Glass Message Board

Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => New Zealand & Australia Glass => Topic started by: Cathy B on June 01, 2006, 12:43:12 PM

Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on June 01, 2006, 12:43:12 PM
Glen, check out the base, lustre, thickness, knop, foot - this one feels so wrong... what do you think?

EDIT: On discussions with carnival glass collectors, this item is fine


http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7419340063


EDIT: The following example is definitely wrong.
And this from the same seller is so amateur it's laughable:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7419340071
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on June 01, 2006, 01:20:21 PM
My gosh, Cathy, we've got problems, haven't we? There's "word" out on the old grape 'n' cable vine that a bunch of Crown Crystal Carnival pieces are being repro'd in China. Is it true? Well, I can't confirm where they are being made, but I can say that I've seen photos of the little berry bowl in amethyst, and I listed a bunch of ways in which it is different from the original CC berry.

And now this clear iridised one! And it's different yet again. It surely isn't an original. At least it's in a colour that we know isn't genuine old.

But the comport is more of a puzzle and hence a problem. I don't have an original one in my collection to compare it with (we have several CC comports, but not that exact one). I can only compare it with the drawings in the Aussie Carnival book. But I agree with you that the iridescence looks strange. It is very lurid and brash. I think if we were to handle the piece we would know right away, but judging from a photo is very very difficult. I can't even confirm the dimensions given - can you?

The seller also has a master Kingfisher. I've sat and compared every little detail with my old one - and I'm still not certain.

But without a doubt, that little "clear pearl" one is not all it seems.

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on June 01, 2006, 02:05:42 PM
Glen,

The pearl is clearly a forgery in so many ways. The bird is wrong, the branch is much thicker, the tail is thinner, and most tellingly, it says RP4184 rather than RD4184. Hilarious.

I haven't got the hobnail and cane pattern - I only collect the coloured depression era and have only a little of the carnival. My gut instinct when I saw it was that it was wrong though. If there was anything I could put my finger on, it would be that it is too shiny and smooth - not just the irridised sections, but underneath on the base as well.

I do know that in the originals the irridisation could be flakey and that one very old collection on the South Coast includes a kingfisher nappy bowl in a gunmetal grey, which is where the irridisation didn't take. This is a treasured piece.

Here is a clear version, which I had thought was fine:

EDIT: On discussions with carnival glass collectors, this item is fine

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7415529974

But now I don't know.

Anyway, time to ring some real world collectors of the stuff to find out.
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on June 01, 2006, 02:31:23 PM
Cathy - yes, without a doubt the "pearl" piece is a fake. No problems with that one - and as I said, it's odd that it's actually different to the other fake Kingfisher berry that's around.

But that comport is much trickier. Both of my Aussie comports (Butterfly Bower/ Christmas Bells) are iridised on the exterior (one is silvery and the other is much more multicoloured). The iridescence on the upper side of both is packed full of colours. We've had them for almost 20 years so I am sure they are the real thing.

We need someone who has that exact comport to compare the two.

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on June 01, 2006, 02:53:26 PM
Cathy........

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7418848220
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7419543912
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7419562385

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on June 02, 2006, 12:00:15 AM
Which brings up the question of these:

EDIT: For anyone following this thread after the fact, we believe that all of these are original at this point.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7419543897
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7418848776

Most of these sellers' wares are reproductions, which casts doubt on the rest. Whether this is a reproduction is probably dead obvious to Lalique collectors.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7417872670
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on June 02, 2006, 07:35:04 AM
The second of those two items (the one described in the auction as a Northwood Deco centrepiece) is undoubtedly a genuine piece of Classic Carnival. It's a Fenton Persian Medallion bowl with a deep 3 in 1 edge, and is an absolute beauty.

The first one really does look genuine too (the Crown Crystal Shrike). I have compared my Shrike with every detail on that bowl and all seems to match.

The only piece I can say for sure is not a genuine example of old Crown Crystal Carnival is that "pearl" light (almost white) Kingfisher small berry. I also know of a small amethyst version (which is different to the "pearl" one) that is undoubtedly a fake.

The real worry is that we actually don't know what's going on at the moment. The collectors are aware that there are Aussie fakes around, but as we seem to be in the early days of these items being discovered, we don't know what pieces are actually being faked. So every piece has the potential to come under scrutiny.

Have you made those calls to Aussie Carnival collectors, Cathy? What are their thoughts on the current situation?

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on June 02, 2006, 03:49:39 PM
Cathy - I've written an article about them. Let me know if you think I need to add anything else.

http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/FakeKingfisher.html

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on June 19, 2006, 08:19:46 AM
Brilliant Glen, as always!

There are four variations on the kingfisher pattern, two stippled, the twigs are slightly different, sometimes they're surrounded by wattle. Do you have the Carnival Glass of Australia book? If not, I'll post you privately photos from the pages (and my one marigold kingfisher master bowl for comparison).

I know the buyers of bowl B incidentally so I'll have to ask them what they think.

Just a question on the base finish. In the fake (A) on David D's page, it looks almost like the whole base is ground and polished. Is that a trick of the light?

The others flagged seem to be fine, according to everyone I've asked. I'm still nervous because those sellers do have a very high reproduction quotient, and they seem to come up with these things with incredible regularity.

Cathy
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on June 19, 2006, 09:05:07 AM
Hi Cathy - thanks for your kind words. Thanks too, for the offer of a pic of your Kingfisher master, but actually we've got a variety of examples of  the Kingfishers (berry bowls and master bowls, with and without wattle blossom / stippling) in our collection. We also have a Kookaburra float bowl, which was (amazingly enough) found in the UK.

I do have the Carnival Glass of Australia book - thanks for the offer though, Cathy.

I'm guessing you don't have our "Carnival Glass The Magic & The Mystery" book. In the section on Australian Carnival we included a detailed study and drawings (mine) of the Kingfisher and its variants, as well as the Kookaburra plus an astonishing and rare example of the piece we called the "Kingfisher/Kookaburra Variant". It has what appears to be a kingfisher on it, plus two encircling twigs and in moulded lettering around the bird motif it says AUSTRALIAN KOOKABURRA.

When I did the feature for my website on the Aussie fakes, I toyed with describing the variations in detail, but decided against it, and just made a brief mention of the other version with the wattle sprigs added. I felt that if I started to show the master (and its variant) as well as the berry variant, it could confuse the issue. And as it's only the berry that we are currently certain is appearing as a fake, I just noted that "There is also another old version of this original Kingfisher design that has floral wattle sprigs added" which I hoped would do the trick.

I can't answer your question about the base of the fake that Dave shows. He doesn't have the bowl itself, only the photos. I did explain to him the differences that I could observe between the bases on the fake and the original, and he put my information re. the description on his website.

Thanks again, Cathy.

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on June 19, 2006, 01:21:32 PM
LOL Glen :) Quite right, I haven't got your book :)

I've generally steered clear of Aus carnival (and carnival in general, except for the melon ribs), on the grounds that it's too expensive and there are pleny of other collectors out there who know a lot more. Hopefully some of these people will be watching when any more fakes start turning up.

Anyway, thanks for doing that page. Did you do the line drawings yourself? They're very good.

Cathy
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on June 19, 2006, 01:36:39 PM
Hi Cathy - the Melon Ribs are fascinating, aren't they?

Yes, I did the drawings. I've drawn a lot of Carnival Glass patterns. The most difficult were the Millersburg geometrics. It took me days to do each one - and I had trouble focussing after I had spent time drawing, as I was doing such close work.  :roll: Even funnier were the dreams I had at that time. I had spent so much of my time staring at the geometric patterns that it must have affected my subconscious! And I had these weirdy OpArt dreams - as if Bridget Riley had invaded my head.  :lol:

Anyhow, the thanks are all from me to YOU, for having spotted the fake in the first place. I am indebted to (http://www.smileys.ws/smls/msn/00000035.gif) you (http://www.smileys.ws/smls/msn/00000035.gif).

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on June 19, 2006, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: "Glen"
The most difficult were the Millersburg geometrics. It took me days to do each one - and I had trouble focussing after I had spent time drawing, as I was doing such close work.  :roll: Even funnier were the dreams I had at that time. I had spent so much of my time staring at the geometric patterns that it must have affected my subconscious! And I had these weirdy OpArt dreams - as if Bridget Riley had invaded my head.  :lol:


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  Oh, I know what you mean though - I get a very small version of the same effect just looking at EAPG geometric patterns. Enough to drive you to drink...

Take care!
Cathy
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on July 07, 2006, 04:05:54 PM
Just a note to let anyone who is interested know that yet another Kingfisher berry (which is different again) has just shown up on Aussie eBay. I have updated / added details to my website article on these items.
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/FakeKingfisher.html

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on July 08, 2006, 12:47:21 AM
Thanks again Glen,

It's heartening that so far they seem to be relatively obvious. Have you got the auction number of the fake?

Cathy
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on July 08, 2006, 01:27:23 AM
Hi Glen,

This is more just for the record than for you particularly Glen. Thesegreen glass salts show up on Australian ebay with monotonous regularity. They are very obviously brand new, but tend to go for about $20+ I suspect because people mistake them for vintage wares.

EDIT: These items are definitely brand new. When ordered, they come compete with original packaging.

270003206314
260004994060
270003206321
260005102591
250003198059
270004779802
260003639058
260005104967
250004463884
260005105001
250004463908
290003386803
290003386845
290003707138
120004052965
270003206667
290003958431
290003958497
120005134287
120005133575
290004918768
290005255052
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on July 12, 2006, 07:08:14 AM
Hi all, and especially Glen,

What do you think of the following?

7406563139

EDIT: The above is fake. Email me if you would like a copy of the photographs. As they are for review or research only, this is allowable as fair use under Australian copyright laws.

It's hard to tell with the shocky blurry photograph, but Crown didn't usually do a pink lustre on clear base. ??? With your eye for detail (though it's hard to see) what do you think? Does the tail have that striped effect that appears on some of the known repros?
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on July 12, 2006, 07:28:10 AM
Hi Cathy - thanks for that auction link. I would say it is a fake. I'd base that on the following:

1. The colour/iridescence is not characteristic of Crown Crystal original Carnival. I know that CC did make some very rare pink based Carnival, but the pastel iridescence is not typical of CC.

2. The base appears to be wider than the CC original Kingfisher berry base.

3. There is that tell-tale seam around the edge (it can be seen around the wavy ruffles, just on the inside). This isn't on the originals.

The photos are taken in a way that means you just can't make out the pattern details, as you noted. The clear ones are taken at an angle, and the others are, as you say, shocky blurry!

Judging by the date of the auction, it would seem to be one of the earliest sightings of the Fakus Todimarphus Carnivalus Glassius (fake carnival glass kingfisher).

Thanks again, Cathy
Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on July 12, 2006, 07:46:50 AM
Hi Glen - It was actually the very first I spotted and I had it in my favourites list, but had forgotten about it until I was scrolling around today. I couldn't tell if it was a seam or camera shake. But yes, the originals have no seam, because of the strange moulds that they used.

(As an aside I once read a description of the moulding process Crown used, but it made no sense to me at all! Do you have any insight into it?).

So far, they all seem to be easy to pick. Do you think the sellers are mixing them in with the genuine to give themselves more credibility? Why do these sellers have so many of the genuine items?

Cathy
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on July 12, 2006, 08:01:12 AM
Hi Cathy - I know that the first Carnival pieces made by CC were made using one piece moulds (thus no mould seams). This also meant that the bases of those first pieces (the Kingfisher berries and master) had a ground base (because the item was "stuck up" rather then being held in the snaps). Most later Carnival from CC was made in the same way as the greater part of USA Carnival - i.e. using 3 or 4 part moulds, hence mould seams showing on the glass, and without a ground base.

None of the original items I have seen have had that strange line around the top edge. This is where the top ring would have fitted onto the mould. It seems that the fakes have a different sort of ring - and perhaps their (poor) method of manufacture is causing seepage between the parts of the mould, along that edge. Just me thinking aloud here....

I do know that several Kingfisher berry fakes recently appeared at an auction in Oz (a real auction, not an on-line one). I understand they were a mix of dark and marigold examples. All the dark ones were very heavy in weight, the marigold was lighter.

It has been speculated that they are being made in Australia - but there's no proof. What is very unusual about them (and not really in common with other fakes that we've seen in the past) is that the designs keep changing! In an incredibly short space of time.

The only good thing is that they do stick out like a sore thumb. And so far they only seem to have faked the Kingfisher small berry.

I can't answer your questions about the sellers on eBay - wish I knew the answer to that!

It's quite a mystery really. Hopefully we'll get to the bottom of it all sometime.

Thanks again, Cathy.

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on July 13, 2006, 11:35:14 AM
Thanks for all your work here, Glen.

I'm either going crosseyed, mad, or possibly both.

Can you have a look at 270007135094 ? All looks totally perfect, except that I think that pattern only appears on masters and not nappy bowls (ref Ken Arnold and the CGA book). Do you think he's got the wrong photo, or the wrong dimension?

Cathy
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on July 13, 2006, 11:56:24 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250006587005

Definitely going mad, here, Glen.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  Does this have a seam, or is it the photograph? And is it the fact that they've bumped up the contrast that has caused the irridescence to look like it came out of a spray can? I don't actually have a nappy, only a marigold master and it's buried away somewhere. On your nappy, does the bird have that outline?

Thanks for your help!

(In Australia, 'nappy' means 'diaper', but I've been reading it for so long I no longer do a double take).
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on July 13, 2006, 09:18:41 PM
Hi Cathy - quick message for now.

The first one you show (270007135094) is odd. The seller says it is a nappy (small berry bowl) and the size shown in the 5 inch: 13cm diameter small bowl. But the photo shows the pattern as it appears on the master (large) bowl. The RD is the wrong way round for the berry bowl, and the leaves are wrong for the berry....but correct for the master!

Something weird there. That's the seller who has had some very vivid and good-looking masters.

The second one (from the UK) 250006587005 - looks alright. I think what looks a bit like an edge seam in the lower part is a trick of the light. It doesn't appear to be around the top two thirds of the piece. We've compared it with our berry and it's absolutely identical.

All I can say is.......if that's a fake then it's a darned good one. That's kind of worrying in itself. The other ones on eBay that we've seen so far are clearly faked. This one is identical to the real thing.

Nightmares bekon me...............

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on July 13, 2006, 09:45:35 PM
Either that or I'm jumping at shadows, Glen, and I hope so. The first is the seller who's had some very nice looking masters - and has approx 1/2 of their wares are repros. ? ? Maybe he's just got the wrong picture, and/or dimensions.
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on July 13, 2006, 10:03:42 PM
I know Cathy...I know. I've gone through all the same thoughts as you have. I've looked at the stuff that seller has and I've wondered....... But I can't see how those master Kingfishers differ from the true originals! If they are fakes....we got a problem! The small berries have so far been easy to spot. But if those masters are fake, then............

The fact is, I cannot see (on a photo) how they are different from the originals. If I could hold them in my hands then I would know for sure.

Thanks, Cathy, for directing me to those pieces.

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on July 13, 2006, 10:38:12 PM
Hi Glen,

I've emailed one buyer of some of the items, and asked her to take the items to one of the collector's assns. She was panicking anyway, with the discussion on the other board.  

I'm just thinking aloud, the old moulds surely didn't survive the war? And even if someone did get hold of them, they'd never know what to do with them. And if they had them, why would someone bother with those crazy obvious fakes?

What are other Carnival fakes like? They're usually pretty obvious, aren't they? Someone couldn't make moulds using casts of the originals, could they? Lost wax process?
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on July 14, 2006, 11:38:33 AM
Cathy - this is such a wide ranging and almost impossible te answer topic, isn't it? I've been thinking along much the same lines as you.

The first notice we got of the Crown Crystal fakes was from a (so far) anonymous source stating that all the moulds were in China and were being faked. This is not proven, and could be groundless.

The first factual info was the photographic proof of Kingfisher nappy (small berry bowl) items appearing on Australian eBay (as in the recent one you showed us from April) and the photo someone sent to Dave.

Carnival collectors in Australia have confirmed that the small Kingfisher berry bowls have been seen at auctions. They are very clearly faked and there are several versions. They wouldn't fool anyone who has seen the originals.

The big problem is...are any other CC pieces being faked? And the answer is, I don't know. If they are, then they are VERY GOOD fakes.

Did the original moulds survive? Possible. But I sort of doubt it.

What are other Carnival fakes like? Well, the main ones to consider are the Far Eastern fakes of the Northwood Peacocks, Good Luck and Grape and Cable. They certainly don't use the original moulds. They have simply copied from the glass items. They are easy to spot if you are experienced. Not so easy if you are a newbie. On some there is a large N mark - and it's a dead give-away!

There have been several generations of the N fakes, over maybe a decade or two! You can see some here.
http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/FakeGCable.html

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on July 21, 2006, 11:17:00 PM
Hi Glen,

I finally got around to ringing Gary. He hasn't seen any faked masterbowls, so that would put an end to it. If they existed, he would have known for sure. He is right up with the faked nappies though.

The very first faked nappy reported went to a friend of his, who had mistaken it for a pastel blue and had paid $300. That collector is very experienced, and didn't pick it up at all - it just goes to show what can happen when you are not expecting a fake.  It has a base which is ground flush to the base (as can be seen on David Doty's page).

All I would note is that people selling a lot of genuine bowls would make themselves more respectable so that they could slip in the odd faked piece.  

Cathy
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on July 24, 2006, 07:04:35 AM
Hi Cathy - thanks for passing on Gary's thoughts. I've also been in touch with several other experienced Carnival collectors in Australia, and we all seem to be of the same opinion, that only the nappies are currently being faked.

A contact in New Zealand told me about a pale blue (non iridised) Kingfisher nappy that appeared on eBay a little while back. I believe it was described as depression glass. Sounds like that probably was the same on that Gary's friend bought. And I agree - yes - it just goes to show what can happen when you are not expecting a fake!

I guess our main way forward is to keep our eyes open for any further developments (while hoping that there aren't any!)

Glen
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Cathy B on August 30, 2006, 02:05:25 PM
290024497367   ? ? ? ? ?

Glen, could this be another fake nappy?

I think it's the same sellers again under a different name. What stands out for me is the ruffling and the thickness. I can't see whether it's got that telltale seam at the rim - it might be a bit thicker at the rim, which would be wrong. ? If it is a fake, they're getting the pattern much better.

As for why I think it's the same seller, the layout is much the same as the other sellers, and the rest of the stock is the same (fake black americana iron money boxes, gramaphones, brassware with Australian place names). I've found about seven or eight user names with nearly identical stock and auction template (often with identical conditions, but they've deleted that for this auction).

Anyway, what do you think about this one?

Cathy
Title: Fake Australian Carnival
Post by: Glen on August 30, 2006, 02:35:24 PM
Hi Cathy - yes indeed! You have reeled another one in. It's a fake alright. It's like my Version B Update (ie the version B with the encircling twigs placed the correct way around).

I think I can see the encircling rim line on it too.

Thanks for alerting me to it.

Glen