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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: flying free on December 02, 2012, 11:42:16 PM

Title: is this a Monart colourway please? - ID = Monart
Post by: flying free on December 02, 2012, 11:42:16 PM
http://s77.beta.photobucket.com/user/auctionlist/media/4November/4NOV008.jpg.html

link to someone else's pic...it seems to have little bits of mica scattered around all over the vase but I couldn't see this colour on Frank's site.  The vase shape is right btw. (well, I think it is  :-\  )
thanks
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Gary on December 03, 2012, 09:13:41 AM
The link provided only shows the bottom half of the vase and is not possible to identify the colourway or shape code.
Gary
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 03, 2012, 09:27:58 AM
the shape code seems to be MF  and the whole vase is like that - no added whorls or colours at the top or anything.  It's a mottled ambery bubbly decor with tiny mica flakes all over I think.
That's the problem I'm having trying to id the colour  as on the Monart colours page I can only see a section picture with a section of decor/colour rather than the whole piece. I suppose my question is, did Monart do a colour like this where the whole piece was this decor?  I'm fairly confident the shape is MF but I had pondered possibly Stevens and Williams.
I'm pretty certain it has mica flakes all over it, but in the description the owner has not mentioned this at all unfortunately.
thanks for looking 
m :)
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 03, 2012, 11:56:07 AM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fantastic-MONART-GLASS-VASE-/221151464409?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item337da78bd9&nma=true&si=bmriHBw%2BeuARVIZGkolDYm67w%2Bo%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Gary this is the link to the vase.
Seller relisted it as Stourbridge - therefore possibly not Monart.  It reminds me of some Stevens and Williams vases which is why I'm asking but not the mica flakes which it looks like there are.
thanks for any thoughts though.
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 03, 2012, 12:33:38 PM
It doesn't say anything to me, flying-free. I don't think I would have considered Monart.
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 03, 2012, 12:54:14 PM
no, I did wonder S&W (or Czech with the mica flakes in)  However the shape is very similar to a Monart vase I have and that's what they listed it as originally, so I just thought I'd ask...  I think they must have been told not Monart as it was relisted after being sold.

Thanks Sue
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: nigel benson on December 03, 2012, 02:03:14 PM
Well, we've photos of S&W of this shape in the archives, so I'd likely go with that, although I can't say that I've seen the colourway before.  Seen in May Green ; 'Mesh'; and in blue and green 'Rainbow' pattern amongst others.

Photos are very poor in order to see the colour and internal decoration properly IMHO.

Nigel
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Gary on December 03, 2012, 04:25:22 PM
Hi flying free, I seen the vase on ebay when it was listed as a Monart piece, I had my doubts at the time because of the colourway, though as you say the shape is very similar to the Monart shape MF.
Gary
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 03, 2012, 05:20:15 PM
Thank you Nigel and Gary.
Nigel, I'd thought it looked similar but didn't recognise the colourway and also the base looked narrower than I thought it should be. But then this (see link) was the one I was looking at and the size didn't seem right -
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-15317

Am I  looking at the wrong shape?
And then couldn't find it as a Monart colour either.  It looks quite S&W at the rim with the thickness of the glass.  When I asked the seller he just said he was told it was a Stourbridge vase.
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 05, 2012, 02:28:00 PM
Well I did buy it. It arrived today.  And I am 99.99% sure it's Monart. If it's not, I'll eat my lunch  ;D.
What I thought was mica is in fact masses of gold aventurine/copper aventurine - completely smothered in aventurine and random bubbles which is why it's so incredibly difficult to photograph - it looks amazing under artifical lighting.
Not cased, has an internal layer then a layer of bubbles I think, then a layer of aventurine in amber.  The base is a little strange, polished flat but the pontil mark is fine ground twice making a figure of eight.  And it's a bit thicker than my other Monart in the same shape.
Still, I'm sure in my bones it's Monart.  What do you all think and what colour way would it be?
I'll add a few more pics below of the close ups.
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 05, 2012, 02:32:54 PM
more pics
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 05, 2012, 02:40:15 PM
Looking much more Monarty now!
I've got my coffee and e-fag, just waiting for those who know to comment now...
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: nigel benson on December 05, 2012, 03:48:42 PM
Well, I for one think you're right. Certainly you're comparison of the two pieces together is quite compelling  :)

Very unusual base, but not impossible......well 'you've' got it ;) :)


Better disregard my comments in my previous post methinks ??? :-[



Nigel

Edit - PS. Much better photos than on the earlier links, N.
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 05, 2012, 04:09:23 PM
ooh thank you both  :-*
yes Nigel, I couldn't work it out either and didn't ask for a base pic because I just thought it looked a bit special - always a gamble lol as I've had plenty turn up , bought on that basis, that turned out not to be special at all.  It's a difficult one to photograph and his pics did not show it off at it's best,  which is why I thought the little darker splashes were flakes of mica on the close up.  But he described it as pinky and I know aventurine shows up badly in photographs and often gives off a pinkish look, so I took a gamble.  Very glad I did. 

Is it a rare colourway then perhaps? (she says all excited just in case) I've been through Frank's site with a fine toothcomb and cannot find anything similar.  I can find (and I have one piece with) the aventurine and bubbles in various pieces, but only in combination with colour and decoration of some sort.
I'm so happy about this piece  ;D - I love the shape and pleased to have something a bit 'different'.
I don't have anything in this colour for my 20s/30s collection, so it's just perfect in every way  :)
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 05, 2012, 04:53:05 PM
 ;) She's good, isn't she? Nigel!
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Gary on December 05, 2012, 07:52:19 PM
Hi flying free does the bowl in the link below resemble the colourway of your vase (minus gold aventurine).
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VASART-MONART-AMBER-GLASS-BOWL-c-1940s-NICE-PIECE-

Monart did do a finish on the base similar to your vase (see photo below), though so far I have not seen one ground twice like your one.
Gary
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 05, 2012, 09:42:24 PM
Hi Gary
Unfortunately the link you gave has been removed,so I can't see that bowl.

Thanks for checking the base for me.  The Monart  posy vase I have has exactly the same base as this vase, polished completely flat  with a finely ground out pontil mark, the pontil mark also badly shaped and also having evidence of the grinding tools to one side, but it's not in the double pontil mark shape, just wonky.
I'll add some pics.

Edited to add... is this the bowl you mean?  if so, no I would say not except for the fact they are both amber and both have bubbles.  I bet that is a lot thicker glass and a lot heavier for size, because it does look very similar to another bowl I have with green squiggly lines in.  I'll dig that out if I can remember where I've put it, and do a comparison.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VASART-MONART-AMBER-GLASS-BOWL-c-1940s-NICE-PIECE-/230892669783?pt=UK_Art_Glass&hash=item35c2468b57
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 05, 2012, 10:55:48 PM
I've found my other bowl.
Firstly my new vase has a smattering of bubbles spread out, some a little bigger than others, very watery looking bubbles, very like my blue bubbly Monart in type, and then has lots of absolutely minute pin prick size bubbles spread all over.  But they don't look like the bowl you linked to.
The bowl you linked to is however a similar shape as another bowl I have, but my bowl is smaller and in a different decor.It's difficult to tell but  I  think the base finish on mine is different to the one you linked to but I still think they are the same maker probably.

m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 05, 2012, 11:06:52 PM
see reply above and here is a pic of the bubbles in the vase
Also the aventurine in the vase makes the amber look darker than it really is, because there is so much of it and it's in rolled in an amber glass.  I think the bowl you've linked to is a darker colour more like my bowl.
The decor is exactly the same as this link, with the bubbles and the aventurine, except mine is only in amber glass, and has no colours in it http://www.museum.bristolblueglass.com/ysart-pin-tray-ca-1930s/
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 06, 2012, 10:45:17 PM
Gary do you have other ideas on the vase?
Anyone have any thoughts on what decor/colourway it would be please?
thanks :)
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Frank on December 06, 2012, 11:05:45 PM
I do not think it is despite the similarities. can you mail me bigger pics
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 06, 2012, 11:38:31 PM
Sending now.  Thanks for looking.
Am also attaching here a picture of  a Monart posy vase I have that has a polished completely flat base with an finely ground unpolished oddly shaped pontil mark on it, for comparison.
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 07, 2012, 09:04:18 AM
Hi Frank,did the photos go through ok?
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Gary on December 07, 2012, 10:52:23 AM
Hi flying free below is a link to my collection of Monart pieces with polished out pontils. Monart used this type of finish on all types of ware (ie applied feet, shaped feet and regular vase and bowls).
I have no great problem with the type of pontil finish or shape of your vase it is the colour scheme that I have my doubts.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=984
Gary
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 07, 2012, 10:56:44 AM
Whew! I was pretty sure the pontil mark was fine and that I've seen the double roundel on Monart before.
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: nigel benson on December 07, 2012, 02:09:53 PM
Hmm, but have you ever seen a double pontil surrounded by a completely flat polished area??

Only an observation  ;)

Nigel
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Gary on December 07, 2012, 02:14:28 PM
Below is a photo of Monart grinding shop where all Monart bases were finished off and an example of ZH ashtray with pontil ground out.
I would imagine there would be an array of sizes of grinding stones used depending on the size of base.
Gary
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 07, 2012, 05:07:16 PM
Do glassmakers use double pontils, Nigel?   ;)

I know I've seen the double-rounded pontil mark, but I don't have current access to D&D's collection in London to check how the base was finished around the marks.
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Frank on December 07, 2012, 07:13:41 PM
They tended to be a bit scruffier on applied foot pieces but not on footless vases. Colour is not a great problem as looking at big images the method is very Ysart... so what happened with the grinding? We can only speculate...

I doubt they changed grinding wheel frequently, if at all, it is one of the best fingerprints of Monart in that is was nearly always done with a wheel of the size shown. Contrast with smaller wheels used in virtually all the Monart-a-likes by other makers.

Bases would be ground to remove high spots prior to grinding then polishing the base flat probably on a different machine to that shown,the second grind could have been done later. There do appear to be blemishes in that area....

Some thoughts:

It was a second for some reason that may still show and used for training.

A fault was noticed while grinding and grinding stopped.
Got halfway through grinding when Paul announced he was off to Caithness Glass.

The piece would then have joined the others in the store room see Ian Turner's remarks in paragraph 5 here http://ysartglass.com/Ysart/YsartPuzzle1.htm according to which it is not Monart, just a working sample  :-X

What happened to all of the pieces still in that store after Paul had moved on? No-one seems to know but as we know several have surfaced in collections they left it at some point and were circulated among collectors.

So my opinion:  made by Paul or apprentice, not finished, placed in storeroom at Moncrieff. Sold to a dealer later.
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 07, 2012, 07:53:32 PM
Digesting your comments Frank and thank you :)

Why do you say not finished?  is it the double pontil mark?  would that signify not finished?  It is just a double pontil mark but ground in the same way as my posy vase.  Were Monart ultra-stringent about base finishes? would a vase be abandoned because of a double ground pontil mark?

A second? for the same reason of the double pontil mark?  it has a fully polished base, did something go wrong in the grinding of the pontil mark, was the pontil mark too large so requiring double grinding? so it became a second? I can't see any other reason at all on it, for it to be a second. And if so, I would expect to have seen other vases in the decor surface over the years that were 'perfect' and so therefore let out the door.  And that doesn't seem to be the case.

So then, I propose I have a very rare and possibly unique vase made at Monart by Paul Ysart or an apprentice and possibly a piece that was an experimental piece or a trial for using aventurine in amber glass, maybe as a forerunner to this one
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/13983/lot/21/     ?

With regards Ian Turner's comments on those vases not being Monart, is that opinion based on the parameters that if they weren't an official production line or recorded line of shape/decor, then they can't be classed as Monart?
I hate to question authority, but I don't see how a vase made at Monart cannot be classed as Monart  regardless of whether it went into production or not  :-\

Finally, thank you  so much for taking the time to look and respond.  I really value your and everyone's opinions.  I'm really happy with my vase and it's great to find out more about it and about Monart.
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Frank on December 07, 2012, 08:29:08 PM
I have in the past made the assumption that polished flat bases are a feature of Paul Ysart and yes he was fastidious... but I suggest there is some other reason this one was rejected.

Yes that was Ian's perspective and it has validity even if I do not personally accept it as it also excludes a number of specials and one-offs that are known about.

see also
http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=147:my-last-assumption-dating-monart&catid=24:john-moncrieff-limited&Itemid=13
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 07, 2012, 08:56:05 PM
Thanks :) so is the Bonhams vase I linked to 430b i.e a pre-war vase? 
And if so, looking at the information in your link above, would that indicate that if the base of mine being polished flat it is   post war glass, which then I assume would mean it could not be a pre-cursor or trial for the one in the link as I suggested?
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Gary on December 07, 2012, 09:06:33 PM
.
 I doubt they changed grinding wheel frequently, if at all, it is one of the best fingerprints of Monart in that is was nearly always done with a wheel of the size shown. Contrast with smaller wheels used in virtually all the Monart-a-likes by other makers.
I have 21 pieces of Monart with the pontil completely grounded out and the size of ground out portion varies from 3/4" (shape ZH ashtray) to 2 1/4" (shape IG), how is it possible to have such a wide variation of size of ground out portion if not with different size grinding wheels.
The grinding wheel shown in picture would be much to large for grinding Monart miniatures and small pieces bases.
The following photos are of corrospondence between Betty Reid(dispatch clerkess at Moncrieff's) and an American collector
Gary
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 07, 2012, 10:16:54 PM
Gary, my apologies, thank you also for taking the time to link to the pictures of the bases of your vases and for replying.  I very much appreciate it  :)
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Frank on December 07, 2012, 10:28:15 PM
No relationship to the earlier piece shown on Bonhams, which is my favourite style of decoration of Monart.

It is unfinished because it is not polished. Amber bowl on eBay is probably not Monart.

Wheel shown could cope with a lot of different sizes from quite small, what you see on the grinding is not the shape of the wheel but the path that the grinder followed. You can use it in quite the same way as a bench grinder for metals although to see a skilled grinder at work you would be forgiven for not recognising how delicately they actually handle the pieces.

I should not worry too much about finding the colour code for yours. The table on ysartglass.com was first created in the 1980s and expanded online from 1999 to around 2004. Gary has done a lot more detective work on colour codes too, but with 500+ and many a/b/c variations are countless and will probably never be known, plus of course after WW2 it was necessary to get some colours in UK until Kugler were producing again. Adam A could quite likely tell you if your is a Kugler colour or not... which information would also serve no dating purpose but just be interesting. Aventurine of course came from France and if from a wholesaler there, was probably Italian anyway.
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 07, 2012, 11:07:17 PM
Frank, sorry I feel as though I'm constantly asking questions, but when you say ' it is unfinished because it is not polished' are you referring specifically to the pontil mark on my vase?  because the rest of the base around it is polished and flat.  Any scratches on it are age wear but it really is highly polished.  Just the pontil mark is not. 
If so does that also mean my posy vase is 'unfinished' please?
many thanks again for your patience.
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Frank on December 08, 2012, 12:54:46 PM
Yes as while not every piece had its grinding polished, most translucent did and particularly vases and those post-war pieces by Paul in particular.
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 08, 2012, 07:10:34 PM
thanks but on that basis,  I no longer have a Monart collection... none of my 4 vases have a polished pontil mark, all are finely ground surrounded by highly polished bases  :-\
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 08, 2012, 11:11:34 PM
I'm wondering if my description of the bases of my vases has caused some confusion here - I've been looking up Monart vases on this site and all so far (4) have shiny polished flat bases/base rings and a matt ground pontil mark that is not polished shiny like the rest of the base (or so it looks in the photos). This is the same as all my pieces, although the one in question , the amber with aventurine, has a double ground pontil mark. 

I can't see what the difference is between my vase and these.  The only difference is that mine has a double pontil mark, which surely means they needed to grind twice because for some reason where the pontil rod was removed left a longer gash perhaps.  I can't see that means it was unfinished.
   I know photos can be deceptive but I also can't see any difference between my other vases and the ones I've found on here.  The bases all look the same, shiny polished flat with a matt pontil mark.
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Frank on December 09, 2012, 11:02:11 AM
I think you are being too particular and I have probably been over assertive and probably misleading in replying. With your amber piece I still feel it is unfinished but that is just my opinion not a statement of fact. The only thing is I cannot determine from your pictures why that would be, so I just go with my feelings.
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 09, 2012, 11:58:15 AM
 :) Frank, I think flying-free is slightly concerned that she no longer has a collection of "Monart", but of Ysart seconds from the Monart period.
I've never heard of a piece of Monart not being Monart when it's from the correct period, on the grounds of the base finish being different...

This is the (proper) base finish on my Monart miniature.
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Frank on December 09, 2012, 12:35:19 PM
But her questions were looking for a definitive answer and I went, perhaps unthinkingly, down that path which has ended up being misleading as there are no definitive paths at that level of detail in Ysart glass.
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 09, 2012, 12:54:48 PM
ok, so can I ask for your personal opinion on the matter, Frank? Do you consider that flying-free has Monart glass?
I do.  8)
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Frank on December 09, 2012, 03:35:00 PM
Yes
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: Gary on December 09, 2012, 03:49:47 PM
Hi flying free, the link below gives an indication of the wide variation of Monart base finishes, I have not included any images of applied footed pieces.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=985
Gary
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please?
Post by: flying free on December 09, 2012, 06:14:49 PM
Thank you all so much for imparting such a huge amount of information and going into such detail regarding my vase.  I truly appreciate your knowledge and opinions and have/am learning so much from the discussions.

Phew..  I'm glad to know my vases are Monart.  Sue, you were absolutely right, I was beginning to think I may have inadvertently accumulated some oddities, so thank you so much for pursuing it and understanding where I was coming from.

Gary, Frank, , thank you for trying to help me understand and for going to so much effort to explain to me - and I'm sorry I've caused confusion.  I have taken a while to respond because I have been searching for pontil marks (thank you Gary :) ) to try and see where I was not understanding what you meant.  And I think I've finally realised what you meant.  It is unusual to find a vase with a shiny polished flat base (not an  applied base or foot) but with a finely ground out pontil mark that is not a button pontil mark. I think I've got that right? 

Frank I've read loads more information on your site in the process, so thank you so much for sharing that information.  I love knowing 'where' my pieces come from and having some history is hugely informative.

Gary, thank you for putting pics on and going to so much effort to direct me.  I've looked at all your pics, to try and work out where I was misunderstanding and it has helped very much.   In the process, I did find this one which appears to also be a double ground pontil mark albeit on a piece that I think has an applied foot? 
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-18229

I believe my other three vases conform to the pontil marks shown by Gary in their various guises (two button, one ground in a shiny base on a posy with an applied foot), it just seems to be this one that is slightly different.

My vase is proudly on display as centrepiece, with the other pieces in my collection :)  I've learnt loads in the process of this thread, so thank you all.
m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please? - ID = Monart
Post by: Gary on December 10, 2012, 05:39:30 PM
Gary, thank you for putting pics on and going to so much effort to direct me.  I've looked at all your pics, to try and work out where I was misunderstanding and it has helped very much.   In the process, I did find this one which appears to also be a double ground pontil mark albeit on a piece that I think has an applied foot? 
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-18229
I have checked the vase (with applied foot) you mention and it does not have a double ground pontil, though I agree the photo I have posted appears to have something similar to your vase finish (ie double ground pontil).

I am always happy to help fellow Monart collectors, this thread has also aided me in respect to finding a new Monart colourway (at least to me).
Gary
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please? - ID = Monart
Post by: chopin-liszt on December 10, 2012, 06:07:27 PM
Even my brother and his OH agree, it's a very unusual colourway.  :)
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please? - ID = Monart
Post by: flying free on June 12, 2017, 09:51:55 PM
I just thought I'd add this image I found on the net.
It's the same vase, same shape and, I think, the same decor but... it's a different colourway and in the pale pink decor there is a darker pink as well as the aventurine splotches
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7e/c8/44/7ec844a8ce3b3afe501ebe80b7c9b3df.jpg

here is a link to mine

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=50536.0;attach=118497;image

I have not yet come across another piece in plain amber with the aventurine. 
It needs to be lit well to look fab.  Perhaps they decided it was too plain (gold coloured aventurine in a goldy coloured vase) hence not repeated.

m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please? - ID = Monart
Post by: Frank on June 13, 2017, 02:24:21 AM
seen a few of those.
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please? - ID = Monart
Post by: flying free on June 13, 2017, 09:04:28 AM
Do you mean the pink with aventurine Frank?  It's the first I've seen but I think I've seen it in that decor another shape.

I've never seen another any shape in plain amber with aventurine though.


m
Title: Re: is this a Monart colourway please? - ID = Monart
Post by: Frank on June 16, 2017, 12:15:25 AM
Yes, seen a few. Also plain amber is familiar.