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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Murano & Italy Glass => Topic started by: ardy on December 08, 2009, 09:58:59 PM

Title: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: ardy on December 08, 2009, 09:58:59 PM
I have noticed a distinct increase in the number of people watching items I am selling or buying on ebay. There also appears to be an average improvement in prices by about 10-15%. Anybody else noticed that the market for good murano is improving?
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: langhaugh on December 08, 2009, 11:25:13 PM
I agree that some types of Murano are selling at an increased price, but I'm not sure it's generally true. I've been trying to think how I would categorize the types that are selling, and I can't. I suppose you could do a statistical analysis. Not my cup of fun. I've also noticed that the starting prices have increased, but the number of pieces selling have gone down. I find that I'm paying either under $20 or over $100. I definitely find that there are far fewer pieces that I can buy where I'm the only bidder recognizing a vague or incorrect attribution. Isn't this the season where business on eBay is at a peak?

I've some Murano that I'll have to sell some time (it's pretty generic stuff), and I'm waiting a while still.

David

Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: TxSilver on December 08, 2009, 11:41:59 PM
I haven't noticed any consistent trends in the general Murano market. Some weeks are up and then it goes back down. I have noticed that Barovier is selling fairly well, while Archimede Seguso things are still lagging. That could change the moment that I write this.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: ardy on December 09, 2009, 12:14:50 AM
Maybe my observations are as accurate as the global warming scientists have been. My thoughts about this market currently comes under the banner of 'look out the window, it seems warmer outside'.

Will have to apply more scientific endeavour to this analysis.

Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: TxSilver on December 09, 2009, 12:53:23 AM
I forgot to add that Fratelli Toso has been really lagging. There are unbelievable bargains out there. I think that many of the buyers must be new to Murano, so zero in on names they have been seeing a lot lately. I don't know if this is true or not.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: ardy on December 09, 2009, 01:07:08 AM
Hi Anita that doesn't help me. I want the Archimede Seguso market to fall in a heap. :24:

I will track some of the sales closer and try to do a bit of analysis.

Unfortunately most of the ebay market is unpredictable or appears like that. It seems to me to be driven by quality and colour. ie If an item is genuine and it is in a colour that is wanted it seems to go for a fair amount, if the colour is not right it will sell for peanuts regardless of how rare or well made it is. Is that a similar thing to what happens in the US?

regards
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: ardy on December 09, 2009, 01:13:02 AM
David I agree with you. A 6" latticino plate went through without a bid for $19.99 and the seller just relisted it at Buy it now $120.

There are some odd things happening and my friend who is an antiques dealer reckons the great deals that were around last year have dried up as people are not pressed to sell antiques, they can just hold onto them until the market picks up. May be the same with good glass.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: kane_u_pain on December 09, 2009, 08:08:38 AM
I have been keeping a small eye on the murano prices lately. It seems to be all over the place. Trying to figure out 'is this a good time to sell 2 or 3 pieces and put the money into something better' or just wait till things look better financially for people. I have been holding of on selling about 10-15 pieces at the moment (i need the space to collect some other pieces). Plus i find it very hard to depart with what i have now.

I have noticed Whitefriars is a bit down on ebay UK, whereas the Australian market for Whitefriars (which is rare to see the pieces i want), go for prices much better than in the UK, even after currency conversion!

I recently bought two good murano pieces, 1 paid more that i intended to spend (but I had to have it), and the other one went for a song! I was quite happy about that. So it all evened out in the end. :thup:

I agree ardy, i always hope the Archimede Seguso market goes belly up! Spend spend spend spend spend!


Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: aslan7 on December 09, 2009, 05:17:25 PM
I am fairly new to Murano but have been following and buying art glass for a while. It seems that Ebay is an irrational source where misattributions abound, and where good things are often ignored and bad things fetch high prices. Some of the local dealers who sell glass here in the Philadelphia area have not been doing particularly well and are eager to make deals by spontaneously offering discounts and dropping tax. Unless something is really exceptional I refuse to pay collector prices because plenty of good material regularly shows up in junk stores for great prices. I found an old Mandruzato vase for $15 and a nice Fratelli Toso dish for $11 within walking distance from my house! There is plenty of stuff out there to be found and it does not seem as if many people are looking for it.

Finally, being in the art business, I am shocked at how ignorant some local dealers are. I am very likely to get an incredible deal through one of them because they know so little about the material. One has a Barbini "console" bowl that is misidentified as a Barovier. He has a Barbini aventurine seashell with a Weil label priced at $950 while other very unusual items are in the $100 range. A woman down the street told me she was an expert (I always play dumb), and informed me that a duck she had was a "Segmerso," obviously confusing Seguso and sommerso. Yet farther down the street a woman sold me a beautiful mint Fylgsfors Fantasia vase that she insisted was Kosta even though it was very clearly signed on the bottom. Somewhere else I bought a small Flygsfors basket that the dealer swore up and down was Murano, again ignoring the etched signature on the base. This is indeed a strange market.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: tam bam on December 09, 2009, 08:24:59 PM
I have to agree with Ardy on this subject.  I have also noticed that people are more willing to spend more on Murano if the the color is right.  If it is plain and not much color but quality made and signed then it could go for peanuts (which is good for me, because I have picked up a lot of good pieces this way) but I hate that people don't understand the importance of the piece itself and are only looking at the color, but that is just me.  I guess my art teachers in school taught me to look at art in a different perspective and not just by color alone. 

I guess I shouldn't complain though because it really is good for my wallet. 

tam bam
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: langhaugh on December 10, 2009, 06:42:47 AM
It's interesting how talking about something influences how one sees things. I haven't bought much Murano for a while--busy buying Czech and Scandi. In fact, the only piece I've bought in the last three months was an opalescent Galliano Ferro bird for $9.99. However, in the last three days, I've bought seven pieces. Nothing earth shattering, but some FT, I hope some Seguso, perhaps a BT, but all pretty solid, at least second shelf Murano. One FT piece was a pinwheel zanfirico bowl in maroon/chocolate for $30.00. I noticed a huge FT console bowl going for $56, a blue Barbini basket for $46 and a pink one with no offers at $30.00. A signed Venini fazolletto was about $100.00. True a Venini inciso piece went for over $700.00, but the reasonable and even rarer high prices are the exception. I'm going to pay closer attention from now one. It still seems like a good time to stock up. BTW, three of the pieces were under $14.00. I worry about postage now more than prices.

David
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: johnphilip on December 10, 2009, 08:10:35 AM
I have been selling a lot of nice Italian pieces over the last year some quite heavy , i always get emails re postage to USA and then get hardly any bids from the USA , but at least the MVM Cappellin / Venini i am selling at the moment is very light weight glass so maybe that will go Stateside . jp    stgeorgio.2007 :  :angel: thup:
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: tam bam on December 10, 2009, 11:47:36 AM
I've never bought anything from overseas but I was very interested in a Franco Moretti vase not too long ago that was in the United Kingdom but I contacted the seller and the customs charges were going to be about half of the price of the vase so I never did bid on the vase.  Shucks! :cry:  I really wanted it too.  I too worry about shipping but I am willing to pay a reasonable amount if I really want the item but the customs charges overseas I really worry about.  Can someone please explain the customs charges a little better to me and maybe I want shy away so much to the overseas glass so much anymore? 

tam bam 
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: TxSilver on December 10, 2009, 01:54:34 PM
Tami, we're lucky in the USA. We don't have any custom charges. No import or export fees. All we have to pay right now is the price and shipping. The seller doesn't add custom charges. They are added by the countries the package is sent to and are paid by the buyer when he/she receives the package. I wish all of the countries had free trade. Some European countries have to pay 25-50% in import fees and taxes.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: langhaugh on December 10, 2009, 04:13:41 PM
Tami:

I can't explain US customs duty to you; in fact, I can't even explain Canadian. It seems incredibly arbitrary, sometimes I pay it and sometimes I don't. I've never paid duty on anything from the UK, but usually pay when it's from Germany. I seldom pay when it's the cheapest of the USPS services, but always pay for UPS. I just see it as the fickle hand of the glass god. It's never as high as even 25%, though.


David
 
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: tam bam on December 10, 2009, 08:52:43 PM
Thanks so much David and Anita.  The seller was trying to explain it to me but wasn't sure if he was telling me correctly or not so I wanted to be sure before I bought anything overseas that is why I shyed away.  I should have asked on the forum but I didn't.  Oh well. 

Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: ardy on December 10, 2009, 09:53:08 PM
I buy a fair bit from the USA but the shipping charges are so variable it kills it. For a normal first class mail it is around 13-19 us dollars up to a weight limit of 3Ibs I think. I have had quotes for small items I am interested in for up to $64. Conversely I got a quote for $16.70 for a 8" vase I wanted and bought and this amount is what was on the postage mark. :chky:

Why would people selling stuff overseas think that we want it sent Fedex? I don't know anyone who needs this stuff in 4 days from the other side of the planet.

I have never had to pay any customs charges YET! Let's hope Australian customs dont read this thread.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: sandysfancy on December 10, 2009, 09:59:17 PM
Quote
There are some odd things happening and my friend who is an antiques dealer reckons the great deals that were around last year have dried up as people are not pressed to sell antiques, they can just hold onto them until the market picks up.

I am in USA and many, many dealers are getting out of the business all together. Shipping goes up again in January and online as well as brick and mortar shops it is a gamble at best to many of them.
Pros and cons of that in many ways. Everyone wants a deal but when it is so competitive the value and history of antiques gets kicked to the curb I find it personally terrible.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: ardy on December 10, 2009, 10:32:47 PM
Yes Sandy it is awful but it must be a temporary thing. THese things are not replaceable and they were made with great skill and art. Eventually all this will balance as the demand for good antiques takes off in a non stop growth of humanity. May not be in our lifetime.

A friend of mine who is an antique dealer of 30+ years and came from a family of antique dealers is currently surviving on his cooking skills and the occasional profitable deal. I think that says it all. Still he will not sell the good stuff (Including his murano) he has until the market picks up.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: TxSilver on December 10, 2009, 11:33:34 PM
I buy a fair bit from the USA but the shipping charges are so variable it kills it. For a normal first class mail it is around 13-19 us dollars up to a weight limit of 3Ibs I think. I have had quotes for small items I am interested in for up to $64. Conversely I got a quote for $16.70 for a 8" vase I wanted and bought and this amount is what was on the postage mark...

Shipping is variable. A lot of it is because of padding. Most, however, is because first class international is a very risky way to ship. It cannot be tracked or insured. So if someone pays using PayPal, all the buyer has to do is report it as not received. There is no confirmation number, so no proof it was sent. PayPal immediately takes the money out of the seller's account. Unfortunately, there are some people who abuse the PayPal buyer protection, so the person who sends first class is taking on risk. Personally, I will send less expensive things first class, but anything over $100 has to go priority mail or better. The cost of priority mail is outrageous, but provides the seller with some protection. There are third-party insurers for first class, but it can be time consuming and iffy. It would be nice if everyone in the world was honest. Postage would be so much cheaper.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: TxSilver on December 10, 2009, 11:49:34 PM
One thing I would like to mention about the sales slump is that collectibles are similar to cash in the way it flows. Many people buying online are resellers. If no one is buying from them, soon they stop buying. When they do, the flow of glass slows down, with only the true collectors picking off a piece here and there if the piece is reasonably priced. It may explain why Barovier and Seguso VA (true stuff) is doing reasonably well, while sales of other things are faltering. Glass sales often pick up in January. I wish I was able to buy right now, but it's hard to buy (or sell) anything when moving across country. I would buy second-shelf glass by Archimede Seguso and Barbini and third-shelf things by Fratelli Toso. I wouldn't be surprised if the market for these things increase next year.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: ardy on December 10, 2009, 11:53:21 PM
Ah! so that is the reason is it Anita. Makes sense to me now.

The other side of this coin is the seller could sensibly make the claim that after it has been posted it is th buyers responsibility and then the feedback score would tell the true story subject to paypals internal, unknowable, processes. If paypal is an automatic refund process why dont dishonest people claim it was broken on arrival?

Just asking questions Anita as I dont know myself.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: ardy on December 10, 2009, 11:58:28 PM
Yes Anita - One persons sales slump is another persons buying opportunity. And it works the other way as well.

I am starting to think that in a year or two us buyers are going to kick ourselves for not buying more. There was a 3 piece Seguso perfume set on one of the auctions that I missed and it went for $US45 those sort of things will become very rare next year, I think.  :cry:

regards
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: TxSilver on December 11, 2009, 12:11:13 AM
Ah! so that is the reason is it Anita. Makes sense to me now.

The other side of this coin is the seller could sensibly make the claim that after it has been posted it is th buyers responsibility and then the feedback score would tell the true story subject to paypals internal, unknowable, processes. If paypal is an automatic refund process why dont dishonest people claim it was broken on arrival?

Just asking questions Anita as I dont know myself.

Really a good comment. It is the seller's responsibility to deliver the goods to you in the expected condition. The seller owns the merchandise until you accept it as satisfactory. So if something arrives broken, it belongs to the seller and you should get all your money back under the law. There is a moral consideration here, though. If one had a choice between insured and uninsured shipping and chose no insurance, who is really responsible? According to PayPal, the seller is. So a seller has to ask how much he/she is willing to lose if a package is lost, broken, or received by a con-person. (This is starting to sound like the Cafe, so I better curb my pondering.) There have been perhaps-dishonest people who claimed something was not delivered or broken and PayPal refunded their money. I'm glad I haven't had this problem!
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: langhaugh on December 11, 2009, 02:00:46 AM
Shipping costs. One of the things I do when I buy something from the US is to state my preference for it to be sent first class international. I also ask the sender to check my feedback so that they get some sense I'm not a scam artist, and I state that I am willing to take responsibility for the product. That last step is taking a risk, but so far I haven't been burned. The two times I've tried to collect on insurance it's proved almost impossible, at least it is if you're in Canada collecting from the USA. The extra cost is not worth it. I agree with Ardy about people who think you want it tomorrow and ship it Fedex. I can wait, given the cost difference.

David

Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: janettekay on December 12, 2009, 02:30:25 PM
I buy a fair bit from the USA but the shipping charges are so variable it kills it. For a normal first class mail it is around 13-19 us dollars up to a weight limit of 3Ibs I think. I have had quotes for small items I am interested in for up to $64. Conversely I got a quote for $16.70 for a 8" vase I wanted and bought and this amount is what was on the postage mark...

Shipping is variable. A lot of it is because of padding. Most, however, is because first class international is a very risky way to ship. It cannot be tracked or insured. So if someone pays using PayPal, all the buyer has to do is report it as not received. There is no confirmation number, so no proof it was sent. PayPal immediately takes the money out of the seller's account. Unfortunately, there are some people who abuse the PayPal buyer protection, so the person who sends first class is taking on risk. Personally, I will send less expensive things first class, but anything over $100 has to go priority mail or better. The cost of priority mail is outrageous, but provides the seller with some protection. There are third-party insurers for first class, but it can be time consuming and iffy. It would be nice if everyone in the world was honest. Postage would be so much cheaper.

I have to agree ...I will only ship Priority...unfortunatly..for the protection of tracking...and yes-postage rates are outrageous...and killing business for so many..

Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: TxSilver on December 12, 2009, 07:37:31 PM
Oy, priority mail is going up again in January. Parcel post is due for another increase in May. I started shipping things in 2004 and prices have almost doubled since that time. I get horribly embarrassed when shipping is $20-50US, but I know it is not my fault. I figured that pretty soon I may be able to buy a package an airplane seat for about the same cost as shipping.   >:(

I noticed that bid amounts on eBay started to go down in 2007 when there was the huge increase in shipping. So the money going to the seller was diverted to the postal service. Strange enough, I can receive a package from London for the same or less than one from New York, with equivalent insurance coverage. USPS might do well to model their services on those of the UK. (Canada also has reasonable rates, IME.)
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: ardy on December 12, 2009, 10:09:20 PM
Yes shipping is getting expensive. I just sold a nikon lens and the shipping costs to Europe was $AUS18.70 ($US16) and it weighed under 500g. Although I could have shipped something for 2kgs for the same money.

It is stopping me buying some of the Seguso pieces I would like. Your internal rates in the USA seem to be very reasonable, so occasionally I buy something and send it to my brother in Texas and he ships it on to me using first class mail and that is cheaper.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: Carolyn Preston on December 14, 2009, 02:25:03 AM
I seldom pay when it's the cheapest of the USPS services, but always pay for UPS.

David, that's the evilness of UPS. They always charge for border fees for everything they bring across the border whether or not we in Canada need to pay duty for it. I never use UPS from the US to Canada if I have any choice whatsoever.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: obscurities on December 14, 2009, 05:56:15 PM
I think that USPS rates have gone up substantially to compensate for the increase in larger and lighter packages being shipped more frequently. All of the flat rate boxes are well under 1 cu foot in dimension. If you ship a box under a cubic foot in dimension the domestic rates are reasonable. If you exceed that dimension, then they start going up exponentially. If I ship an item that weighs 6lbs from Seattle to Kentucky for example, and the package measures 12x12x12 inches the rate is $19.60. If I ship the same weight to the same place and the package measures 12x12x13 inches, the rate goes to $29.95.  The 12x12x13 inch 6 lb package is $13.20 by FedEx.

If I can cram it safely into a 12x12x8 flat rate box it is $13.95, and in that box it can weigh up to 70 lbs domestically (a cheap way to ship your gold bars, silver bullion, or large rolls of lead solder.  ;D).

The same sorts of ratios occur for international shipping also, except the flat rate box max is 20 lbs.

I think that what the USPS is tell us is that they want to ship small compact items, and if you want to ship something large, especially domestically, use a different carrier. (FedEx, UPS)

International quotes can vary depending on what the seller is doing on their end. Many sellers will not use first class mail as it is not insurable and can not be tracked, and with Paypal rules the way they are, a seller is putting themselves in jeopardy using it.  It is really personal preference for the seller. Since it is their risk, they are the ones deciding if the sale is worth the risk of offering inexpensive international shipping or not. A buyer simply has to say...  "I did not get it" and the seller is out postage, listing fees and the selling price of the item. 

Craig

Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: johnphilip on December 14, 2009, 06:24:31 PM
I have a Venini Capellin piece fully signed coming up soon , tonight with one bid  :cry: the opening bid from Italy so we will know if things are picking up . stgeorgio.2007  No reserve
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: TxSilver on December 14, 2009, 08:35:39 PM
...If I can cram it safely into a 12x12x8 flat rate box it is $13.95, and in that box it can weigh up to 70 lbs domestically (a cheap way to ship your gold bars, silver bullion, or large rolls of lead solder. 

Craig, the problem with the flat rate boxes is that they are not 8" tall. They are about 5". So unless a piece of glass is slim, there is a chance it will be broken. Typical vases with 3-5" bulbs can't be shipped without risking breakage. I find flat rate shipping of limited use when shipping glass.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: obscurities on December 15, 2009, 12:47:21 AM
Anita, I thought you would get a sense for my sarcasm......   ;D   shipping bullion and all.... 

I have never used a flat rate box.... They afford little protection.... I have also found when I tried to use one, that it is generally either less expensive to ship it regular priority, or far less money to use FedEx....  They are too small for the types of items I generally sell....

Craig
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: ardy on December 16, 2009, 09:25:21 PM
Alison wanted a Seguso perfume bottle about 3.5" tall from the USA. I guessed it would go for about $45 and it went for $90. I have lost out to several serious over bids lately which is a part of why I think the market is going up but only for good stuff.

May have to adjust my bid technique as I have never missed this many bits that I wants, my preciouuuus! I wants it, I MUST have it, MY PRECIOUS!!!!!!!!!!  >:D

Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: sandymae on December 16, 2009, 09:57:06 PM
my preciouuuus! I wants it, I MUST have it, MY PRECIOUS!!!!!!!!!! 
 :24:
Now thats very good, Murano and Lord of the Rings fan  :24:
 :thup:
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: glasshunter on December 28, 2009, 05:18:28 AM
hi, i think things are starting to creep up slow but sure.
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: paradisetrader on January 08, 2010, 04:50:38 PM
In 2000 I met online a marvelous guy, known by many here as Terry from Iowa, who became a very dear friend.  His lament then to a Murano Glass group was that the bottom seemed to have dropped out of the Murano market. He was at that time a glass dealer of some 10+ years standing. Plus ca change

Fortunately glass was not his main source of income and eventually he explained to me that when the market was down he would buy buy buy ready for the upturn. It's a very sound business strategy equally effective in the investment industry, in which I used to work. Buffett, Soros and arbitrageurs of all sorts use it still.

I used to buy fairly frequently from the US and sell about a third of my offerings there. These days I sell more to Europe, Canada, Australia etc. I assumed that was because the US market was so depressed from the recession.

As for buying  ...zero, zilch, nada since USPS hiked those postage rates. I just cannot bring myself to pay them even if the deal as a whole stacks up. Probably just as well as I have way too much glass anyway. At least I do now understand why sellers insist on the much more expensive priority service.

We used to exchange small to medium sized glass items for fun using the old surface mail rate (which the UK still has). I  occasionally come across a box he used to send something to me with a stamp of between $5 to $12 only !!

Terry unexpectedly passed away in Sept 07. I still miss our long skype conversations about glass.
As for Murano or indeed any type of glass, quality will always sell ....eventually....and indeed will probably lead the way in rises when the recovery comes. We have yet to see any green shoots here in UK.
good luck to all
Peter
 
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: TxSilver on January 08, 2010, 07:39:40 PM
It does seem that the Murano market is picking up on eBay and in the stores. The bids have been up on eBay in the last few days and at least one of the stores (mine) have sold a few things. It may be people spending Christmas money or it could be that people are feeling more confident about the economy in the USA.

Now I've probably jinxed it and nothing will sell again unless Punxatawny Phil doesn't see his shadow. (For people outside the US, Phil is Pennsylvania's ultimate weather prognosticating groundhog.)
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: glasshunter on January 11, 2010, 04:04:58 AM
hi i listed a great bottle vase last week after i saw one go for $125.00 with better pictures better description and lower shipping and ended up at $75.00 us i don't know what happened.  any help? on that one
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: glasshunter on January 11, 2010, 04:06:22 AM
i wish i could judge it better
Title: Re: Is the Murano market looking up?
Post by: Lustrousstone on January 11, 2010, 12:37:38 PM
Depends how many people wanted it. The top two payers fought it out on the first one, i.e., not yours