Glass Message Board

Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => Scandinavian Glass => Topic started by: David555 on December 30, 2005, 02:13:04 AM

Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: David555 on December 30, 2005, 02:13:04 AM
Hi all

Hope you had a good Xmas

My copy of Designlasin hintakirja 2005 came before the site went down. It is good & has info about how to read the pages and price guides in English at the back, but I have a few questions

It says it is deals with two companies Karhula-Nuutajarvi-Iittala & Riihimaen Lasi Inc. (pp385) when dealing with designers, it does not seem to state what period of the Karhula-Nuutajarvi-Iittala history they designed for – as they were all different companies at one time and the designers worked for some and not others, this is a slight problem for me. I mean I have a rough idea through other books, but ……..

The Aalto section is treated differently, so the instructions on Aalto are flawless.

I take that with Still & Tynell, it is only Riihimaen we are talking about. Yet so many designs seem to be missing. Also it states that the main four designers were Still, Tynell, Okkolin, and Aladin. So why does it not give any info on Okkolin, and Aladin.

I bought ‘Finnish glass – Brochures from the 1950s’ and it has sections Karhula- Iittala and its designers, then Nuutajarvi Notsjo, then Riihimaki. It is good to have as a reference back up with Designlasin. I have ordered Brochures from 60s and 70s which should also be a great help along with the Miller’s A-Z

I know that Karhula merged with Iittala in 1915. I am always baffled when I see the Karhula name alone in the 1950s. At least I know it’s all one company and at least I know from Ivo’s book that Nuutajarvi Notsjo merged with Karhula-Iittala in 1985. So in the Designlasin, Saara Hopea is Nuutajarvi only as in Ivo’s book it states she only worked up until 1960 for that firm.

I suppose using the Miller A-Z and some other books I can scribble what factories in the Designlasin.

Now Kaj Franck is a bit difficult as he worked for Riihimaki mid 30s, Iittala 1946 to 60, Nuutajarvi 1950 to 73. I mean with no factory names against his pieces in the Designlasin it's a bit of a nightmare. Someone tell me I am reading the thing wrong!

Anyway: This is 16” high and looks like a Gullaskruf vase designed by Arthur Percy (see thread on forum and J Miller 2006 pp331 larger sized one). Any confirmation

vase (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gull7am.jpg)

Riihimaen by Tamara Aladin – Designlasin em no LOL – it’s the colour a red brown like a deep red cinnamon any confirmation on colour appreciated

vase (http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=taladin6dz.jpg)



Thanks

Adam P
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Max on December 30, 2005, 10:19:48 AM
Quote
Riihimaen by Tamara Aladin – Designlasin em no LOL – it’s the colour a red brown like a deep red cinnamon any confirmation on colour appreciated

I bought ‘Finnish glass – Brochures from the 1950s’ and it has sections Karhula- Iittala and its designers, then Nuutajarvi Notsjo, then Riihimaki


David, Where are you getting the information that Tamara Aladin designed

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8536/taladin6dz.jpg

 :?:   Do you have it in one of the catalogues you bought?  I wouldn't mind the Riihimaki ones myself.  :D  Also, what designs do you think are missing from Designlasin?
Title: Re: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: tmaritta on December 30, 2005, 12:29:25 PM
Quote from: "David555"

I know that Karhula merged with Iittala in 1915. I am always baffled when I see the Karhula name alone in the 1950s. At least I know it’s all one company and at least I know from Ivo’s book that Nuutajarvi Notsjo merged with Karhula-Iittala in 1985.
Adam P


Based on information from one finnish collector's homepage, Iittala and Karhula were two separate companies even after 1915, but belonged to the same group.

"1793 perustettiin Nuutajärven lasitehdas ja 1881 perustettiin Iittalan lasitehdas"

Nuutajärvi Glass was founded in 1793 and Iittala in 1881.

"Iittalan lasitehdas ei ollut itsenäinen lasitehdas vaan toimi Karhulan lasitehtaan
alaisuudessa vuodesta 1915, jolloin A.Ahlstöm osakeyhtiöt ostivat Iittalan ja Karhulan lasitehtaat.
Vuodesta 1988 Iittala ja Nuutajärvi ovat kuuluneet samaan yritykseen."

Iittala Glass Factory was not an independent company but operated under Karhula Glass Factory from 1915 when A. Ahlström Co.  bought both Iittala and Karhula.   From 1988 Iittala and Nuutajärvi belong to the same group of companies.

If I remember correctly Karhula produced less sophisticated glass for everyday use, packaging, etc. and Iittala specialised in design glass.

It is, however, difficult to find conclusive information from the internet about the finnish glass factories.  I am sure the information is available but you probably have to buy books to find it!

TMaritta
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: David555 on December 30, 2005, 03:33:45 PM
Hi Max

It says on page 385 of Designlasin Artists who worked for Riihimaen Lasi Inc were Tamara Aladin, etc.

It also states in a well known book Helena Tynell (b.1918), Nanny Still (b.1926), and Tamara Aladin (b. 1932) were the three women who dominated design at the firm for 20 years

I think your cat side is coming out here, you mean you don't rate Aladin as a designer? LOL :wink:

So the Tuulikki series, Trumpet, Carmen, Taalari, Tornado, Välkky, Solmuke, etc. pieces by Aladin are not there.

Rocket vase not there by Okkolin (sniff)

By Still and Tynell, can't see the 'Fossil Range' by Tynell, or any of these smooth and undulating vases attributed to Still like 'Timalasi'

So I am thinking all my other sources are wrong - the following artists who worked for Riihimaen (at some time) must have been responsible for the missing vases (see list below marked A), I guess it was easy to Transpose 'Hyrra' or 'Ring-Ring' onto so many other similar designs.

I always get Nanny Still for the following vases, but they are not in Designlasin
Vases (http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2323/2vases0ou.jpg)
Vase (http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/6243/rihimaen6dv.jpg)

A Online Source ‘Soumalainen Lasi’ http://koti.mbnet.fi/jost/lasi.htm

Arttu Brummer
(1891-1951)

Greta-Lisa Jäderholm-Snellman
(1894-1973)

Walter Wahlroos

Henry Ericsson
(1898-1933)

1928-1936, 1942-1946
Sulo Grönberg
(1899-1971)

Eero Sallinen
(1919-1973)

1932-1947
Gunnel Nyman
(1909-1948)

Toivo Karjalainen
(1909-1981)

Runar Engblom
(1908 -1965)

(1937-)1955-1976
Aimo Okkolin
(1917-1982)

1946-1976
Helena Tynell
(1918 -)

1948
Timo Sarpaneva
(1926-)

1949-1976
Nanny Still
(1926 -)

1954-1955
Sakari Pykälä
(1926-1996)

1959-1976
Tamara Aladin
(1932-)

(1964-)1968-1976
Erkkitapio Siiroinen
(1944-1996)

1970-1976
Pertti Piipponen

1972-1976
Hillevi Lalla

Website (http://www.antiikkijataidekirjat.com/index.html?target=dept_6.html) is where I bought my books including the late 1950s brochures for Finnish glass ‘Suomalaista lasia’ see blue book near bottom


Here are some extracts

page 76 (http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/9379/picture25ui.jpg)

page 79 (http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7444/picture2rih0gq.jpg)

Thanks

Adam P
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Vecila on December 30, 2005, 03:34:51 PM
The Riihimaki Joint Stock Company was founded in Riihimaki, Finland, by M. A. Kolehmainen and H. G. Paloheimo in 1910 and renamed Riihimaen Lasi in 1937. Riihimaki manufactured household glass, container glass, crystal, window glass, and eyeglass lenses and was Finland’s largest glass factory in the 1920’s to the 1960’s. The company underwent modernization in 1927 to 1948 under the direction of Roope Kolihmainen. Riihimaki began a cooperative agreement with A. Ahlstrom in1961 and manual production of glass ended in 1976 when the company turned to mass production. Household glass was also produced in1977 by the newly founded Kotilasi unit. A. Ahlstrom bought Riihimaen Lasi in 1985 and in 1988 was merged with Karhula to form Ahlstrom Riihimaen Lasi Oy. Riihimaen Lasi closed in1990 and in 1995 Owens-Illinios, an American company, bought Karhula.
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: David555 on December 30, 2005, 03:42:09 PM
Thanks Tmaritta for info on Karhula-Nuutajarvi-Iittala and also Vecila on such detauiled information on Riihimaen

Adam P
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Ivo on December 30, 2005, 03:52:08 PM
Quote from: "David555"


So the Tuulikki series, Trumpet, Carmen, Taalari, Tornado, Välkky, Solmuke, etc. pieces by Aladin are not there.

Rocket vase not there by Okkolin (sniff)


designlasin hintakirja only includes works by the designers listed on the cover - these are Aalto Franck Hopea Nyman Sarpaneva Still Tynell and Wirkkala - not Aladin or Okkolin.
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Max on December 30, 2005, 04:08:39 PM
I'm getting really confused, so apologies if I've misinterpreted.

Of course I rate Tamara Aladin as a designer, I don't think I gave the impression that I didn't.   :?:

Tiimalasi is on page 234 of Designlasin.

Naturally anything by Okkolin or Aladin isn't in Designlasin, because it doesn't cover those designers.

Thanks for the website www.antiikkijataidekirjat.com I'll have a look around later when my headache clears.  :x

I can't think what Fossil by Tynell looks like, so I'll have to bow out of commenting on that one.
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Glen on December 30, 2005, 08:40:02 PM
My knowledge of the Karhula, Iittala and Riihimaki companies is primarily based around their Carnival Glass output - circa mainly late 1920s and 1930s. However, I can add a little to the timeline above, and comment on their separate entities.

Though Karhula and Iittala merged in 1915, they still continued to mark their glass separately, and to offer their own product lines via their own catalogues, as well as also producing some joint catalogues. Of course, they were not physically proximate - Iittala being just south of Tampere and Karhula well to the east of Helsinki.

In 1922 they issued a joint Karhula-Iittala catalogue of pressed glass in which the Karhula lines were suffixed with a K and the Iittala ones with an I. However, there are other catalogues (certainly through the 1930s) that are purely Iittala or purely Karhula.

One such, the 1933 Karhula catalogue, shows a superb range of cut crystal. Riihimaki and Karhula were the leading manufacturers of crystal glassware during the 1920s and early 1930s: in fact Karhula "led the field" for many years.

Around this period they also both made Carnival, though Karhula made more (and better) of it than Iittala. Examples with the moulded word Iittala or Karhula are known (and prized). Some of the world's most sought after Carnival was made by Karhula - for example, the Britt water set.

As a post script, I would also like to add one very important stage in the Riihimaki history that has been omitted in the contributions above. In around 1927, Kauklahti (Espoo) merged into Riihimaki. This was very significant in that many of their moulds were subsequently used by Riihimaki.

Glen
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: robbo on December 30, 2005, 09:23:34 PM
A little more on the later history of Karhula -

Their production of moulded and art glass was transferred to Iittala in 1954, after which the works produced just container glass - bottles, jars etc. Production of this had started in 1945. As said previously, it is now part of Owens-Illinois Inc.

They have a current product catalogue on their website, complete with line drawings, arranged by foodstuff type.  http://www.karhulanlasi.fi/
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: David555 on December 31, 2005, 12:03:32 AM
Thanks Glen for the information on the early periods. There are reproduced catalogues I can buy that cover that early time period on the website I mentioned, but it's good to know you are so knowledgeable I won't have to buy any LOL. The early period is of interest to me I never realised they produced items such as this for a while http://koti.mbnet.fi/jost/riihi02.htm


Thanks Robbo - I believe what you say is well documented, yet my catalogue of 1950s brochures shows boxed gift items with a K-I logo & ‘Karhula Iittala’ as late as 1956 -9. I believe they must have continued to use the Karhula name for giftware if not the factory itself. I think this has been covered in another thread?
Reference - recent book of brochures I bought
page 25 Suomalaista Lasia 1950s (http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8716/karhula3fx.jpg)

Thanks Ivo - Yep I gathered that LOL - can you recommend any books that cover these other designers, in fact all the Riihimaen designers I mention above. Also what about the stuff attributed to Still and Tynell (see my pics) is it true to say that because they are not in the Designlasin they are not by these designers, so many book and web resources seem to get it wrong as Max has pointed out on many an occasion?

Max the same questions go out to you (in the sense I really respect your opinion)

I am sorry I misinterpreted your statement
Quote
where are you getting the information that Tamara Aladin designed
; I thought you were having a joke, when you were actually talking about the picture shown in the URL below. I should have realised you are a lover of all Riihimaen - please accept my apologies, I got it was designed by Aladin from every Miller book I own, I think I should throw these away now.

Do you know who designed it and what do you think about the cinnamon colour?

You are right Tiimalasi is on page 234

I can see with such small pictures, I will need to learn to study next to good photos of the real thing if possible

I also realise that even up to date price guides and books are giving wrong attributions on Riihimaen, there must be a few designs out there still needing a designer attribution?

Thanks everyone for contributing to a vibrant thread, you really helped me - I am afraid I may still need to ask questions as the way the Designlasin does not give designer date ranges for Karhula-Nuutajarvi-Iittala is sure to confuse me when I am out buying - I have however worked out a lot using Ivo's A-Z. Its excellent dates give a good indication along side each designers work. I am even getting a better handle on Kaj Franck who hopped around from Riihimaki mid 30s to Iittala 1946 to 60, Nuutajarvi 1950 to 73



Adam P
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Pat on December 31, 2005, 01:20:00 PM
I to am seeing things that I think ought to be in DesignLasin. On ebay recently have been two Helene Tynell Emma vases with long necks like lamp bases. These are not in DesignLasin. See Here.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Amber-banjo-shape-pressed-glass-vase-whitefriars-style_W0QQitemZ7378753428QQcategoryZ64877QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Max on December 31, 2005, 01:53:47 PM
Quote from: "Pat"
I to am seeing things that I think ought to be in DesignLasin. On ebay recently have been two Helene Tynell Emma vases with long necks like lamp bases. These are not in DesignLasin. See Here.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Amber-banjo-shape-pressed-glass-vase-whitefriars-style_W0QQitemZ7378753428QQcategoryZ64877QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


I think that's a wannabee Pat, someone's copied the Emma vase.   :)
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: robbo on December 31, 2005, 05:51:24 PM
Quote from: "Max"
I think that's a wannabee Pat, someone's copied the Emma vase.   :)


I'd seen these, including one with a stopper, and wondered about them. Maybe they have the same origins as the 'Made in Italy' sun-bottles discussed recently?

Quote from: "David555"
...my catalogue of 1950s brochures shows boxed gift items with a K-I logo & ‘Karhula Iittala’ as late as 1956 -9. I believe they must have continued to use the Karhula name for giftware if not the factory itself.


It does seem as if it could be a 'branding' issue. As Glen said, the Karhula name was very well respected and well known internationally. They had won a number of design prizes in the 30s - Aalto's Savoy vase etc. Maybe they were reluctant to let the Karhula name lapse?
Also, Timo Sarpaneva designed the Iittala red 'i' logo in 1956; I think I remember reading (somewhere :?: ), this was originally meant to be used just on his 'i-glass' tableware range and only subsequently applied to the remainder of Iittala's production. This would maybe tie in with the continued use of the Karhula name in your late 50s catalogues?
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Max on December 31, 2005, 06:45:51 PM
Quote from: "robbo"
Quote from: "Max"
I think that's a wannabee Pat, someone's copied the Emma vase.   :)


I'd seen these, including one with a stopper, and wondered about them. Maybe they have the same origins as the 'Made in Italy' sun-bottles discussed recently?



I've just noticed someone's bid up to the reserve price of £50 on that vase.  :shock:   You could be right about the Italian 'sunflask' connection Robbo, anyone feel like bidding more than £50 and having a good look?  :wink:  :P
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: robbo on December 31, 2005, 07:11:19 PM
Quote from: "Max"
I've just noticed someone's bid up to the reserve price of £50 on that vase.  :shock:   You could be right about the Italian 'sunflask' connection Robbo, anyone feel like bidding more than £50 and having a good look?  :wink:  :P


The lip does look similar http://www.aurinkopullo.com/piraatit.htm. Maybe after I'd finished looking, I could grind off the top few inches and resell  :idea:  :roll:  :wink:
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Max on December 31, 2005, 07:30:14 PM
LOL!  Hey, that's an interesting site though - very interesting!   :D  :D

Er, I almost admitted this just now;  I'll do it now.  :oops:

I bought a 'sunflask' decanter about 2 years ago.  Thought it was the real thing (duh!) I think I bid £35ish on it.  It arrived and..oooh dear!  I can't remember if it had 'Made in Italy' on it, but it had a nasty plastic fitting around the stopper and I hated it!  Luckily the plastic was dead tatty, so I sent it back, saying it was damaged.  It got lost in the post...and I got a full refund from the post office.  Yippeee!   :lol:  :D
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Pat on December 31, 2005, 08:02:29 PM
The person on the £50 bid buys lots os Riimaen. Could be Italian BUT there was a green one on before Xmas with a hole drilled in to make a lamp. The seller of that usually is very honest and never said anything about Made In Italy.
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Max on December 31, 2005, 08:21:13 PM
Pat  :)

I don't take other people bidding on items as proof of identification.  Goodness knows I've been wrong enough times myself!   :wink: :D

IMHO the brown 'Emma' vase isn't by Tynell.  The green one with the hole drilled in it that you refer to could have been by Tynell.  :?:  Maybe it was altered to make it into a lampbase.  I can't find it in completed auctions.  I can only offer an opinion based on a few years experience and the Designlasin book being pretty much infallible so far. <shrugs>

The person selling the 'Emma' vase on ebay hasn't listed it as Tynell, so that's fair enough as far as I'm concerned.  I'm not calling them into disrepute in any way: caveat emptor.  :)
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: Pat on December 31, 2005, 08:40:48 PM
Sorry I did not mean that the guy bidding was proof, just that I'm not surprised he is bidding a lot because he buys a lot of Riihimaen-or what he thinks is. The green one is in completed and is definitley the same as the one on now with the neck. Not an Emma. But I can't remember how it was listed.
Title: Designlasin hintakirja Questions and a few vases
Post by: robbo on January 01, 2006, 01:14:59 PM
Quote from: "Max"
I bought a 'sunflask' decanter about 2 years ago.  Thought it was the real thing (duh!) I think I bid £35ish on it.  It arrived and..oooh dear!  I can't remember if it had 'Made in Italy' on it, but it had a nasty plastic fitting around the stopper and I hated it!  Luckily the plastic was dead tatty, so I sent it back, saying it was damaged.  It got lost in the post...and I got a full refund from the post office.  Yippeee!   :lol:  :D


It's all part of the learning curve isn't it? My most recent faux pas was buying what I thought was a bowl, but turns out to be a goblet, with the whole of the stem and foot removed!!  :roll:  :oops:  :oops: