we are going to state that on our Harrach style label since it may not truly be a trademark of any kind....  Then if accused by Moser of anything they had plausible deniability......  

If there was a company called Tischer that there is no documentation about, there may have also been unknown decorators we know nothing of at all... until now.

Although it is a "stretch", it would not surprise me in the least.  

There are references to Moser pieces with only Glasfabrik Karlsbad, and then there are references to the same mark with the addition of the word Moser. Maybe the addition of the Moser brand was in response to other labels that showed up with the Glasfabrik Karlsbad on it.  Maybe they had to add Moser because they could not control use of the other two words.

Kind of like labeling something "Auto Factory Detroit", and adding Ford to it when Chevy came to town.

Why don't you send an image of the label only to Moser and see what they say about it...  Crop it so the glass is not really visible and see what they say about the label only....    Maybe tell them it is on a piece of "Moser" you own and was curious as to the history of the label as you could not find it in the book they published, or any others.  Ask if they have records indicating what the production marks on it indicated....  

You know... kind of the reverse of what you did here....  present the label to them under the "strong assumption it is Moser", ask them to decipher the label markings.......  then show them the glass..... if they ask.....

Could be quite interesting......

Craig
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 05, 2009, 08:35:17 PM
Hi

I might well go to Moser - but alas I've found them a little unpredictable at times (especially when its a hybrid ie Harrach Glass and Moser Enamel)

The interesting mute point is whether Glasfabrik meaning glassworks implies where glass is actually made or just worked on -Moser was the only glass maker in Karlsbad there were supposedly many engravers and presumable decorators'.

I'm with Warren I think Tischer -is unlikely

if only we had a time machine

meanwhile trying to work it out from the evidence is fun

Cheers

Mike 
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: obscurities on September 05, 2009, 08:48:31 PM
Don't let them know the blank is Harrach....  Just send them an image of the label and ask them to decipher "Their" label for you.  Don't ask them if it is theirs. Just ask them what their label tells "you and them" about the production of "their" piece.   If they give you an answer claiming ownership of the label and associated production based on what it says.... then show them the glass....

Craig
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on September 06, 2009, 01:12:58 AM
to the best of my knowledge the art nouveau movement had started as early as 1890. I don't think it's impossible that this piece is from the early part of the nouveau era. I've seen other dual shaded pieces like this attributed to moser from that era. I am sure the shading thing is not a hard and fast rule of any kind, just most typically seen..
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 06, 2009, 09:35:33 AM
Hi

I was told once that there was a court case taken by Moser over Harrach using this colour way. (and that Moser keep it out of their history)

Its a long story but supposedly the 'solomans' Judgement was 'Clear down to colour' is uniquely Moser
'colour down to clear' can be anyones. -This does seem to hold.

Also the way the colour changes is different between Harrach and Moser -in these little vases you can see almost an edge to the green -in Moser the transition is much smoother.

The first appearances of Art Nouveau are hard to track-Tiffany was definitely producing very nouveau shapes in early 1892 and Bing opened his shop on Boxing day 1893 -full of nouveau. I'm not so sure when it would have hit Karlsbad. Maybe be these nouveau iris images were around much earlier -you never know.

many many thanks

Mike
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on September 06, 2009, 10:43:45 AM
one of the books I was reading said the glass shops tended to respond to trends within the week. (I am sure it's an exaggeration) but if they were selling by popular demand then it stands to reason they could have been putting this stuff out very early.


So if Moser won a lawsuit on the color on the bottom clear on the top clearly they were producing the stuff. that's a really interesting little tidbit. I wonder what year that was approx. I see what you mean on the way the color blends between the two. I had never really differentiated on that before.

So thanks for posting this  little learning thread here. :)
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 06, 2009, 11:01:35 AM
Hi

The story of the court case alas came with no date, heard it years ago - never had it confirmed, but it rings true.

The story started with the fact that Moser had been bored with all the clear blanks they'd had to buy-in over the years, so when they set up their works they started their obsession with colour. Early on they produced this colour graduation effect and were very annoyed to find it quickly copied by Harrach and others -ie within weeks. (BTW Moser did do for very special pieces colour to clear and back to colour)

I always assumed the court case was c1900 -1905. But you never know maybe it was earlier.

I must say from everyone's comments I too have learnt a lot (gotta go investigate Josephenenhutte better)

cheers and thanks

Mike
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: obscurities on September 06, 2009, 02:07:40 PM
Mike, Please keep us posted as to whether you will send the label image to Moser, and what the conversation is.

This has been quite interesting, and as you said... in a glass geek kinda of way...lots of fun!!

Thanks, Craig
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 06, 2009, 02:14:30 PM
will do!
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 08, 2009, 08:41:30 AM
Hi folk

Well its official -as we thought -its a Moser label

They said the numbers on it would have been the production order and price -1.50 somethings!

Sadly they did not suggest a date for the label -I've prompted them on that point

So we have a Harrach, colour change piece enameled and labeled by Moser.

-Craig thanks for the prompting to check with them

cheers

Mike
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: obscurities on September 08, 2009, 01:28:52 PM
Mike, Did they ask to see the glass, or did they just respond when they saw the label and lay claim to it being theirs......?? 
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 08, 2009, 01:45:19 PM
As was suggested

I just showed them the label -and they owned it!
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: obscurities on September 08, 2009, 02:36:21 PM
Maybe you could follow up with an image of the vases and ask them if seeing the glass would help to date the label....  All in the "interest" of establishing a time line for both them, and you....  Craig

Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 09, 2009, 09:39:32 PM
Hi

They came back with a date for the label (that's still all I've shown them)

They said labels like that could be almost any date and may have been is use as late as 1935.

Well Karlsbad changed its name in 1937 so that's no great surprise.

I'm guessing they don't have much in the way of records for paper labels

So we get no further

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Galle on September 09, 2009, 11:37:37 PM
Labels like that? I wonder what other ones are out there that haven't been discovered yet? Thanks for the update, Mike - one more factoid to add to the reference files.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: krsilber on September 10, 2009, 08:09:21 PM
Maybe I missed something, but it seems to be complicating things unnecessarily to say for certain that the blank is Harrach.  True that Baldwin's book has errors, but it seems a stretch to assume that he was duped by three fake Moser signatures (found another signed example), all of which are on bottom-colored pieces.  And why would Moser buy from a rival firm when they had the capability to produce their own (assuming a post-1895 manufacture)?  The sharp color transition may be simply a matter of the vases being so small that there wasn't leeway to blow or stretch it to make it less abrupt.  And there's nothing about the shape distinctive enough to attribute to any particular manufacturer.

It could very well be a Harrach blank, I just don't see why there's any certainty about it.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Mike M on September 10, 2009, 09:14:22 PM
Kristi

Thanks

Of course you are right there is no certainty its a Harrach blank

The colour change is quite distinctive, and Harrach like, but as you said it could be a function of the size (and age actually). I've had other signed Moser bits that small that showed a normal Moser graduation -but being signed they were probably a few years later.

We can't even be sure it's a Moser label, with what it says they might just have assumed it was theirs.

We have to work with the balance of probabilities, and you quite right to pull me up and correct that.

but, for me at least, the sense of discovery is still great fun.

Mike
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: krsilber on September 11, 2009, 12:15:08 AM
"Balance of probabilities" - I like that!  So much of glass attribution is based on it.  It can be awfully frustrating for someone like me, who likes cold hard facts and is habitually overly skeptical (though neither stops me from positing some pretty wild hypotheses!).

"for me at least, the sense of discovery is still great fun"  - yes indeedy! 
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on December 22, 2012, 03:06:23 AM
to go back to tischer a little. Tischer also marked ceramics. They were almost certainly an export firm. I don't think they were doing decorating in Karlsbad, I think they were exporting from there. Some of it is quite clearly marked in the Moser fashion, Some of it quite clearly in Harrach. I think I've seen some that are documented decoration from Heckert (who was often sourced from Harrach as well)

Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: krsilber on December 22, 2012, 05:10:32 AM
I think these are a couple pieces produced en masse for the export/tourist? market, done entirely by Moser in the style of Harrach, Josephinenhuette, etc., capitalizing on demand.  Small and inexpensive mimics, if you will.  Someone mentioned they're slightly different, and that's true, more so than you would expect of natural variation by one person.  Look at the difference in the way the stems intertwine near the bottom - one vase is done clearly (over-under-over), the other is fudged.  Lack of quality control.

When I saw the label this time, the first thing I thought is, hey!  It's dated!  Could the 7/22 be month and year?  I think they could easily be later than turn-of-the-century. 

One thing I was very keen to observe when visiting the Passau Museum was the verity of the generalization that Harrach had the color on the bottom, and Moser on the top.  My impression is that it may be a trend, but it's far from universal.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: Galle on December 22, 2012, 06:03:23 AM
I think it's more accurate to say that Tischer was a refiner of both glass and ceramics.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on December 22, 2012, 12:15:24 PM
I am not sure they were a refiner. It could be either way I think.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: flying free on January 07, 2013, 05:01:54 PM
I have a question. 
Am I reading this right that this hasn't been definitely confirmed as Moser?

I'm trying to identify an iridescent cabinet vase that where the surface iridescence appears to be identical to Fritz Heckert iridescent vases.  Mine is not enamelled just plain.  In the course of my searches I came across this vase (see link)  on Collectors Weekly identified as Moser.  It has a very similar iridescent surface finish to mine, hence my interest. 
I found it difficult to read the mark but it looks like it could read 'GLASFABRIK KARLSBAD'  (please correct me if I'm wrong).  Is this an identified mark for Moser please?
Edited later to add that I've enlarged the mark on the Collectors Weekly vasek and have found it confirmed as a Moser mark on the Great Glass site.

I'm just wondering where the blank vase on the Collector's Weekly site originated if so - I'm wondering if the enamelling is Moser but the blank not?
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/64363-moser-egyptian-vase

Many thanks
m


Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on January 11, 2013, 06:12:24 AM
That piece from CW is mine. The mark is absolutely guaranteed  Moser.  there is an M on either side of the goblet in the circle, dated from 1898-1919. The marks are shown in the second Truitt book at the back of the book.
Because of the dating of this piece (based on when truitts say that mark was used) this was glass produced by Moser.


Josephinenhutte had a line with the cyprus iridescent based on Roman shapes. is it maybe that?

http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-440.html

Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: flying free on January 11, 2013, 08:48:40 AM
Alisa I didn't realise that if it had the mark on it meant it was definitely Moser made glass, so thank you  :)
I have been investigating Josephinenhutte and Fritz Heckert but so far I've not found a match.  Mind you I don't have the books either yet  ;D


regarding the Tischer discussion I came across this the other day but couldn't remember which thread the discussion was in.  It's marked in a very detailed way on the base with what I think is a Tischer stamp and also enamelled letters and numbers.-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251208970593&item=251208970593&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466

m
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on January 11, 2013, 09:57:53 AM
Moser made their own glass after 1895 I think it was. So if a mark is dated to after that period it's pretty certain that the glass was made by moser.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: flying free on January 11, 2013, 11:03:56 AM
Thanks - I was just curious because I also assumed that Fritz Heckert made their own glass after their own furnace was built, but
 I have been reading that Harrach was supplying glass to other manufacturers as I understand it? 
Therefore I guess I didn't want to assume that a manufacturer only used their own blanks even though they had their own furnaces. 
So in the example I gave of Fritz Heckert I wondered if they had continued to use Josephinenhutte blanks to back up their production for example, although that is pure speculation as I haven't read anywhere that happened, and Fritz Heckert were clearly a huge concern.  But then so were Legras in France and it is in conjunction with them that I've read Harrach may have been supplying glass to them.

And in fact I've just had a Harrach vase confirmed by Harrach but apparently it was produced for another company, which I believe from my research was a manufacturer.  I've not had time to delve into that yet though.

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Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on January 11, 2013, 01:15:35 PM
all that is true.
.
Harrach also supplied glass for Fritz Heckert.

Harrach also sometimes sold lines they made for other companies. I have a signed piece of heckert Jodphur with the feather plume.

Never say never. From what I understand the companies had no problem buying blanks off another company if they were low on something and needed to get product out the door.. but as far as it being standard practice for Moser they lit up their own furnace in 1895.

Harrach also sometimes flat out copied other companies. the Harrach book shows how they flat out copied AJ exactly. There is also the infamous Royal Flemish copy they did. They copied teh guba ducks.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: flying free on January 11, 2013, 04:32:23 PM
Thanks Alisa.  Is  there evidence they supplied glass either blanks or decorated to Fritz Heckert after they lit their own furnace though?  does  your signed vase date to after Fritz Heckert built their own furnace?

And do we know for sure Moser did not use Harrach or other suppliers for blanks once they had their own manufacturing capability? 

I'm not saying they did, but I feel the question needs to be asked if it seems there are comments that Harrach supplied to other large manufacturers.  Certainly in the case of my vase the evidence I've been given  appears to show they were making blanks for a manufacturer (shown in Truitts as a manufacturer).

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Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on January 12, 2013, 01:51:33 AM
I don't think Heckert ever powered on their furnace ;) Very different story from Moser.
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: flying free on January 12, 2013, 08:04:00 AM
Thanks Alisa and sorry but we may have a language misunderstanding on my side  :) did you  mean by your comment Fritz Heckert never produced their own glass? 

I may have misunderstood what it said in Truitt's then as it says there page 70 - 'Until 1889 Heckert specialised in replicas of 17th and 18th century enamelled glass, decorated in the "Old German" style. In 1889, he acquired his own glass hut and began to produce iridized glass decorated in Art Nouveau style.'   (source Truitt's Collectible Bohemian Glass 1880-1940 - my underlining)
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Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: azelismia on January 12, 2013, 09:19:43 AM
no, I just meant that for all the glass that they bought from all the other companies that they may as well have never turned it on. I don't know what their actual production was if any at the heckert furnace but they bought heavily from other companies. Loetz, Harrach and Josephinenhuette all sold a lot of glass to heckert. Their Refinery I think was much larger than their glass works.

My statement was ironic. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awD1gtpdWIA
Title: Re: a little bohemian mystery
Post by: flying free on January 12, 2013, 09:22:45 AM
 ;D thanks - I thought it might have been but you know how myths start  ;D

Love the link ;D  ;D   ;D
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