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Glass Discussion & Research. No ID requests here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Chris Harrison on February 13, 2007, 03:40:24 PM

Title: Stuart 681307 tumblers and lookalikes
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 13, 2007, 03:40:24 PM
Can anyone identify these, please?
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5074

95mm tall, 75mm diameter. 
I have 4 and they all differ somewhat, so there must be a modicum of hand work in them.

Thanks,
Chris
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: David E on February 13, 2007, 05:20:02 PM
The base 'neck' reminds me of Dema, but I don't think these were produced in colour.
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: nigel benson on February 13, 2007, 08:41:31 PM
Chris,

Do these glasses have a good central ground and polished pontil and is the horizontal ribbing reasonably consistant with being hand made, but with the use of a mold?

Nigel

Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 13, 2007, 10:24:27 PM
Hi Nigel,

Good central ground, but no pontil mark.

The ribbing is slightly different on all 4. 
The glasses show all the signs of having been mould blown, then finished off by fire-polishing (a la Holmegaard Canada, for example), hence the variation.
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Anne on February 14, 2007, 01:53:05 AM
Chris, your glasses have a similarity to my small dessert bowls here...
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5107
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5106
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5105
The blue of mine isn't the same as yours but the style appears similar. No idea who made mine though.  :-\

Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 14, 2007, 11:09:15 AM
You're right, Anne.

Gosh, we seem to be shopping in a lot of the same places :-)

Incidentally, these of mine came in the same box as some (unidentified) SlimJims and some Holmegaard Canada items.
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: nigel benson on February 14, 2007, 02:13:54 PM
Hi,

Anne's bowls are almost certainly Stuart & Sons. My mind is going the same way for the glasses, Chris. Both colourings are correct for that factory and it's what I was thinking for the glasses when I first saw them - although I really should check the catalogues for the shape before being categoric about it.

Often these pieces have a registration mark on the base, but by no means always. Similarly for the Stuart mark. The Reg. mark refers to the ribbing and not the shape of the item.

Nigel
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Anne on February 14, 2007, 04:52:46 PM
Chris, I wouldn't be at all surprised!  ;D

Nigel, thank you, that's good to know. They do appear well-made and the colour is just gorgeous. They don't match anything else I have but I just couldn't resist them! I've peered at the bases of each bowl - there are 7 of them, one with two tiny fleabites on the rim, the rest perfect - and cannot see a Stuart mark (I know how hard they can be to spot so I've looked in different lights and angles with the lens) but one of the seven has a very slightly raised bumpy bit on the base edge, about 3/4 inch long. I'm thinking that it's either where the polishing didn't quite smooth the base properly or it's the remains of a reg mark that's been lost with the polishing... could that be the case?  Were the Reg marks stamped into the glass or surfaced marked/etched onto it? I don't know how non-pressed glass is RD marked.
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Anne on February 14, 2007, 06:47:11 PM
Ohhhh now I've just spotted something else as a result of the link which Frank posted about Stephen P-H's butter dishes...  http://www.ysartglass.com/Otherglass/Nazeing/NazeingG05.htm - picture #53 at the bottom.... shows bowls which look like mine also. Are the Nazeing ones also ribbed like mine - it's hard to tell from the picture?  Mine - http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-5107

Not that I'm in any way doubting Nigel's suggestion of Stuart, but it just strikes me as sensible to double-check something which looks similar.  8)
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: nigel benson on February 15, 2007, 12:44:48 AM
Hello All,

As a result of what you have written above Anne..... "Are the Nazeing one's ribbed like mine, etc".....I am concerned that folks may assume that the new pictures posted under the title of Nazeing suggest that all the glass is indeed Nazeing. It was something that I was already worried about and you've just stimulated me to make comment Anne :)

Having handled many of the items in that find (along with Paul and Christina of Circa Glass) prior to passing on Stephen's name to the owners as the best person to deal with such a large amount of items, I feel that it is sensible to mention that a fair number of items had stickers "Foreign Made" or "Foreign", whilst others were very unlikely to be from the Nazeing factory for a number of reasons (unfortunately best achieved by viewing and handling the items directly).

The find itself is from one of Major Elwell's descendants and represents a cross-section of what he bought as a wholesaler of glass. Sadly, as far as we know all the documentary evidence relating to the purchase and sale of the items by Elwell was burnt. The glass world is therefore left, yet again, with a situation that requires careful analysis, rather than assumption. Furthermore, there is very little in the find that directly links to the published Nazeing catalogues and records.

I am deeply saddened by the situation because it was my hope that this was going to be the absolute proof of the origin of all the items that I, in particular, have hitherto questioned. We are now left having to identify as much as possible from other sources in order to understand what is in the find. Bearing in mind that Elwell bought from a number of British glass companies as well as Czech glass this is a sizeable undertaking, so hopefully GMB'ers will be able to help Stephen in this quest.

Nigel

Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Anne on February 15, 2007, 12:53:02 AM
Nigel, thank you again. That explains very succinctly what wasn't clear from the pages I looked at. I had indeed made the assumption that all the glass was Nazeing rather than it being a collection including Nazeing.  :-\
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Frank on February 15, 2007, 01:37:47 PM
My fault, it was a case of getting the pictures out and organising proper captions later... I will add in anyones thoughts as they come but please keep all feedback in the butter dishes thread here http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,9344.msg79238.html#msg79238
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: sph@ngw on February 16, 2007, 06:40:39 PM
There is one large blue base ribbed bowl in the Elwell haul. Definitely not Nazeing. the quality of our glass was not good until the mid 1950's. We had coke fired skittle pots, lots of contamination, and bubble hence the pastel shades, seed, bubble in the glass which looked intentional. It was not until we employed Ken Northwood and Pip Lang as glass technologists around 1948 ( we have a company photo showing them) that the quality improved. We then invented the single pot furnaces (holding 3/4 ton approx 700kgs) just enough to use in a day and melt overnight. This gave us a major technical advantage over the traditional multi pot furnces in terms of flexibility and fuel savings as well the cash flow to expand and contract one furnace at a time! 
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: nigel benson on February 20, 2007, 05:21:51 PM
Hello again,

I have been able to find the catalogue reference that I mentioned above. Chris's glasses in this thread and Anne's bowl both appear to be from Stuart & Sons, marketed as "Plain Ringed Goods" and both from the service 21696.

I say 'appear', since it says at the top of the page "in FLINT, GREEN or GOLD". This is from Catalogue 51, which is annotated, in my copy, as being from 1939. It doesn't mean that other colours weren't introduced of course.

Nigel
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Anne on February 20, 2007, 07:59:35 PM
Nigel, thank you so much for checking for us. It's very much appreciated. :)
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Heidimin on February 20, 2007, 09:23:23 PM
The ringed base looks very similar to the Stratford pattern pictured in McConnell's C20th Glass (p240) - designed in 1921 and later used for enamelled designs (1928-38).

According to this article, the Stratford pattern was particularly suited to enamelware because the rings gave the shape enough strength in the base to withstand a second firing without wilting:

http://www.manddmoir.co.uk/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/moir?opendocument&part=13 (scroll down to bottom of page)

Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Chris Harrison on February 25, 2007, 04:32:42 PM
Yes, indeed.  Many thanks, Nigel.
Kind of you to take the trouble...
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Chris Harrison on April 21, 2007, 10:40:35 AM
I just bought an auction box containing a Stuart 21696 jug in green and four matching glasses in amber.  These have a ground and polished punty, and are slightly different in height and weight from the blue glasses that started this thread. 

Although they show striations and aren't obviously machine made (no nub on the rim, etc), the blue glasses would seem to match a Dema ad from 1951.

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-6577
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Anne on May 25, 2007, 10:43:56 PM
Chris, I just checked your blue glasses photo against the DEMA advert and although they are very close, the bases look different on the blue ones. They look as if they are slightly wider/thicker than the DEMA ones, or is that just a trick of the camera?

Can we see a photo of the 21696 jug and tumblers too please?  ;)
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Chris Harrison on June 06, 2007, 09:56:18 PM
Hi Anne

Here's the green jug
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7358

and an amber tumbler, along with a (stained) flint trumpet vase from the same period.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-7357

The tumbler is much thicker, heavier and nicer than the blue glasses that started off this thread.

I'm putting up a few additional Sherdley items in my gallery if you are interested...
Cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Anne on June 06, 2007, 11:29:31 PM
Hi Chris, Thanks for the new pics. Yes I see the differences between the blue and amber tumblers... the base is slightly different and the bowl shape is too. The Dema advert is certainly closer to the blue ones, isn't it? Wouldn't it be good if we could find a definite Dema one and put it alongside your other two and do a side-by-side comparison?  :-\
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Heidimin on June 09, 2007, 01:45:36 PM
Thanks for posting the Sherdley pinwheel pics. Looks like a definite match for the 1940 Woolworths advert.

Hats off to you - I don't think I have the patience for comparing pseudo-cut-glass patterns!
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Chris Harrison on June 10, 2007, 09:36:22 AM
I had the bowls sitting in the sideboard.  Been using them for trifle and fruit salad for donkey's years.  When I saw the ad, they jumped out at me.
Won a "free" box of pressed glass at an auction the other week (it got lumped in with the lot I actually wanted).  When I looked, the tumblers were sitting on top.

Title: Etched amber Stuart glasses
Post by: chriscooper on December 16, 2010, 02:29:59 PM
Rather nice set of 5? registered design number 681307 February 1922 all are etched Stuart England but not all have the design number etched on the base. See a lot with the Stratford rings but not with etched/cut pattern.
Just under 4" high, being more of a tumbler shape would they maybe come from a water set with a jug perhaps? rather than a decanter. Any help regarding pattern, possible age, I realise they were made any time from the registration date onwards but maybe someone can narrow it down with the style.

http://picasaweb.google.com/107067405711297858658/Stuart#

Chris :sun:
Title: Re: Etched amber Stuart glasses
Post by: Bernard C on December 17, 2010, 03:47:03 AM
Rather nice set of 5? registered design number 681307 February 1922 all are etched Stuart England but not all have the design number etched on the base. See a lot with the Stratford rings but not with etched/cut pattern.
Just under 4" high, being more of a tumbler shape would they maybe come from a water set with a jug perhaps? rather than a decanter. Any help regarding pattern, possible age, I realise they were made any time from the registration date onwards but maybe someone can narrow it down with the style.

http://picasaweb.google.com/107067405711297858658/Stuart#

Chris :sun:

Chris  - no real evidence for this other than experience, but I associate such simple free-form naturalistic decoration with the post-war period '50s - '70s.

Bernard C.  8)
Title: Re: Etched amber Stuart glasses
Post by: johnphilip on December 17, 2010, 09:11:10 AM
Hi Chris i have the Deco cocktail decanter that goes with them , give you a fiver as its Christmas thats a whole pound each .. Regards jp  :X:
Title: Re: Etched amber Stuart glasses
Post by: chriscooper on December 18, 2010, 02:21:58 PM
Thank you Bernard for that :sun:
Thanks for the offer John boy will give it some serious  thought and get back to you ..................................NO :chky:

Chris

Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Anne on July 27, 2012, 07:22:55 PM
Hooookay! Today I found 4 unlabelled clear glasses in this style, which I bought to compare with my amber Stuart ones. The clear ones are, I think, the Dema machine-made ones.

The clear ones are much thinner and lighter than the Stuart ones. I weighed the clear ones and each one is 100-101g, my scales aren't accurate enough to get closer than that. The Stuart ones vary between 226g - 255g, so much heavier.

Chris can you weigh your blue ones for comparison please?
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: johnphilip on July 27, 2012, 10:28:21 PM
i have no doubt the blue glasses with the rings are Stuart , i also believe the collection of Nazeing was one i uncovered thru a friend  and passed on to other friends as i was going in to Hospital at the time , i have never heard of the outcome of this , but i am pretty sure this is the case , of course i could be wrong . my friend says  :-X
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: ahremck on July 28, 2012, 02:11:58 AM
I too agree, they are most likely Stuart "Stratford" glasses. 

Currently I have a thread running in the glass section [ http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,48421.0.html ] which is to do with blue Stuart Crystal.  Interestingly, while mine has labels on the jug and four of the five glasses, none of the items has a touch mark.  This seems to be so for all of the pieces mentioned so far - I wonder why.   Further the base of the glasses seems a little unusual compared to others of a similar shape to mine.

If you scan through the thread you will find a link to a Stuart catalog I put up on Yobunny where the profile of Stratford glasses is quite clear.

Ross
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 28, 2012, 06:07:56 PM
The blue glasses are definitely Stuart and should be lead crystal
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1659
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1658
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Anne on July 29, 2012, 01:19:56 AM
Those of yours are exactly like my amber ones, Christine, but mine aren't marked at all.
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: johnphilip on July 29, 2012, 04:18:08 PM
Thanks Nigel you have confirmed my thoughts , i nearly said suspicions . ??? I have not looked at this thread for quite some time  , my comment is a tad out of sync .  Look to the future  :-X JP

Nigel may not have known this find came from me ,  sans prejudice .jp
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Chris Harrison on July 30, 2012, 11:49:06 AM
4 Blue tumblers = between 132g and 168g each
4 Amber tumblers = between 174g and 212g each

Both sets of glasses are definitely hand-made.

Holding them side by side (I'll post a photo when my camera has charged up), the amber glasses are nicer - smoother, more regular shape and better-made. No flaws whatsoever, while the blue glasses have a couple of irregularities in the surface, as if they've been touched with a tool whilst still malleable, and one of the rims is slightly wonky.

The amber glasses all have a circular, ground punty.  The blue glasses have had their bases torched.  Three of them have a smooth, slightly-indented base, whilst one has been left flat with a dimpled finish.

amber glasses = definitely Stuart
blue glasses = Norfolk Enchants
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Chris Harrison on July 30, 2012, 12:00:06 PM
Thinking of the Dema advert, I don't suppose there's any chance that they bought and resold glass from other manufacturers?  I seem to find many unmarked pieces attributed to Stuart and Webb, yet read in books that those two marked almost everything that they made. 

I've read a proposition that high-class retailers preferred to sell unmarked glass, but that surely can't account for the proportion of unmarked Stuart and Webb glass that I come across virtually every day?
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Lustrousstone on July 30, 2012, 12:39:41 PM
Marked often means labelled, not necessarily marking on the glass
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Chris Harrison on July 30, 2012, 02:28:47 PM
Ah yes, the little green Stuart labels...
Title: Re: Gorgeous blue drinking glasses - ID please
Post by: Anne on July 30, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
Thanks for the weights, Chris. Yours are lighter than my amber ones. Perhaps Christine might weigh her marked ones if she has them still?

Re the bases, it's interesting that two of mine have large polished pontil marks (226g and 244g) and the other two have flat (torched?) bottoms with striations (234g and 255g). None are marked. In fact very little of my Stuart is marked in any way. Labels may of course have been removed.
Title: Re: Stuart 681307 tumblers and lookalikes
Post by: Chris Harrison on August 06, 2012, 04:51:51 PM
Here's the photo comparison (a bit late, I know...)
Title: Re: Stuart 681307 tumblers and lookalikes
Post by: Anne on August 06, 2012, 05:33:58 PM
You must have picked up my thoughts Chris! I was just thinking we could do with seeing yours side by side, and the same with my amber and the clear ones, and here they are!

Side views
Top rims
Base views
Ring detail
Title: Re: Stuart 681307 tumblers and lookalikes
Post by: Chris Harrison on August 08, 2012, 02:39:02 PM
Any conclusions?

It seems as though they could all be Stuart, with three kinds of finish to the base (including Christine's fancy, flat-ground ones)...  Perhaps three different grades for different retailers?  Or three different manufacturing processes, depending on the era?

The size and quality of my blue glasses is definitely a bit off, in comparison.
Title: Re: Stuart 681307 tumblers and lookalikes
Post by: Lustrousstone on August 08, 2012, 03:37:08 PM
Are your blue ones lead crystal?
Title: Re: Stuart 681307 tumblers and lookalikes
Post by: Chris Harrison on August 08, 2012, 03:41:53 PM
As best as I can tell, yes.  They do ting when I tap them with a pencil, but the sound is a lot thinner  cos there's less glass.  It's certainly not the dull sound you get with mechanically-produced soda glasses.
Title: Re: Stuart 681307 tumblers and lookalikes
Post by: Anne on August 09, 2012, 04:05:01 AM
My clear ones are definitely cheap and cheerful soda glass, they don't ding in any way. And are way too thin to be crystal.

I suspect all three of the coloured ones are Stuart, perhaps they made the moulds slightly smaller for some reason (use less glass?) in the same way as chocolate bars seem to get smaller every time you see them?
Title: Re: Stuart 681307 tumblers and lookalikes
Post by: Lustrousstone on August 09, 2012, 06:41:08 AM
There was definitely a move in some places to use less glass. See these bagley butter dishes
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=104
Title: Re: Stuart 681307 tumblers and lookalikes
Post by: Anne on November 11, 2012, 04:17:37 AM
An interesting addition is that today I saw another of the clear glasses like mine... an odd one... with an acid-etched (I think) design on it, commemorating the Coronation of Edward VIII in 1937, which makes them way earlier than I'd imagined them to be! Sadly I found it shortly after Christine and Sue had left, so wasn't able to pick their brains about it! :(
Title: Re: Stuart 681307 tumblers and lookalikes
Post by: Chris Harrison on November 11, 2012, 05:49:58 PM
...and I've just added a few turquoise/kingfisher coloured glasses to my Stratford collection.  Of the smaller variety, with torched bases, like the blue glasses that started the thread - but a different shade of blue, obviously.
Title: Re: Stuart 681307 tumblers and lookalikes
Post by: Anne on February 04, 2013, 04:25:18 PM
One thing I spotted which I'd previously overlooked, is that in the catalogue which Ross added to the GlassGallery album, there are two sizes of tumbler in this shape!  http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-15703