No-one likes general adverts, and ours hadn't been updated for ages, so we're having a clear-out and a change round to make the new ones useful to you. These new adverts bring in a small amount to help pay for the board and keep it free for you to use, so please do use them whenever you can, Let our links help you find great books on glass or a new piece for your collection. Thank you for supporting the Board.

Author Topic: Testing densities (split from Re: Black & White Hound Dog)  (Read 3470 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9508
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Europe
    • Gateway
Re: Testing densities (split from Re: Black & White Hound Dog)
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2008, 12:58:22 PM »
Suitable laboratory measuring cylinders/beakers sell on eBay quite cheaply, ones large enough to immerse a 10 inch vase not so often but they do turn up occasionally with huge postage costs. I skipped buying one on eBay as the 15kg postage made it too expensive.

A simple solution to the meniscus problem, for large vases etc, fill any container (any material) large enough until the meniscus is proud of the rim and then spoon enough out water into the object, as the level goes down a larger scoop can be used until it is possible to fill the vase and then using a wire holder lower the full vase slowly in to the container until immersed and the water displaced over the rim of the container. Now add sufficient water to bring the level up again to the starting height again. Slowly remove the vase. Now refill the container with measured amount of water and you will have the volume.

To decrease water loss in the process one drop of a wetting agent (washing liquid is ok but avoid turbulence) to reduce loss from water sticking to the scoops and the vase on removal. This should give a reasonably accurate measurement. Temperature balance is important but just leaving the water and item in the same place without drafts for an hour or two should be sufficient.

It is probably best to use distilled water too.

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline KevinH

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • *
  • Posts: 6545
    • England
Re: Testing densities (split from Re: Black & White Hound Dog)
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2008, 02:10:00 PM »
Distilled water made absolutely no difference to my own tests. I found that there was no noticeable change to results from those using ordinary tap water (which in my chalk-ground location is a hard water).
KevinH

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9508
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Europe
    • Gateway

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline David E

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 3908
    • Heart of the Country, England
    • ChanceGlass.net
Re: Testing densities (split from Re: Black & White Hound Dog)
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2008, 06:37:46 PM »
Phew, pity this is in Birmingham, Alabama... not England :-\

But my only reservation is the 250ml graduations, which makes this too imprecise. There is undoubtably a more precision vessel with smaller graduations, but probably very expensive.
David
► Chance Additions ◄
The 2nd volume of the domestic glassware of Chance Brothers
Contact ► Cortex Design ◄ to order any book

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Offline Frank

  • Author
  • Members
  • ***
  • Posts: 9508
  • Gender: Male
    • Glass history
    • Europe
    • Gateway
Re: Testing densities (split from Re: Black & White Hound Dog)
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2008, 07:30:22 PM »
You need to measure between the graduations and calculate the in betweens, equally accurate as what ever you use to measure. Vernier calliper can give you accuracy of about .1 mm.

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline tropdevin

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 2569
  • Gender: Male
    • Paperweights
    • England
    • The Paperweight People
Re: Testing densities (split from Re: Black & White Hound Dog)
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2008, 02:59:55 PM »
I wrote an article for the PCA Bulletin a couple of years ago which covered in passing some of the issues in this thread about measuring density.  I have set out an expanded version below.  My belief is that for anyone trying this at home, the 'weight in air and weight in water' method is easier and more accurate than measuring the mass and the volume separately.

Density and Specific Gravity, and the accuracy of measurements

Specific Gravity (SG) is a measure of how the weight of something compares to the weight of exactly the same volume of water, and is a pure number.  Density is a measure of the mass of a substance in a given volume, measured for example in grammes per cubic centimetre (g/cc). Because the density of water at 4 deg C is 1.000 g/cc, the numeric value of density and specific gravity is the same at 4 deg C.  So we do not really need to worry too much about the difference when talking about paperweights.  It is easier to type or say ‘density’ than ‘specific gravity’ !

The commonest method of measuring the SG of paperweights is to measure the weight in air, and then the weight when immersed in water.  This allows us to calculate the SG: the apparent change in weight is due to the upthrust from the displaced fluid, and is equal to the weight of the same volume of water as the paperweight.  There is a very small upthrust from the air when measuring the weight in air, but this is tiny, and we can ignore it. This method has the advantage that the measuring scales need not be accurate, provided they are linear and correctly zeroed! Linear means that if you weight two laboratory 1000g weights and get 1000g for each, you ought to get 2000g for the pair weighed together.  The reason that the absolute value does not matter is that the calculation depends upon the ratio of two measurements - so they can be eg 2% wrong, and it has no effect on the calculated SG.  The absolute method - ie weighing the item in air and determining the volume by displacement of liquid - is fine theoretically, but requires an absolute measurement in each case.  The scales must be spot on - if they read 2 % wrong, then your density will be 2% wrong. And the difficulty of making an accurate determination of the volume has been rehearsed earlier in this thread - it is fraught with inaccuracies.

It is not difficult to overcome some of the difficulties described for the immersion method. I use a rod fixed to a pivot at one end, resting part way along on a knife edge on a pair of electronic scales. The item is suspended in a cradle of plastic coated garden wire at the free end.  The reading on the scales is adjusted by moving the knife edge so that the highest reading possible is obtained in air - that way the errors are reduced. The plastic coated wire does not absorb water. And when the apparatus is ready to go, you 'tare' the scales to zero.  Then add the item - you get a 'weight in air reading (A)'.  The bring a jug of water up from below to immerse the item - you get a 'weight in water (W)' reading.  The SG is calculated as A/A-W. eg A=500, W=350, SG = 3.33. If the item is the same density as water, then W will be zero, and you get SG =1.00. Note that units are cancelled out, and absolute measurements are not required - suject to the caveats above.

What about the effect of water temperature?  At 20 deg C, the density of pure water has reduced to 0.9982 g/cc, because  water expands as it gets warmer. So too does the glass of a paperweight, but water expands more rapidly than glass at temperatures around 20 deg C.  So, for example,  if a paperweight and a jug of water are warmed from 20 deg C to 25 deg C, the water will expand more than the glass, and the density of the water will decrease  more.  A paperweight at 25 deg C immersed in water at 25 deg C displaces slightly more water (the paperweight increases in volume by around 135 parts per million) but because the water is less dense, the upthrust from the water decreases by 1050 parts per million.  So the apparent weight in water is greater, leading to a higher calculated specific gravity figure (915 parts per million) – roughly one part in a thousand for a 5 deg C change in temperature. But as long as we know the water temperature we can adjust our measurements – and anyway, a couple of degrees will not make a significant difference.

What about the purity of the water?  Water does vary in density depending what salts are dissolved in it, but the difference between distilled water and typical tap water is very small – about 30 parts per million at room temperature, and can be ignored for the purposes of this article. 

Measurement accuracy.  This is very important.  A typical Old English paperweight weighs about 500g, and has a density of about 3 g/cc. The apparent weight when submerged in water will be about 330g. Provided we take care to minimise systematic errors, then the greatest accuracy we might achieve in an individual measurement using non-specialised equipment is a tenth of one gram: if the true SG were 3.000, our measured value could then vary between 2.997 and 3.003. That is about plus or minus one part in a thousand – similar to a 5 deg C change in water temperature.  If our accuracy is no better than about half a gram, our measured value would vary between 2.985 and  3.015. That is about plus or minus 5 parts in a thousand, and is far larger than any of the other factors discussed above. This range can be reduced somewhat by taking the mean of several repeated measurements, but accuracy and reproducibility are the most important factors when measuring SG. Indeed, repeating measurements from time to time on the same weight is a good test of the reproducibility of the measurement system, and I have done this with satisfactory results.

Alan

Alan  (The Paperweight People  https://www.pwts.co.uk)

"There are two rules for ultimate success in life. Number 1: Never tell everything you know."

The comments in this posting reflect the opinion of the author, Alan Thornton, and not that of the owners, administrators or moderators of this board. Comments are copyright Alan Thornton.

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Offline krsilber

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 1019
  • Gender: Female
Re: Testing densities (split from Re: Black & White Hound Dog)
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2008, 12:44:26 AM »
Interesting method.  Took me a while to work through the physics of it, it's been so long.  You're measuring buoyancy to find specific gravity, it sounds like - is that right?  What about the buoyancy of the wire net, do you account for that somehow?

Thanks for sharing your article with us.  Very informative.  I don't suppose you have a photo of the system on hand, do you?

For the "old fashioned" way of measuring water displacement, as long as the vessel containing the water is relatively straight-sided, measuring from the top or the bottom of the meniscus, as long as one is consistent about it, would be more precise than trying to measure volume by filling the vessel to the top and having to deal with surface tension.  One of the few things I remember from chemistry class.

Another thing you can do if the vessel is cylindrical is calculate the volume of water displaced, rather than try to measure it.  Volume = Pi X radius2 X height, where height is the difference between the height of the water column before and after the glass is added (a good use of those vernier calipers!).  A cylindrical plastic juice pitcher is big enough for many types of glass items.
Kristi


"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science."

- Albert Einstein

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline KevinH

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • *
  • Posts: 6545
    • England
Re: Testing densities (split from Re: Black & White Hound Dog)
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2008, 01:11:50 AM »
As I am still awake in the early hours, I will give a response to a couple of things, but maybe Alan (and Derek) will add their own comments later.

Quote
What about the buoyancy of the wire net, do you account for that somehow?
The "net" that Alan uses is actually a minimal setup with just a couple of loops of the plastic-coated wire. It therefore has negligible effect on the bouyancy.

In my own experience, I prefer a more substantail "net" but that does have a danger of affecting the measures if there is a lot of material. However, another paperweight collector who has also measued SG (density) has given me a sample of what she has used and claims no problem - it's a ladies' stocking sock, which does not absorb water, is of minimal weight and gives a full support of the item being measured. I have yet to try it for myself though (been meaning to for at least a year!!).

Of course, whatever "net" is used, the balance has to be "tared" first (as Alan has said) with the "net" in place. The main issue with bouyancy is to ensure that no air is trapped beneath or within the object being measured, or within any links in the "net", when it is set in the water.

Quote
I don't suppose you have a photo of the system on hand, do you?
A simialr system is used by Derek, who also posts in this board. He showed a photo of the system in another message, but it was a tinypic image and has now disappeared. Perhaps Derek can resurrect it for us? In the meantime, the message, which veered off into an earlier discussion of SG measuring may be worth looking at:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,13465.msg87635.html#msg87635
KevinH

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Sklounion

  • Guest
Re: Testing densities (split from Re: Black & White Hound Dog)
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2008, 01:50:13 AM »
Oh boy,
KevH in stockings.......... :o :o :o
Marcus in (birthday) suit being relatively dense???????
we could have some serious (not/maybe) fun here.........
Anne, GMB calendar 2010 suggestions ?? ;D ;D
M


Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline krsilber

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 1019
  • Gender: Female
Re: Testing densities (split from Re: Black & White Hound Dog)
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2008, 05:05:48 AM »
Hey, I'm all for Marcus in his birthday suit - go Marcus!  Go Kev!  Show dem legs...:hiclp:  :thup::hiclp: :hiclp: :chky:

Quote
The main issue with bouyancy is to ensure that no air is trapped beneath or within the object being measured, or within any links in the "net", when it is set in the water.

But what if your net acts like a psuedo-bubble?  The specific gravity of something like a stocking would be lower than glass, right?  Even if you tared out its weight, it's still a part of the equation because it won't stay constant when immersed.  You could get around that by measuring the specific gravity of the stocking...or could you?  Wouldn't it float? ;D  Hmm, maybe if it was fishnet...

This is all kind of hypothetical.  I don't know what degree of error is acceptible for these things, or whether that might make a difference.  Now there's a thing to test - effects of different holders.

I still can't visualize the set-up.  I'm bad at that kind of thing. 
Kristi


"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science."

- Albert Einstein

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk
Visit the Glass Encyclopedia
link to glass encyclopedia
Visit the Online Glass Museum
link to glass museum


This website is provided by Angela Bowey, PO Box 113, Paihia 0247, New Zealand