Glass Message Board

Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: rosieposie on August 22, 2012, 08:42:20 PM

Title: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: rosieposie on August 22, 2012, 08:42:20 PM
I collect glass birds and am looking to start buying pieces that will be good investments.

I have heard that Vistossi birds an fetch a good price.

This one has a very low start price, but looks so like a Pukeberg  glass bird that has been 'doctored'. Am I being  too sceptical?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mid-Century-Modern-Vistosi-Alessandro-Pianon-1960s-Glass-Bird-Sculpture-murano-/290764341093

This one is also listed, but already has some bids.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/unusual-vintage-Alessandro-Pianon-Vistosi-Pulcino-murano-Glass-Bird-Sculpture-/251133963470

And a third:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-Alessandr-o-Pianon-Italian-Vistosi-Pulcino-1960s-Glass-Bird-Sculpture-/310423287095?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4846ab7537

Which somehow looks rather expensive??

Any advice welcome.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: Greg. on August 22, 2012, 09:05:18 PM
Hi Rosie, I know its not normal protocol to comment on live auctions, however, in my opinion you are wise to be sceptical in this instance. Both of these ebay accounts (first two links above) are actually the same person, just to mention they also have another two ebay accounts active at present.

I have reported this member on more than one occasion to ebay, although nothing seems to happen. They also seem to have a keen interest in using a dremel particularly for Nuutajarvi Notsjo Kaj Franck items, here's another one of their current offerings....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251130511248?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_1992wt_1186

Just to be clear, the seller in your third link is unrelated to the other two.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: glassobsessed on August 22, 2012, 09:08:19 PM
The third one is spot on, the real thing, not sure it is that overpriced.

The first one looks like it is a Pukeberg napkin holder with bodged legs, glued not even soldered.... I imagine the eye is glue on.

The second one is not Vistossi and surprise surprise the way that the legs attach to the body is not shown. Looks nice enough but I know not who made it. Bit on the small side I think. Plus more glue.

Any seller that uses photographs that are out of focus should nearly always be avoided, they are either attempting to deceive or incompetent - if they can not manage a camera what else do they have trouble with?

John
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: glassobsessed on August 22, 2012, 09:20:10 PM
Two nice Caithness vases they have there, pity they were scarred with a dremel. I have noticed a lot of dremel work in that part of the country too...
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: TxSilver on August 23, 2012, 02:43:28 AM
Agree with John about the third one. The other two remind me of the two "Vistosi" pieces we saw a couple of weeks ago. Thank you for the good chuckle. Especially like the feet on the second one.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: TxSilver on August 23, 2012, 02:44:58 AM
Just noticed the first one has the same feet, but with white goo instead of black.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: kane_u_pain on August 23, 2012, 03:23:14 AM
The third is perfect and the pricing is about what they should be. One sold from Australia about 2 years ago for around $3,000.00 (or more). They are definitely a good investment if you can get the real deal.

The first 2 though, what a laugh!
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: Nemmie on August 23, 2012, 05:28:28 AM
Two nice Caithness vases they have there, pity they were scarred with a dremel. I have noticed a lot of dremel work in that part of the country too...

Nice apart from one of the rims which is almost serrated.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: kisslikeether on August 24, 2012, 06:56:34 AM
Both of these ebay accounts (first two links above) are actually the same person, just to mention they also have another two ebay accounts active at present.

I have reported this member on more than one occasion to ebay, although nothing seems to happen. They also seem to have a keen interest in using a dremel particularly for Nuutajarvi Notsjo Kaj Franck items, here's another one of their current offerings....

I've reported this member too. If you do a litle research on their feedback you can see the "blank" items they have bought on one account that as Greg says then have the dremel treatment & then appear with lalique, Nuutajarvi, Tapio Wirkkala, Kosta or M'dina sigs for sale via a different account!
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: Greg. on August 24, 2012, 08:21:46 AM
Here's an example, first link the two unsigned Caithness vases purchased from one account and the second link same vases sold under their other account, this time with dremel added signature...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=310398459287&nma=true&rt=nc&si=Gc1Fs%252BtvbER3x6qYx9lrfYNW05s%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_500wt_969

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251130511248?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_1992wt_1186
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: kisslikeether on August 24, 2012, 09:43:05 AM
Here's another goody!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400310531360

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261074681036

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160851335184

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LALIQUE-crystal-glass-signed-paperweight-figurine-bust-womans-head-frosted-mare-/251130510199?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item3a788b7b77
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: oldglassman on August 24, 2012, 09:44:18 AM
Even though this era of glass does interest me , the blatant attempt at fraud infuriates me,linked accounts and items have all been reported,will anything happen???.

 Surely it is in the interest of the GMB as a whole to assist were possible our less informed members of blatantly fraudulent activity whether it be on fleabay or otherwise, only with the dissemination of this valuable information can members be reassured that the GMB is the place to come for accurate assistance with glass identification which I understood to be a primary function of the GMB.

cheers ,
             Peter.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: rosieposie on August 24, 2012, 09:49:09 AM
Hi Peter,
That is precisely why I started this thread,  but I do not want it to be locked!

Let's just add info FACTUALLY as we glean it, then we will be doing precisely what you have said.

Rosie.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: oldglassman on August 24, 2012, 10:20:47 AM
ooooo that was quick

  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290764341093?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_2657wt_1165
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: Greg. on August 24, 2012, 10:26:15 AM
I hope they also end the auction for the item selling as ''Lalique '' (mentioned in one of the above links) some poor person currently leads the bidding at 425.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: oldglassman on August 24, 2012, 11:27:19 AM
 Reported to fleabay with links to original sale, seller also provided with the same links ,what will happen ? who knows ,

 a little tale for those interested , a replica Austrian enameled beaker was offered as such by a prominent UK auction house.it was unsold 3 times , on re offering in the provinces with the same description it was purchased by a fleabay seller and offered up  as the genuine article ,the seller was informed by several people that the listing was inaccurate, fleabay was informed , the sellers local trading standards office was also informed , both having been provided with the 3 previous public auction listings  stating it to be a replica, what happened , nothing !!!, the item sold for a lot of money. so i waited for feedback from the buyer and informed them of the sellers fraudulent listing , next thing i heard was from the seller who threatened me with a suit for' Liable '( hee hee spelling was also lacking with this seller),well that was the red rag to the bull,his threat was soon followed by an email from fleabay telling me that i was a naughty boy and that if I continued to interfere with sellers listings my account would be suspended , an even bigger rag to the bull , fortunately I have a very good friend who is a QC, he kindly provided me with an email letter to forward to both the seller and to fleabay stating that a suit for Libel can only be successful if the information being communicated by written or electronic means is factually incorrect and having looked at the available evidence this was obviously not the case , the seller was invited to proceed with his' liable' case against me and fleabay was informed that if any action was taken to suspend my account then they would be called into court as being complicit in allowing fraudulent activity. No further comment was received from either the seller or fleabay but a few weeks later a short note from the buyer was received , saying 'Thanks'.

Job Done.

cheers ,
             Peter.
ps i should also add that in the past fleabay themselves have contacted me to give a 3rd party opinion on items sold as antique that the buyers believed to be not , my opinion has on those occasions always been accepted,but do they act when I give my opinion before a buyer complains , no !!!!  ???

pps   ended  http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=251133963470&nma=true&rt=nc&si=vzaKWMjKfcaE%252F8ojYjL1l0nnGQg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_3222wt_1265
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: rosieposie on August 24, 2012, 12:30:42 PM
Does this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/unusual-vintage-Alessandro-Pianon-Vistosi-Pulcino-murano-Glass-Bird-Sculpture-/251133963470

look remarkably like this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=251123547127

Or am I being sceptical, because it has been removed??
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: oldglassman on August 24, 2012, 12:42:18 PM
yes Rosie , same buyer and same seller , 2 linked accounts , I informed both accounts of what has been noted , so far the birdies have come down , waiting now for the 'Lalique!!!', if I/we can see very clearly what is going on then why cant , lol or wont fleabay see the same thing , the more 'report an item ' messages that are sent should wake them up .

cheers ,
  Peter
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: rosieposie on August 24, 2012, 02:20:36 PM
I think this is where the Pukeberg napkin ring came from


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=261079406855

....and this same seller has another one for sale...I wonder who will buy it?
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: oldglassman on August 24, 2012, 02:26:39 PM
correct again , the same 2 culprits , ,this 1 has been dealt with  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290764341093?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_2657wt_1165.

I would be surprised if the same trick was tried with the second napkin holder but you never know,obviously the temptation was too much for the seller to take the 'Lalique' down so it's wait for the feedback now .

cheers,
              Peter.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: rosieposie on August 24, 2012, 03:32:29 PM
Feedback might be private Peter.

I would love to know what the seller of the Viking Labelled Madonna thinks of this should she ever find out. ;)
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: oldglassman on August 24, 2012, 03:35:06 PM
  ;D
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: rosieposie on August 24, 2012, 03:36:23 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: TxSilver on August 24, 2012, 03:41:58 PM
We ought to set up a public FB page that has provable trickery like we have shown here. There is nothing illegal with "interfering with business" if the business can be shown to be operating in bad faith. In the US, if the business were to sue, it would be up to them to show the statements made about them were false. Since they would be true, the business wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I think of how much money the Tiffany Fakes site may have saved people over the years. And they even have the guts to name names. I haven't checked them in a while, so guess they are still up and running.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: Nemmie on August 24, 2012, 05:09:41 PM
I have set up a group along those lines as I think it is a great idea.

Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: kisslikeether on August 24, 2012, 05:18:20 PM
The response I had from Ebay when I reported items to them was 'We can only act if you are the copyright holder of the items you are suggesting as fakes'.

Perhaps if we use one of theses emails <ukfraud@ebay.com>; <safeharbor@ebay.com>; <uksupport@ebay.com> & bombard them with info on what is going on then maybe something will get done
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: TxSilver on August 24, 2012, 05:31:33 PM
I have set up a group along those lines as I think it is a great idea.

Would love to join. Do you have a link?
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: rosieposie on August 24, 2012, 05:48:40 PM
I have set up a group along those lines as I think it is a great idea.



Gosh you got a lot of members very quickly Nemmi... well done!
It is under the group section on the home page Anita, see you there!

http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/473442369356573/
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: oldglassman on August 25, 2012, 10:01:36 AM
Nemmie ,  do you still have a photo of this item which you sold , note who the buyer was ,
   carlpic4 ( 2096)     16-Dec-11 17:42
    Lovely Reijmyre Frosted Art Glass Bird Scandinavian with Label (#220905351490)   10.99,

and is it possible it may have been transformed into this item ?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=261018905074&nma=true&rt=nc&si=vzaKWMjKfcaE%252F8ojYjL1l0nnGQg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_837wt_1265
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: oldglassman on August 25, 2012, 11:23:30 AM
 :-X  deleted as info has previously been supplied
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: rosieposie on August 25, 2012, 11:54:32 AM
is it possible that this item purchased by the same buyer

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=251123547127&nma=true&rt=nc&si=vzaKWMjKfcaE%252F8ojYjL1l0nnGQg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_500wt_1282

has been transformed into this 1

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item3a78c02cce&item=251133963470&nma=true&pt=UK_Art_Glass&rt=nc&si=vzaKWMjKfcaE%252F8ojYjL1l0nnGQg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_3222wt_1265

Yes Peter, I think we highlighted that one earlier in the thread.  If you look at the 'transformed' version listing, you will see that the seller says he purchased it at a bootfair:
Q:  Will you absolutely guarantee that this bird is a 100% vintage Pianon Pulcino, with a full money back refund if it is found not to be? 23-Aug-12
A:   I refer you to my listing that says I am not an expert on everything I sell. This was bought at a car boot sale and I did basic Internet research into the item. Please do not bid if you intend only to return it. There are no returns on this item and what you see is what you will be sent! Hope this helps.

 but of course it is obvious that they are the same bird and he bought that on eBay!!  More proof if it were needed.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: adam20 on August 25, 2012, 02:59:27 PM
Hi

I bought this item from a dealer in Glasgow and posted it on the board a few months back. http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,48568.msg273781.html#msg273781 It has turned up once or twice that I know of on eBay. It's not Vistosi and the seller re this thread was wrong to sell it as such, but I do feel it's genuine in itself, whoever made it.

Adam
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: Greg. on August 25, 2012, 03:18:53 PM
I see one of the pieces at the top of this thread has been relisted, with an amended description. Although doesn't take into account how it started life when purchased by the seller as shown in the second link, selective memory perhaps...?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/unusual-Cute-Rare-Glass-Bird-Sculpture-Metal-Legs-/251138918465?_trksid=p4340.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D1577773325096689379%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D1%26#ht_1508wt_1186

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=251123547127#ht_500wt_1182
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: NMott on August 25, 2012, 04:46:41 PM
Quote
   thank you   guy13013pi6 ( 442)     12-Jul-12 18:13
    rare alessandro pianon vistosi pulcini pulchino bird murano glass italy 1960's (#261018905074)   565.55   View Item

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=261018905074&nma=true&rt=nc&si=eV3qaOIeukVRL%252BRDOIqNLL%252BIXig%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_805wt_1300

- Anyone want to tell him he's been sold a pup?
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: rosieposie on August 25, 2012, 06:21:15 PM
Listings are private and the Southampton address has now just become UK!  Had anyone noticed that?
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: oldglassman on August 25, 2012, 06:29:37 PM
yep, the useful information is still there though in 'Business seller information'.

cheers
               Peter.
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: rosieposie on August 25, 2012, 06:32:49 PM
Yes, you are right Peter....thanks!

Just out of interest;

This 'Lalique' bird has been sold at leat 6 times in just a few weeks...


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/art-glass-LALIQUE-robin-BIRD-PAPERWEIGHT-SIGNED-/261081345674

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/art-glass-LALIQUE-robin-BIRD-PAPERWEIGHT-SIGNED-/261077498234

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/art-glass-LALIQUE-robin-BIRD-PAPERWEIGHT-SIGNED-/261073378119

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/art-glass-LALIQUE-robin-BIRD-PAPERWEIGHT-SIGNED-/261069858879

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/art-glass-LALIQUE-robin-BIRD-PAPERWEIGHT-SIGNED-/261061115882

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/art-glass-LALIQUE-robin-BIRD-PAPERWEIGHT-SIGNED-/261052753169

How mant identical Lalique birds would one seller normally have for sale... does any one know?
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: art-of-glass on August 25, 2012, 07:29:29 PM
The response I had from Ebay when I reported items to them was 'We can only act if you are the copyright holder of the items you are suggesting as fakes'.

Perhaps if we use one of theses emails <ukfraud@ebay.com>; <safeharbor@ebay.com>; <uksupport@ebay.com> & bombard them with info on what is going on then maybe something will get done


Ebay are hopeless. I used report people using my images & descriptions and they used to remove them but they don't seem to bother any more, even if I bombard them.

Anywho, you're probably better off reporting it to the police with all this evidence of fraud.

Dan
Title: Re: Glass bird, is it what it says it is? Help needed please.
Post by: chriscooper on August 25, 2012, 07:36:14 PM
Bought a real one too?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261049639559