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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Gowdod on November 06, 2017, 08:28:21 PM

Title: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: Gowdod on November 06, 2017, 08:28:21 PM
Dear All,

not often to be found and especially one with the " Le petit Caporal ".

I thought particularly interesting with inscription on reverse of sulphide... detailing Patentees.

A little bashed about and what I believe may have originally been a scent bottle....rim level uneven and that just would not have done for this quality of piece. The Sulphide and window remain in great order.

I'm aware that Aspley and Pellatt operated for a good period producing sulphides around 1820's however is there a particular period this inscription might date from please?

With kind regards to you all.

Andrew
Title: Re: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: KevinH on November 07, 2017, 12:30:52 AM
Hi Andrew,

That's an interesting item. Based on the normal size of a sulphide of that type, I agree that the bottle was a scent.

As for the period for the inscription, you may have to settle for 1819 [patent for "crystallo-ceramie" (sulphide)] to 1831 [company name changed to Apsley Pellatt & Co.]

The best summary details I can find on the internet is an article in the pressglas-korrespondez (https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2011-4w-joyce-pellatt.pdf) site.

And also, an entry in The Atheneum dated May 16, 1846 (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tkYxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA490&lpg=PA490&dq=winding+up+Pellatt+%26+Green+company&source=bl&ots=vjrub60O1K&sig=mv1D-kb_QbQBhAMREDYlwAuXldI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwje0bHbmKvXAhVG1RoKHXHoBXAQ6AEIPDAE#v=onepage&q=winding%20up%20Pellatt%20%26%20Green%20company&f=false) mentions "Apsley Pellatt & Co, (Late Pellatt & Green)", showing that Mr Green was connected with the company until the change to Pelllatt & Co.
Title: Re: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: Gowdod on November 10, 2017, 07:38:04 AM
Kevin,

thank you.

Andrew
Title: Re: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: Robin G on November 15, 2017, 04:32:49 AM
New to this message board. Since much of my glass is in the form of salt cellars, and I'm not seeing too many of them here, I thought you might like to see some of mine. This is quite large for a salt and very heavy. The diameter across the whole top is about 7 cm. This piece is in the Jokelson "Sulphides" book. He lists it as possible Pellatt & Green and dates it to c. 1831. Is that book still considered accurate?
Title: Re: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: KevinH on November 15, 2017, 06:15:59 PM
As far as I am aware, Jokelson's 1968 book on Sulphides has not been widely criticised. And my copy has no annotations by previous owners, so they were seemingly happy enough with the content.

Personally I am a little disappointed that the book does not give a great deal of dating information - especially on when sulohide inclusions lost favour.

Perhaps I have missed something in the book, but I have not found a dating reference for the Fig IX ruby coloured salts bearing Wellington and Queen Victoria sulphides (queried as Pellatt & Green). The only reference I have found for Pellatt and 1831 is on page 18 in respect of Pellatt's "second patent of Seotember 9" - which may or may not have a bearing on the ruby salts. If we knew for certain which year Apsley Pellat first used ruby glass (a subject still under discussion elsewhere in the Board), it would give us an earliest year for the production of those salts.

I suppose that a sulphide of Wellington is more likely to have been produced for (or by) Pellat as the French sulphide makers would probably have been disinclined to do so.
Title: Re: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: flying free on November 18, 2017, 05:39:47 PM
Cased red glass from Pellatt in 1831? 
I think that date might be questionable.

Does it have any blurb about the piece in the book please?

many thanks
m

Title: Re: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: flying free on November 18, 2017, 10:00:51 PM
sorry Kev, I've just seen that you haven't found a source for it.

Stupid question I know, but just clarifying the ruby salt from Robin - is it the Duke of Wellington?

This is the nearest picture I could find in dress and with the sideburns (sorry it looked as thought the sulphide person had a moustache).  He died in 1852. 
http://www.explore-parliament.net/nssMovies/01/0158/0158_.htm

I don't know how valid the information in that site is but it says
quote
'However, with the death of George IV in June 1830 there came a mood of change - opposition to Wellington's government rose. After a famous speech declaring his determination to resist reform the government was defeated in the Commons and Wellington resigned.'


Just wondering why Pellatt would make a sulphide of Wellington in 1831 if so?

Also wondering about Pellatt's ability to make red glass at that time.

m
Title: Re: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: flying free on November 18, 2017, 10:20:42 PM
there is some information here (from the State Museum of Illinois?), on this Duke of Wellington sulphide attributed to Baccarat.
http://exhibits.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/barker/gallery/index.php?RollID=group01&FrameID=Ac213322wellington]

In the information under that sulphide it says:

'Allen and Moore sulphide profile portrait of the Duke of Wellington; "A & M" inscribed along base of portrait; set on an opaque white ground overlaid with dark blue.
Allen & Moore was a private mint in Birmingham, England. They struck a coin in 1852 commemorating the death of Wellington; the reverse side featured an angel weeping on the sarcophagus
.'

Is it similar to the red and clear one ?
Title: Re: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: flying free on November 18, 2017, 10:52:46 PM
I just wanted to cross reference the discussion on the GMB under this link
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,31074.msg168279.html#msg168279

It may come in handy at some point.

m
Title: Re: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: flying free on October 22, 2018, 11:24:53 PM
I'm sure this information is known and is on the board somewhere but thought I'd add it whilst I have found it:

On google books on page 326 there is mention of a patent number 4424 of 18th December 1819 for Apsley Pellatt for :
'Encrusting into glass vessels and utensils, white or other coloured, painted or otherwise ornamented figures, arms, crests, cyphers, and any other ornaments made of composition, metal, or other suitable material.'

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iArKCvphWicC&pg=PA325&dq=frederick+hale+thompson+George+Foord&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijy6emlpveAhXmKsAKHVB8D3cQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=Pellatt&f=false
Title: Re: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: Robin G on October 25, 2018, 03:18:44 AM
Don't know why I'm only now seeing some of the replies to my Aspley Pellatt/Pellatt & Green Wellington sulphide set into a red cased large heavy open salt. M, you asked for more more info, plus gave me a great lead to to the Illinois State Museum. One easy question- Yes, I'm sure it is Wellington. It is similar to the John Ford rendition and absolutely identical to the salt pictured in Paul Jokelson's book on sulphides. His identification has a question mark, and no attribution date at all. I asked my husband how we acquired it and what info he was given. I don't know what your rules are about mentioning current dealers. But a big name London dealer came to a paperweight meeting here in the States, c. 1992. He was selling items from the Jokelson collection. At the time J. wrote the book, he did not own this piece, saying it was in a private collection in Paris. But he must have purchased it later. It was shown at Corning, and has a label from them on the bottom. So interesting to see the blue version from Illinois. As you know, their date estimate was 1845-1855, and attribution of the sulphide itself was to Allen & Moore, marked on their piece, but not on ours, perhaps by chipping off where the initials should be. Otherwise, identical. The remaining question is who set the portrait into the final piece. But not a burning question for me. The 1831 date was only spoken by the London dealer, never authenticated in any printed material. Thanks for your research and interest in my piece.
Title: Re: Pellatt & Green Patentees London - Napoleon - Aspley Pellatt
Post by: flying free on October 25, 2018, 08:08:10 AM
Possibly of interest to the original piece on this thread - or maybe not - but thought I'd add it anyway to stimulate some discussion.  See the part I have bolded.
Link to something I found on the net-
http://www.georgianindex.net/Shop/glass/p-gglassmakers.html

Info on that picture of Apsley Pellat's showroom picture includes the following quote:

' ... .  Glass sulphides, also called Cameo Incrustations, are opaque, usually white, medallions or figurines encased in glass and used to decorate clear glass objects. They often appear on the sides of decanters, jugs, bottles and tumblers, and they are a very popular form of paperweight decoration. The name sulphide comes from the use of sulphur in the process of manufacturing sulphides in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. The sulphide itself is usually made from a clay (or ceramic) and glass paste and is completely encased in glass. The early 19th century patents (innovative English glassmaker Apsley Pellatt (1791-1863) in 1819 in England and Pierre Honore Boudon de Saint-Amans in1818 in France) involved opening up a blown glass bulb while it was still molten, and placing the sulphide inside, then sealing up the opening (by pinching together the molten glass) and sucking out the air to draw the glass and the sulphide together. The most famous and successful producers of sulpides were Apsley Pellat in England from 1819 to the mid-century followed by Baccarat in France. Sulphides are sometimes called "Cameo Incrustations" or "Cameo Encrustations" and Apsley Pellatt originally called them "Crystallo-Ceramie". Their popularity as a luxury item was harmed when cheap imitations were made in which the design was pressed into a glass object, leaving an intaglio impression, which was then filled with plaster of paris and glued onto the surface of the glass vessel.

Pillar molding, a variant of the blown-molding process by which ornamental domestic ware could be made cheaply was patented in 1835, by Thomas Green, who gave it the name of Roman pillar moulding. The exterior was corrugated vertically or swirled, while the interior remained smooth. This patent was licensed to others, and a price list issued by Apsley Pellatt illustrates several examples. This was made in color, too.'


Anyone care to corroborate this info?  or expand on it?  Does that process relate to the shapes of the encrustations or other items?  I'm thinking of all the fancy cut bottles with sulphides in them maybe?