Topic: Huge lime yellow Vase with red handles (Chinese ?)

[krsilber]

"This discussion is now getting to a point where it could be better split out as a separate topic" True, although I wonder how much longer it will last.  I'm surprised others are still following it!  It's great to discuss these rather esoteric semantic issues; I'm glad people are interested.  One day in the not too distant future I might write an article about some glass terminology for Frank's Glass Study site, and it's good to know that I'll get some lively discussion here when I prepare for it.

Now then, enamel twist...I Googled (now there's an example of our changing language!) and see the term is in common usage.  My take on that is that "enamel twist" is itself a term, and it doesn't mean that we can now interpret "enamel" to mean opaque glass.

As for arbiters of definition, I suppose we could always use a glass dictionary writer like Newman.  Convenient for me, since he rejects the use of "enamel" to all but "vitreous fusible pigment used in surface decoration"!

"Lets start calling glass metal then, glass is so misused "  Hee hee, that's silly!

Uh-oh ... the V&A no less mentions "rods of white enamel" in a discussion of how enamel twists are made (http://www.vam.ac.uk/school_stdnts/schools_teach/teachers_resources/glass/glass_projects/stems/index.html).  Should I admit defeat?

[Frank]

Defeat? It is always useful to thrash these semantics around, they serve a double purpose - helping the newbie to understand glassmaking and its variety. For the older hands it helps us keep all those tidbits of knowledge fresh and relevant and to remember the bits we forget about, or even get lazy about!

[krsilber]

Oh, man, I just have to add this to the discussion:
http://cgi.ebay.com/THERESIENTHAL-ENAMBLED-9-INCH-CHAMPAGNE_W0QQitemZ180234502724QQihZ008QQcategoryZ29556QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[aa]

Lets start calling glass metal then, glass is so misused

Presumably you are referring to the fact that "Metal" is/was used to describe the molten glass in some factories, although I think this was more prevalent in factories that no longer exist, so there may be a dateline or generational cut-off involved. (More due to market factors than the fact that they could not distinguish between glass and metal! )

[Frank]

Metal certainly goes back to the sixteenth century, most recent term I heard from a glass technologist a couple of years ago was Melt as a generic for batches. Specifically: "We (Moncrieff) made the Melt for Paul Ysart in Harland, I still have his recipes."

[krsilber]

"Metal" is a pretty common term for molten glass here, at least among those interested in glassmaking.  I looked it up in Newman yesterday, and surprisingly (to me) the definition included solid glass, too.

[aa]

Maybe it's yet another US/UK difference in terminology, but I must admit I'm a bit skeptical (feel free to provide references and prove me wrong!).  I've never heard of enamel referred to as anything but the stuff painted on in liquid form, and that's in English books as well as American.  The powdered color marvered into glass is frit (ground glass), which is a component of enamel.  Enamel also contains a flux to lower its melting temperature so it will fuse when low-fired.  I imagine a variety of liquids has been used over the years to make it paintable; Newman describes it as "oily."

Since enamel is a form of glass, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference, but I agree with the others that in this case the handles (and inner glass layer probably) were rolled in frit to give them their color.

Sorry - none of that helps with identification!  If I had to guess, I'd say Chinese. 

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,21477.20.html

I presume that mtpaul is based either in US or Canada, in which case reference provided as requested!

[krsilber]

Mt Paul's from Alaska.  But I meant written references, and have found them on my own.  I found a CD on ebay with about 15 old glass books the makers had photocopied and saved as pdf files, including Pellat's Curiosities of Glassmaking .  Quality isn't tremendous, but a lot cheaper than the real thing.  Euriskodata, Inc. is the company, if anyone's interested in checking it out.

I had a feeling I'd have to swallow some of my words on this one; I thought I'd already choked down some from the early post Adam quotes.

I still think it's needlessly confusing to use "enamel" for anything but a paintable medium these days - in fact, I think I misunderstood mt paul's message.

[Frank]

...including Pellat's Curiosities of Glassmaking .  Quality isn't tremendous, ...

Coming soon to a Glass Study near you in HIGH quality and of course fully searchable and annotatable.

[KevinH]

Regarding Pellat's "Curiosities of Glass Making" ...

What's the situation with copyright? The original work is clearly outside the standard copyright period. But "The Ceramic Book Company, Newport - Mon - England", published a 1968 Reprint of the book (no ISBN)and stated "Copyright reserved in all countries".