Topic: HELP? Please identify this cute little vase? Legras? Daum? Czech? OR repo?

[Frank]

I've asked a number of times if Legras has been reproduced. No one seems to think so.

I have posted info here before on the fake cameo including Legras.

[Sklounion]

"
Mike, when you say it's not the quality of legras, how exactly do you mean?"

"I'm interested to hear about that, too.  I know very little about Legras, but offhand, my impression is that this vase seems heavier and thicker, and the enamel thinner than most of the Legras I've seen.  It's still a pretty piece, though."

The main comment I wanted to make is that ebay is not a good source of information, especially when one is looking at things that one is not already quite knowledgeable about.  Ideas, leads, general impressions it may be okay for, but far too often people use it as they would a well-researched reference, and I think that's a grave error.  (Well, maybe not "grave"...how about momentous?  Catastrophic? Roll Eyes Grin)  (Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine that's at a particularly peevish pitch.)

Not being funny here at all, but the answer to these questions is not to be found in books, and/or ebay.

There is NO substitute for handling glass, both originals and copies, fakes and similars.

Books and photographs are a means to an end, but hands-on experience is not something that can be published in any format.

Mike, and others, have that experience, and can only impart that aspect of their knowledge when you meet them, discuss and handle the glass together. (Having met Mike,  I know he is genuine, passionate and extremely knowledgeable about a wide range of glass and very approachable, so go see him at a fair soon)

Books are a poor substitute, as you NEVER truly gain the appreciation of dimensions, thickness of glass, coarseness of workmanship or manufacture, or indeed, the subtle finesse of the great makers, engravers etc....

All that comes with experience, and accumulated knowledge, and is often difficult to explain.

Regards,

Marcus

[aa]

There is NO substitute for handling glass, both originals and copies, fakes and similars.
Books and photographs are a means to an end, but hands-on experience is not something that can be published in any format.
All that comes with experience, and accumulated knowledge, and is often difficult to explain.
Regards,
Marcus

Very well put, Marcus. 

[Lustrousstone]

I quite agree, that's why I enjoy real glass shopping (rather than online) even when I can't find anything I want or am prepared to afford

[krsilber]

I agree as well.  Unfortunately where I live there just isn't the opportunity to handle a wide variety of glass, and I don't have the means to buy much at all.  There also aren't many people here to learn directly from.  Since it's true that books and the internet aren't very good at describing typical characteristics of glass or differences among glass by different makers, I look to those who have handled the stuff enough to be able to tell me something about it...which is one reason forums like this one are so valuable.  Plus you can ask questions!*

Though books and the internet aren't a substitute for handling glass, the vast range and quantity of photos out there can, I believe, give one an "appreciation of dimensions, thickness of glass, coarseness of workmanship or manufacture, or indeed, the subtle finesse of the great makers, engravers" even if one never has the opportunity to handle a piece by a particular maker.  However, it helps greatly if one has handled a lot of other glass, seen LOTS of photos, has a good understanding of glass manufacture and decoration, and especially important, an eye for detail.  There are plenty of people out there who've handled a lot of glass and still don't know much about it.

Kristi, I've asked a number of times if Legras has been reproduced. No one seems to think so. The only items I use as reference are those that are marked Legras. Ebay isn't my only source of course. I've been looking a pics all over the net. Some of the legras stuff is quite crude. Some of it is very intricate.

I didn't mean to suggest that you were going about your "research" (in quotes because I've been chided in the past for using the term too loosely) blindly or indescriminately.  It was a general comment more than one directed at you.

"Reproduced" to me means a piece/pattern/design has been directly copied.  Even if it is the case that Legras hasn't been directly reproduced (besides their cameos), there are pieces out there that are signed Legras that weren't made by them.  This page shows one fake signature:  http://www.libertys.com/glass.htm - not a huge sample size, but when you consider that every other major art glass maker has signed fakes, why would you expect Legras to be any different?



*One thing I've long wondered about is whether large (covering nearly the whole bottom) ground and polished pontils are typical of French makers (or a specific one).

[Sklounion]

This page shows one fake signature:  http://www.libertys.com/glass.htm - not a huge sample size, but when you consider that every other major art glass maker has signed fakes, why would you expect Legras to be any different?

Who made/ posted/ discovered, the ID of the fake?
A little unusual that only one possible example exists, and that suggests not fake, but bad-hair day...............
If a site posts a so-called fake, tell the public why, when, who...........
The real question is  as you exactly point out,  "why would you expect Legras to be any different?"
Because there is little, or no evidence??
Sorry Kristi, it really may be that simple.
Or I am simply stupid.... 
Marcus

[Frank]

Much of the info on fakes is in books not on the web.
Much of the fakes are on the web(ay) not in books.

[Galle]

Mark Chervenka's books on fake and forged marks do mention that Legras marks were faked. If a piece is unmarked, it's darned hard to prove it's trying to be a fake anything. I don't think the problem is reproduced (unmarked) Legras, more often you might see folks saying something is Legras that isn't. So what is this piece? Based on the flat bottom and in comparison to other pieces I've handled, all I can venture is that it is an attractive, nicely painted vase. I don't think it's Legras, Daum,  I'm even skeptical about Czech - but I can't say for certain what it is.

[krsilber]

This page shows one fake signature:  http://www.libertys.com/glass.htm - not a huge sample size, but when you consider that every other major art glass maker has signed fakes, why would you expect Legras to be any different?

Who made/ posted/ discovered, the ID of the fake?
A little unusual that only one possible example exists, and that suggests not fake, but bad-hair day...............
If a site posts a so-called fake, tell the public why, when, who...........
The real question is  as you exactly point out,  "why would you expect Legras to be any different?"
Because there is little, or no evidence??
Sorry Kristi, it really may be that simple.
Or I am simply stupid.... 
Marcus

The site I posted a link to was just one I happened across a few weeks ago, and recalled when reading this thread.  I agree, it would be nice if there were more info.  Assuming it is a genuine fake (how's that for an oxymoron), the fact that they only show one fake signature doesn't mean that only one exists, though, just that they aren't commonly found.  I know very little about Legras, so I'm in no position to judge whether there are fakes on the market.  I guess it just surprises me that there is little or no evidence of them, considering Legras often goes for a nice chunk of change.  How good is the documentation of their designs?  Could it be that fakes are out there, just not recognized as such?  As Azelismia pointed out, their decoration is quite variable, as are the signatures.  Are the pieces so distinctive that one could identify a fake? 

I'm not trying to challenge anyone about this, I'm genuinely curious.   In the glass world a lack of evidence is often temporary.

EDIT:  I saw Warren's post after writing this post. so what I wrote didn't take his into account.

[Frank]

The question should where have all the fakes gone and I expect a lot of then are in circulation as genuine just not recognised as fake. It is worth buying fakes when you get the chance, easy to get cheaply on eBay, as studying them hands on is vital to understand the processes. I have bought and sold many over the years.

One auction I visited in the 1980's had over 80 French cameo, all described as genuine. A friend specialising in this area told me that only 4 were the real thing and that this volume was normal at provincial UK auctions. So the reality is that there must be thousands in circulation from crude alterations to sophisticated copies made to deceive.

In the US there is good documentation of the moulds that were used and passed from company to company. For some reason this is less well documented in Europe - possibly because of language barriers  but also many moulds would have been liberated during warfare as part of the spoils of war and no-one documented these movements. No doubt many of these will come to light as more and more catalogues go on-line, allowing comparisons between factories.