Topic: Hey pedantics - more semantics! crystal and rock crystal (+ a game of sorts)

[krsilber]

Two questions, unrelated but coincidentally having a word in common, so they get to share a thread.

Here in the States we commonly call colorless glass, "crystal."  I've been on the verge of doing it here many a time, then catch myself, wondering if I'll boggle someone's mind unnecessarily.  Do youse reserve the term for glass that's at least 24% lead (and is that by weight or volume)?

Second question:  It is normal here to call engraving that is entirely polished, "rock crystal."  Does it have other connotations there?

Both these terms (or the context they were used in) were coined and/or commonly used by glass companies.  Neither of them is strictly accurate.  They are examples of the way a lot of glass terminology evolves, not using new words, but using words in a new way that might be misleading if you took it literally.

flint glass
Depression glass
flower frog
Bristol glass

Here's my challenge:  think of words or phrases used in the glass world (makers, collectors, sellers, whatever) that just don't make sense.  Maybe they were accurate once, but have come to mean something else.

  Kristi

[Cathy B]

In Australia, colloquially, people will use the word 'crystal' to describe cut glass with some lead content. Antique dealers extend that to all glass with some lead content.

There's mention of definitions of 'crystal' and 'semi-crystal' in some of the Tariff Board deliberations from the 1930s, but I can't recall the exact details, being no pedant  . Will try to remember to look it up! (In 1936, there was a quite a fight over importing crystal blanks for cutting. A group called Aura Crystal imported mostly Kosta blanks of 'semi-crystal' for cutting, but were whacked with massive tariffs at the behest of the Australian Glass Manufacturers Co Ltd. Crown Crystal had promised them a batch of test blanks back in the early 30s, then kept making excuses. The batch never appeared, of course.) 

Flint glass also is used to mean glass with lead content; however, the Crown Crystal catalogues have 'flint' to describe the colour of clear pressed glass which apparently has no lead content. Crown, of the Australian Glass Manufacturers group, held a monopoly in Australian pressed glass over much of the 20th Century.

Strangest of all, some people (including my grandmother) call pressed glass 'crystal', and colourless glass 'white'.  :huh:

[krsilber]

Flint glass means lead glass here, too, although for some reason it's only used for Early American Pattern (pressed) Glass.  I know Steuben used the term for their crystal crystal, and I'm sure others did, too, but Depression and Elegant makers used "crystal" for any colorless glass (and got us Yanks all screwed up). 

I heard that the original flint glass was called that because it was made of flint, super refined silica.  True?

[krsilber]

I've been reading about American cut glass lately, and was reminded of Cathy's comment.  Glassmakers talked about the whiteness of the blanks, meaning the clarity.  Collectors today of cut glass describe good glass as "water white."

A great example of glass terminology being full of nonsense!  Thanks, Cathy!

Methinks it's too hard to come up with examples when you want to, they have to present themselves.  They're there, though, I just know it.

How about "dip mold"?  You're not dipping anything.

This isn't an entirely pointless exercise for me, dippy as it sounds.  It's all part of an exploration into geographic variation in terminology, about which I may one day write an article as part of Frank's Glass Catalogue project.  I'd post it here, too, of course.

"Rock Crystal" - Entirely polished?

[KevinH]

For "flint" see the Archives forum where many members discussed the term back in 2005.  Click here for the message

As for "dip", one the basic meanings is, "put or let something down quickly or briefly in or into (liquid)" [from an edition of the Concise Oxford English Dictionary]. The fact that the word "liquid" is set in brackets indicates that the dipping is not necessarily into any substance at all. So "dip mold" is a perfectly reasonable term for something that is "dipped into".

Suggesting that glass terminology is "full of nonsense" seems a bit strong!

[krsilber]

Thanks for the link, Kevin!  That was a very interesting thread - I wish I'd been around when it was going on.  The summary post Frank wrote confused me a bit, saying flint was used as an alkali, but his last sentence fit right in with my topic:

"It is interesting the way that a word with a specific meaning gets adapted, presumably for marketting purposes to become almost meaningless (effectively)."

My comment about glassmaking terminology being full of nonsense was facetious.  "Dip mold" isn't a good example of it, but Frank made the same point I'm making (if I have a point).  I've had several discussions lately in various places about terms like these, so it's in the front of my mind, and what seems evident and interesting to me may not be so to others.